Explain 'meta' to me.....

[Heraclea]

@SwitchFade wrote, in another thread, that:
 

Quote

 

...Brute meta is.....! *Wait for it*

 

 

Scrappers.

 

I had always understood 'meta' in this context to mean things like design philosophies and goals, and general knowledge of how things worked or were supposed to work.  Like for instance, in CoH the payoff for a completed, well made character is basically god-mode, and that this is a key difference between CoH and other games.  The game about the game.  This generally resembles the use of the 'meta-' prefix in other contexts. 
 

Lately I've been seeing this come up in other ways -- this is only an example -- that I am having a hard time parsing.  Please explain what this means to you.

[nihilii]

I gather in recent years, the meta- prefix got increasing use in competitive gaming cultures; and because PvP games tend to have (to an extent) a rock-paper-scissors approach, the word "meta" has become synonymous for player trends in choices.

 

i.e., the CoH "meta" could be SS/Fire Brutes for AE farming and TW/Bio Scrappers as generic power build. Kinda like the way we used to use FoTM. But the word "meta" can also be used about IO slotting and Incarnates (implicit comparison to past times where a lower % of the playerbase would use IOs and Incarnates). Or in the way SwitchFace uses it: "the proper Brute nowadays is a Scrapper".

This is how I understand it as an outsider, anyway.

Edited May 13, 2020 by nihilii

[Silverado]

I've seen META described as "Most Effective Tactics Available" in other games. 

 

In CoH, even though most builds can bring *something* to the table, there definitely are builds and power combinations that are much, much more effective than others. However, that only matters if you're running midgame 25 to 40ish Arachnos, Longbow, or Vanguard missions. It's irrelevant at level 50 where you can literally have a Shit Smearing/Shit Slinging Defender be a god through incarnates and temps.

 

Edited May 13, 2020 by Silverado

[Vulpoid]

My understanding ( as an academic outside the game) is that meta is a prefix that denotes "after or within."
So, the game of the game, as it were. The inner workings. The man behind the curtain. The study of the thing.
But you knew that already.😉

Edited May 13, 2020 by Vulpoid

[Blastit]

48 minutes ago, Silverado said:

I've seen META described as "Most Effective Tactics Available" in other games. 

 

In CoH, even though most builds can bring *something* to the table, there definitely are builds and power combinations that are much, much more effective than others. However, that only matters if you're running midgame 25 to 40ish Arachnos, Longbow, or Vanguard missions. It's irrelevant at level 50 where you can literally have a Shit Smearing/Shit Slinging Defender be a god through incarnates and temps.

 

That's a backronym. Meta comes from the meta-game, the game about the game. It originates in competitive games where what other people are playing is a big concern. So you could take the most broadly powerful option to a competition, or you could take an option that specifically beats the most broadly powerful option even though it might be worse against other things. If fire is super popular you bring water, even if you lose against electricity.

 

CoH isn't really a competitive game, as such, but what other people are playing does impact the value of other ATs and sets. If the majority of people are playing sets that grant more than enough +def to themselves then support sets that grant +def are less valuable. If the majority of people are playing things that can lock enemies down, personal survivability is less valuable and you'd get less bang out of picking a Tanker over a Stalker.

[Greycat]

I never meta alt I didn't like?

[Apparition]

6 minutes ago, Greycat said:

I never meta alt I didn't like?

Not even a Gravity/Dark Controller with Dimensional Shift, Black Hole, and Wormhole, and wasn’t afraid to use them? 😛

[Greycat]

1 minute ago, Apparition said:

Not even a Gravity/Dark Controller with Dimensional Shift, Black Hole, and Wormhole, and wasn’t afraid to use them? 😛

Nope.

[Mr. Vee]

as a side note - 'metaphysics' as a term came to be used to describe the sorts of things aristotle discussed in the book he wrote after (meta) the physics. 

[DougGraves]

In Guild Wars 2, meta means the best builds.  The people using the term mean pvp or raids or something else which they rarely define.  They just assume that everyone wants to do the same thing they do and so there are best builds that do that thing.

 

Meta for farming in CoH would be a fire brute with full IO sets.

 

It is not a question of what is viable, or good, or reachable by the average player.  It is the best you can get as measured to 3 decimal points.

[Peacemoon]

I tend to think of “the current meta” as “the current state of play”.
 

E.g. given the current state  of gameplay/powers/balance (the current meta), high damage is really strong.

 
 

[tidge]

1 hour ago, Blastit said:

 Meta comes from the meta-game, the game about the game.

^This.

 

In the context of CoH, "meta" could be applied to build concepts; i.e. "Slot a Panacea proc in Health" (because +health/+Endurance refills those tanks without thinking), timing power recharges specifically to trigger "procs".  It could be about play decisions like "Run DfB until level 22" or "Please pass the star to a level 50" or even "WST, double merits!". It could be about using the SGPasscode to travel faster.

 

One of the more meta-meta things to do is to be an iconoclast. See "Petless Mastermind".

[Heraclea]

53 minutes ago, Veelectric Boogaloo said:

as a side note - 'metaphysics' as a term came to be used to describe the sorts of things aristotle discussed in the book he wrote after (meta) the physics. 

Knew that too.  😉

[Chuckers]

I always thought this was meta:

[pyrocumulus]

The metagame, i.e. the game-of-the-game, involves playing the game as played by actual players as a separate strategic layer over and above the game's underlying mechanics.

 

In competitive games, this produces a cyclical game of rock-paper-scissors of game balance in addition to the mechanical game balance.

 

For example, in a tabletop wargame:

1. If 60% of the playerbase play one faction, "Super Knights", if you design a tabletop army skewed to exploit weaknesses of that faction you will have a greater than average win rate at tournaments, even if your army is not otherwise optimised by the inherent rules of the game.

2. If the strongest faction against the Super Knights is the Death Witches, many players will start playing that faction.

3. The Death Witches are now thought to be OP by the game studio, who bring out an expansion that includes models that can cast counterspell.

4. The player community now all include counterspelling as a basic requirement of an effective tournament list, because now so many people own a Death Witches army.

 

This can be seen in pretty much any game that incorporates 'perfect imbalance' design:

 

In a PvE game like COH, metagame refers to 'what is the game, through the filter of the perceptions and playstyles of the player community' - e.g.:

-Is endurance consumption an issue, or is it a solved problem with IOs?

-Is the "game" the experience 1-50, or 50+ incarnate?

-Is a purpled-out build a 'normal' game experience?

-Are control, healing, and buffs useful?

 

So saying 'what is the meta build' is a shorthand for 'which AT/powerset/IO build is considered to currently be most effective, in the environment of the game as it currently played, by the player community'.

Edited May 14, 2020 by pyrocumulus

[Heraclea]

3 hours ago, pyrocumulus said:

In a PvE game like COH, metagame refers to 'what is the game, through the filter of the perceptions and playstyles of the player community' - e.g.:

-Is endurance consumption an issue, or is it a solved problem with IOs?

-Is the "game" the experience 1-50, or 50+ incarnate?

-Is a purpled-out build a 'normal' game experience?

-Are control, healing, and buffs useful?

 

So saying 'what is the meta build' is a shorthand for 'which AT/powerset/IO build is considered to currently be most effective, in the environment of the game as it currently played, by the player community'.

So, while the characters I tend to enjoy most are melees like tankers, brutes, and scrappers - but I don't usually bring them to Hami raids because I see them as being less useful there.  Especially compared to the ice/plants blaster I usually bring - a character I started to claim a punny name -  because I thought that character would have useful skills for the event? 

 

Likewise, I am reluctant to bring a tanker or brute to the BAF, because trying to tank the AVs means not getting to participate, and tanking is irrelevant on the prisoners segment?  I do have one tanker I will bring: the one with Quicksand.  That at least gets to play at one point of the raid.  But the rest of the time I feel like I am just being carried? 

 

And I just tend to avoid the Apex TF, because I don't like that feeling?  This is 'meta', then? 

Edited May 14, 2020 by Heraclea

[Blastit]

4 minutes ago, Heraclea said:

So, while the characters I tend to enjoy most are melees like tankers, brutes, and scrappers - but I don't usually bring them to Hami raids because I see them as being less useful there.  Especially compared to the ice/plants blaster I usually bring - a character I started to claim a punny name -  because I thought that character would have useful skills for the event? 

 

Likewise, I am reluctant to bring a tanker or brute to the BAF, because trying to tank the AVs means not getting to participate, and tanking is irrelevant on the prisoners segment?  I do have one tanker I will bring: the one with Quicksand.  That at least gets to play at one point of the raid.  But the rest of the time I feel like I am just being carried? 

 

And I just tend to avoid the Apex TF, because I don't like that feeling?  This is 'meta', then? 

Thinking about what you'll bring to a game event because of how that event works and what other people bring to that event is metagaming, yes. Avoiding playing something because you just don't like it isn't metagaming. That's regular gaming.

[pyrocumulus]

34 minutes ago, Blastit said:

Thinking about what you'll bring to a game event because of how that event works and what other people bring to that event is metagaming, yes. Avoiding playing something because you just don't like it isn't metagaming. That's regular gaming.

 

To me, the important part of this is the context of what other people bring to the event. Metagaming is decision making based on what other people in a multiplayer (PvE) or competitive gaming environment are doing, or you think/expect they will do.

 

It gets muddy, because it can't be divorced from mechanics gaming decisions, and the context of "what is the game" changes both the raw numbers and the metagame.

 

Consider - Is a FF defender useful?

[Heraclea]

3 hours ago, Blastit said:

Thinking about what you'll bring to a game event because of how that event works and what other people bring to that event is metagaming, yes. Avoiding playing something because you just don't like it isn't metagaming. That's regular gaming.

Well, the reason why I don't like Apex is because I don't think tankers or brutes have much of a role in the last battle.  It's all constant headless chicken mode.  You can't get a lock on the AV or stand up to her.  I'd be more useful as a blaster.  Sad, because Battle Maiden is a personal favorite.  I would boycott the TF on old live because I thought such content should be discouraged.  Now that we're probably stuck with it and it'a unlikely to be repaired, I just avoid it. 

[SuperPlyx]

3 minutes ago, Heraclea said:

Well, the reason why I don't like Apex is because I don't think tankers or brutes have much of a role in the last battle. 

I think your job is to taunt her out of the blue death patch so melee can move back in.

[Nemu]

1 minute ago, SuperPlyx said:

I think your job is to taunt her out of the blue death patch so melee can move back in.

And the controller/dominator's role is to spam immobs on BM cuz immobs do damage/set up containment!

 

"Team dynamics be damned, I saw a fire/kin farm video one time on the internets and by god I'm gonna play dat way all day err day."

[Pherdnut]

Meta is things about the larger thing. e.g. metadata is data that describes the data, like a property that describes the type or category of data that you're looking at. MMO players (possibly P&P RPG players originally) have somehow re-branded meta to mean popular build theory !@#$.

[pyrocumulus]

33 minutes ago, Pherdnut said:

Meta is things about the larger thing. e.g. metadata is data that describes the data, like a property that describes the type or category of data that you're looking at. MMO players (possibly P&P RPG players originally) have somehow re-branded meta to mean popular build theory !@#$.

"Metagaming" in tabletop RPGs refers to using outside knowledge to influence in-character decisions.

 

If my DM starts drawing a battle map for the PCs' audience with the duke, we will suspect something is afoot. In character, though, of course we can see the layout of the duke's audience chamber. It would be metagaming to then take actions (say, casting Shield) based on the expectation of being attacked.

 

In this case, you are still playing the game-of-the-game; you are basing your reactions on players' emergent gameplay (you expect a fight because the DM never ever draws battlemaps for flavour), not anything in the mechanics (perception checks) or narrative (the duke has just lied to you).

 

I believe the MMO usage has drifted across from the wargame/CCG usage I described above.

[Snowdaze]

Ok, so is "Explain Meta to Me" the CoH version of "Talk dirty to me"?

[SuperPlyx]

2 hours ago, Nemu said:

And the controller/dominator's role is to spam immobs on BM cuz immobs do damage/set up containment!

Hey,if she's held and taking damage all the better. But if your there,have taunt and she can be , wouldn't you?