Weekly Discussion 53: How to Increase Villain Population

[Mister Mass]

Just now, Apparition said:

All of my characters are exclusively the Rogue alignment and I have never been kicked from a team when going to Ouro or using a base when doing or even leading a blue side Task Force or Trial.

Yes, this bug seems to have been squashed.  I was recruiting for a red side SF yesterday, & one of the team members was sure that he was going to get dropped because of this - & was astonished when it didn’t happen.  I was mildly surprised that anyone still thought it did.

[Peacemoon]

35 minutes ago, Apparition said:

All characters already have access to all the zones.  Really, unless you are playing a Dominator that needs the Villain alignment power, there is no reason to be any alignment other than Rogue or Vigilante.

 

The problem is that a lot of people really don’t want access to all of the zones.  Almost every single time I recruit for a SF, I get someone sending me a tell along the lines of “I am in!  How do I get to Cap au Diable/Sharkhead Isle/Grandville?”  I will reply back, “Great!  Go to Pocket D and find a seagull on top of a box truck on the red side.  Ask him to make you a Vigilante.  Once done, here’s how you get to...”

 

Almost invariably, I will either never hear back from the person, or get a tell back along the lines of, “My SG is calling.  Sorry.” 😆

You’re right, but just shows that the question of villain population is also one of “why don’t players like playing in Rogue Isle”.

 

I’d argue it has more to do with the Rogue Isle than being a villain conceptually. I’ve seen a lot of ‘hero’ character who conceptually might have been better suited to being a villain, but they probably want to team with others and play in Paragon City.

 

I think it would be cool if we could tell people’s alignment easier. Maybe more people are Rogues and Vigilantes than we think?

[MTeague]

On 5/31/2020 at 3:12 PM, Greycat said:

They had all the way from issue... six? to shutdown, and that didn't happen. (Honestly, for me the reverse was true. There's *so little* variety to redside, it feels like you're just going to do the exact same thing over and over again with another character. Blueside I can do the hollows, or investigate the Skulls, then head into Skyway or Steel for different contact chains, do Faultline or not, hit Talos or IP for different groups, hit Striga or send my magically-iunterested folks to Croatoa... Redside its the same... thing... over... and...over.  If any side leads to burnout, it's redside.

To be fair, that issue isn't lack of ZONES.  It's lack of varied CONTENT.  

 

I think @Yoru-hime is spot-on here.  We need new villain story arcs, spanning different aspects of villainy.  

I'm fine with it if the "Contact" for such arcs is something like a tip as opposed to a regular contact we run back to.  Maybe each mission complete, it removes that tip and adds the next tip for the "arc"?That might help keep the immersion factor going that it's YOU planning it, not Marshall Brass, etc.

• We have plenty of arcs where the character is a simple brute looking to smash to make a profit.  Those stand well on there own, so please do not bother creating any similar arcs until there's a better parity of content. 
• Villain story arcs where the player is making a grab for power.... ON THEIR OWN BEHALF.  Not something to strengthen Arachnos.  Not helping Victor Von Grunn do mad science, so that HE can have a devouring earth army (seriously, what's my motivation to help a potential rival like that?)  Not for something as simple or tawdry as coin. But something where I'm looking to become king of the hill.  
  • lower level arcs, maybe you just flatten some lower level rivals... Family, Legacy Chain, etc. 
  • mid-level example:  what If *I* find out about the ChonroMetroTron and make a play for it?  Sure I can't get it, or if I do, I'll find out Penelope Yin already told it not to work, but hey, what villain wouldn't at least make a go for that?  Again, not for Arbiter Sands, not for Arachnos, but for for personal power. 
  • lvl 50 ish, I'd want to actually attempt to DEPOSE Recluse.  Or attempt something Darrin-Wade style that would make Arachnos entirely irrelevant.  Even if I have to be predestinted to fail, scripted to be defeated, and then permitted to live to savor my defeat, or allowed to live out of respect that I'd had the stones to make the attempt. At least let me TRY, even if I have to be thwarted by a railroat plot twist. 
• Villain Or Rogue arcs to build an alliance of NPC's. like Echinacea, or Polar Shift, maybe even Flamebeaux.  And Definitely Zephyr and Crosscut.  Those guys were fun to work with.  I'm "meh" on the rest of the Hearts of Darkness but Zephyr and Crosscut?  Yes please use them more.  And make sure to give me OPTIONS during the arc.  Give ME the choice to honor the alliance if my villain values his word of honor, or options to betray the alliance, if I'm more "thank you for being a useful idiot".  I'm seeing this mostly in a Magneto-y way where he builds up his Brotherhood of Mutants.  It would allow each villain player to have his own personal timeline where THEY get to be the big bad organizing it. 
• Some Revenge Arcs would be good, but.... those are tricky. Everyone's villain is going to have their own motivation for what they want to strike down, and why, and the why may be several times more important than the what. 

 

[Eva Destruction]

1 hour ago, Mister Mass said:

Yes, this bug seems to have been squashed.  I was recruiting for a red side SF yesterday, & one of the team members was sure that he was going to get dropped because of this - & was astonished when it didn’t happen.  I was mildly surprised that anyone still thought it did.

You do get dropped if you go into a PvP zone though, so make sure you click the right black helicopter.  Ask me how I know.

[Eva Destruction]

Some people here seem to be under the impression that taking things away from heroes will entice more players to go redside.  I think it's more likely to make them leave the game.  Getting rid of Null the Gull is an especially bad idea; fewer people will go vigilante if it requires actual effort, which means an even smaller pool for redside teams.  Every time I form an SF I get at least one "you cannot invite an enemy," usually more than one; plenty of people who play blueside will come over to red when there's something happening, the last thing we need to do is make it harder for them.

[Yoru-hime]

9 minutes ago, MTeague said:

That might help keep the immersion factor going that it's YOU planning it, not Marshall Brass, etc.

That's why I loved Brother Hammond's arc. Even if it's a small-time scheme, I'M the villain. Everyone else is MY patsy and pawn. I'm the one walking away a winner, leaving everyone else holding the Idiot Ball. The souvenir for that arc makes me smile every time I see it.

 

In the end, unless you're living in AE and writing your own story arcs, yes, agency is always going to be an illusion, but it's one that I feel makes the story of a villain much more satisfying than 49 levels of being someone else's goon.

[MTeague]

On 5/31/2020 at 6:37 PM, Glacier Peak said:

They are called "Defeat All". No killing required.

Everyone with Katanas and Dual Blades and Battle Axes seems to think its "De-Feet All".

[Oginth]

So in the end, there is no point of having red-side. This not a RvR game, you don't need two factions, Heroes don't need Villains to have fun/resources. Classes are not exclusive. Even if there are ways to convince people to start and stay red, the problem is that they won't be enjoying the game.

 

HC devs are not full-time devs, we can't expect/request too much. Maybe, change the mission text/NPC dialogue to make it less like you are just a dumb lackey? Change the skybox? Whatever changes HC devs may be capable of, are unlikely to fix the problem which should have been fixed by Cryptic and NCSOFT.

[Troo]

Are the alignments coded to the content? This could be quite a bit of unraveling to accommodate a request that takes almost as much time to type as it takes to do in game.

[Sakura Tenshi]

I feel like Redside content is higher quality in general, there's still just not enough of it, also the 'unlocking contact' is actually a good idea, but it can get annoying since some of the things to unlock them can mean you miss them in the level range, and they are some of the cooler arcs. A prime example of this is that, even discounting the Shadowshard, blueside still has more than double the TFs than Redside (which probably strangles WSF selections). And I admit, there's a bit of a gravity effect going on: more people I know play mostly blueside, so I spend more time blueside.

 

Yes, aesthetics is another factor into things though: Redside zones are incredibly ugly. Yes, they're meant to be, but just because you make something terrible on purpose doesn't make it less terrible. Especially with Arachnos' bizarre fondness for unnecessary, exposed utility pipes (like, seriously, in Recluse's victory, Villain controlled zones ADD THEM to existing buildings with functional utilities already, it's apparently a fetish), Arachnos' nonsensical base layouts (even council make sure there's stairs and ramps to every damn level), and the perpetual gloomy skies. Praetoria shows us a world run by villains (because, let's be honest, no matter how you feel about loyalist faction, the praetors were ultimately villains) can look pretty and ironically be somehow more open to flagrant crimes (seriously, you can start icing seers, PPD, clockwork workcrews, right in the magisterium.)

 

Lastly, there is the matter of 'there's a million ways to be a villain', though this is softened with rogue and straight villainous aligned content.

Edited June 2, 2020 by Sakura Tenshi

[Redlynne]

10 hours ago, Redlynne said:

 

I pulled this snapshot of the server population just a few minutes before posting this reply (which, granted, is early morning North America time, but it still illustrates the point).

 

Torchbearer ... 3.86 to 1 Heroes

Excelsior ... 6.22 to 1 Heroes

Indomitable ... 3.44 to 1 Heroes

Everlasting ... 3.76 to 1 Heroes

Reunion ... 4.06 to 1 Heroes

Total ... 4.47 to 1 Heroes

And here is what the server population looks like ~12 hours later in the early evening North America time, same day ...

 

 

Torchbearer ... 5.65 to 1 Heroes

Excelsior ... 7.22 to 1 Heroes

Indomitable ... 4.95 to 1 Heroes

Everlasting ... 3.60 to 1 Heroes

Reunion ... 4.81 to 1 Heroes

Total ... 5.22 to 1 Heroes

 

So irony of ironies, it looks like (today) the ratio of Heroes to Villains improved on only ONE server ... Everlasting (go figure, eh?) ... while all of the other servers see greater Hero numbers than Villains.

 

Note that if the total Heroes (2040) to Villains (391) across all servers were balanced "better" at even a 4 to 1 ratio we'd be seeing (2040+391)/4=608 Villains instead of 391 Villains across all servers, and only 1823 Heroes instead of 2040 ... using these latest numbers.  That would amount to a +55.5% increase in Villain population(!) but only a -10.6% decrease in Hero population, if the overall alignment balance across all 5 servers was a 4 to 1 ratio instead of the 5.22 to 1 ratio that I'm seeing here.

 

So when people talk about worrying that Players switching from playing Heroes to playing Villains will somehow meaningfully reduce the majority of Players continuing to play Heroes ... I honestly don't think there's a whole lot of merit to that argument.  Yes there is a zero sum game of -1/+1 in absolute terms as far as that goes, but the difference in proportions is really asymmetrical.  It's basically at the point where adding +1 Villain to Redside is "worth" adding +5 Heroes to Blueside, in terms of proportional impacts to the population density right now.  So on that score, I'd say that "cannibalizing" as little as 5-10% of the current population of Players to switch from Blueside to Redside would be something the game as populated now can "afford" to do without impacting the community health on Blueside while dramatically improving the community health on Redside.  In other words, you don't have to convince EVERYONE to play Redside, but convincing even a few people (5-10%) would make a significant difference to the Redside community.

 

 

 

Which is another way of saying that Heroes are a dime a dozen and making another Hero won't make much difference in the overall scheme of things.

But making another Villain?  Oh yeah ... more Villains will DEFINITELY make a difference!  😎

[cranebump]

Bane Spider Rubens arc, where you lead that massive group of villains into that LB base isn’t simply awesome. It’s epic. You’re definitely not a lackey there.  Outside playing that one capstone story mish as Cole/tyrant curb stomping Recluse’s invasion force solo, that’s about as badarse as I’ve ever felt in the game due to a story arc.

Edited June 2, 2020 by cranebump

[tidge]

3 hours ago, MTeague said:

• Villain story arcs where the player is making a grab for power.... ON THEIR OWN BEHALF.  Not something to strengthen Arachnos.  Not helping Victor Von Grunn do mad science, so that HE can have a devouring earth army (seriously, what's my motivation to help a potential rival like that?) 

[MTeague]

1 hour ago, cranebump said:

Bane Spider Rubens arc, where you lead that massive group of villains into that LB base isn’t simply awesome. It’s epic. You’re definitely not a lackey there.  Outside playing that one capstone story mish as Cole/tyrant curb stomping Recluse’s invasion force solo, that’s about as badarse as I’ve ever felt in the game due to a story arc.

You definitely START that mission as a Lackey. I mean, you're literally being hired byArachnos to run an errand for them.

However it ends much much better, as they realize their "hired help" has an agenda of their own. 

 

Spoiler

Oh? And what makes you think you'll be getting the Engine??
    Ruben grows silent for a long moment.
    Character, I have a team en route to sweep through the Meeting Grounds as we speak. The Suggestion Engine will be confiscated as Arachnos property...
    Ruben trails off, sighing heavily.
    ...but they're not going to find anything there, are they?
I'm afraid not.

 

[cranebump]

Heroes are usually serving someone else’s agenda, as well. But that’s the expectation. You’re there to serve others.

 

As for Redside, considering you get to break stuff, rob banks, off people in missions, I think the selfish douche baggery quotient is fairly high. People have already mentioned Tip missions as a way to fill the more “gray” void between.

 

Another thing about being a vill: I thought you also also got a shot at taking out your patron, but it’s been a long time since I ran redside past lvl 30 or so.

Edited June 2, 2020 by cranebump

[nightroarer]

4 hours ago, Eva Destruction said:

Some people here seem to be under the impression that taking things away from heroes will entice more players to go redside.  I think it's more likely to make them leave the game.

Agreed. I do have some villain characters for a change of pace. But I much prefer playing heroes. It is not even a matter of quality of content, events, enticements, or what have you. I just like being a good guy. 🙂

 

For players who like playing heroes simply because they like heroes better than baddies, I don't think there is much you can do to get them to switch over. Diminishing the gameplay for hero players to try to push them redside would be a monumental mistake.

 

It is entirely possible that the lack of population on redside is not strongly related to the quality of content, but just that more players prefer to play heroes in general.

 

Note: I'm not knocking the idea of making improvements redside; adding content to any and all sides is a win-win in my book.

Edited June 2, 2020 by nightroarer

[Redlynne]

4 hours ago, Eva Destruction said:

Some people here seem to be under the impression that taking things away from heroes will entice more players to go redside.  I think it's more likely to make them leave the game.  Getting rid of Null the Gull is an especially bad idea; fewer people will go vigilante if it requires actual effort, which means an even smaller pool for redside teams.

This is the explicit reason why at no point have I (personally) advocated for the elimination of the Null the Gull option.

Instead, I look for ways to reward PCs for committing to playing Redside content as either a Villain or a Rogue AFTER the 7 day countdown for a Tip Morality Mission is completed.  It doesn't "push" anyone into playing Redside, but it does reward them for sticking with it in the Level 20+ bracket (because you have to be minimum Level 20 to get Tips).  That way, you avoid the "Day Trading in Villainy" option via Null the Gull for making better rewards on Redside "too accessible" so as to reserve them for people who commit to playing Redside content on a longer term basis.  You want a carrot ... not a stick ... to encourage a small fraction of the people playing Blueside to decide for themselves that playing on Redside might be worth their while.  You don't need to convince EVERY Blueside Player to switch (and stay switched) to Redside, and indeed you wouldn't want to bring over EVERY Blueside Player(!) ... but if you can bring over even as little as 5-10% of the Blueside population to Redside, that will make a pretty dramatic difference in the Redside population, without affecting the Blueside population all that much.

[Redlynne]

On the topic of changing out the skyboxes for varying the world lighting in zones ... I kind of have to wonder if enabling any kind of minor randomization factor would be a good thing to do for all of the "normal" city and island zones.  Basically, have tables of the skybox being randomly chosen to be one out of a short list of options for that specific zone.  Being able to go from clear skies to cloudy skies via such a system wouldn't enable actual zonewide RAINFALL in City of Heroes/Villains (and Rikti bombing raids don't count as zone weather!) ... but it would help dispel the sense of Eternal Sameness™ to the day/night cycles we have in zones right now.

 

Unfortunately, enabling such a feature could potentially be a rather daunting undertaking ... another one of those things that is easy to say in a post, as well as being easy to visualize in the mind's eye, while being a matter byzantine demonology to try and convince the underlying game engine programming to provide without wrecking everything.  Easy to Say but Hard to Do (and all that).

 

Still, if it could be done, it would make for a decent Quality of Life upgrade not only to the Rogue Isles but also to Paragon City and Praetoria (proper, not First Ward and Night Ward or the Shadow Shard) if rolled out more broadly than just merely implementing it for the Rogue Isles only.

 

Some days are sunny.

Other days are cloudy.

And then there's the sewers ... because we're ALWAYS going to have the sewers ...

[Sailboat]

I guess I'm just not cut out to be a villain, because the question doesn't move me.  Why would we (collectively) want to increase villain population?  A significant portion of the hero side pop is hero side because they don't want to be villains.  I can understand why a given player might want more company v-side.  But as an organization,  Homecoming seems to be all about indulging individual preferences.  Why would Homecoming try to change what people play?

 

Furthermore I  constantly see people concerned about the population overall, heroside included.   Unless we're bringing in new, villain-only players, any increase reside just comes out of blue side, which is already nervous about losing players.

 

Real life is chock-full of villains.   I come here to punch them because the consequences of assault are daunting.

 

Redsiders, please have your fun and don't mind me, I'm just cranky.

 

Edited June 2, 2020 by Sailboat

[Naraka]

5 hours ago, Redlynne said:

This is the explicit reason why at no point have I (personally) advocated for the elimination of the Null the Gull option.

Instead, I look for ways to reward PCs for committing to playing Redside content as either a Villain or a Rogue AFTER the 7 day countdown for a Tip Morality Mission is completed.  It doesn't "push" anyone into playing Redside, but it does reward them for sticking with it in the Level 20+ bracket (because you have to be minimum Level 20 to get Tips).  That way, you avoid the "Day Trading in Villainy" option via Null the Gull for making better rewards on Redside "too accessible" so as to reserve them for people who commit to playing Redside content on a longer term basis.  You want a carrot ... not a stick ... to encourage a small fraction of the people playing Blueside to decide for themselves that playing on Redside might be worth their while.  You don't need to convince EVERY Blueside Player to switch (and stay switched) to Redside, and indeed you wouldn't want to bring over EVERY Blueside Player(!) ... but if you can bring over even as little as 5-10% of the Blueside population to Redside, that will make a pretty dramatic difference in the Redside population, without affecting the Blueside population all that much.

The fatal flaw in your prospecting solution is...you can just make an alt red.  Whatever benefits you impart to "staying red" are funneled into said alt if that benefit is desirable and then those that simply wanted the goodies go back to their blue mains.

 

I feel the main misconception that people are making with regards to "population" is that people that are playing their heroes?  They often have villains too.  It's just they aren't playing those characters...or they are but they're doing "Day trading in Heroism".

 

The other issue might be you're gunning to punish the latter villain players as well and for what reason?

[cranebump]

Well, I am now convinced to play redside exclusively on my next toon.:-)

[Gulbasaur]

The broker system punishes people who want to run story arcs by forcing five generic missions before unlocking a contact - rework it to one or two, please! It's a shame, but many of the good story arcs are behind grind-gates like that. 

 

Null the Gull is cheating. 

 

Being able to play any archetype on any side from the start is... eh. It sort of breaks down the differences between them. 

 

[Redlynne]

55 minutes ago, Gulbasaur said:

The broker system punishes people who want to run story arcs by forcing five generic missions before unlocking a contact - rework it to one or two, please!

That's an exaggeration.  The Broker system is a solid pattern of 3 Newspaper missions enable 1 Mayhem mission after which you are introduced to a new Contact.  3+1 does not equal 5.

[ArchVileTerror]

I'm in the process of writing a much larger reply, but just wanted to state:

3 Newspapers/Police Radios for Levels 5 to 19,

5 Newspapers/Police Radios from Level 20 up.

[cranebump]

Can't you just use the "Teleport to Contact" function, if you want to proceed into missions without using the broker? Then those contacts can direct you to other contacts.

 

Assuming I'm correct about the TP part.

 

And then there's the flashback system, as well.

Edited June 2, 2020 by cranebump