'Tough Enough' - Tanking Theory

[SableShrike]

This is why I love SR on tanks so much!  You hit 45% Defense to all positions without even trying and can Incarnate cap easily.

 

Resist set bonuses are also easy to find, meaning you become crazy tough while not even building for it.  Just chasing +recharge bonuses usually nets you 25% bonus resist to everything.

 

Why +recharge bonuses?  Cuz it lets you keep Recharge enhancements off your slower recharging attacks; this means they fire IO damage procs almost all the time.  This nets at least 70-210 bonus damage with three damage procs.  Those are huge numbers for a tanker, and it can almost double your DPS output.

 

So yeah, being “tough enough” means you can turn SR tanks into DPS proc buzzsaws.  My favorite for this has turned out to be Dual Blades, but a lot of sets work well with it.

 

DB attack chain I use: Blinding Feint > Attack Vitals combo + Typhoon’s Edge (in a big group of mobs).  Blinding, Ablating, Vengeful, Sweeping, and Typhoon’s.  Five attacks total and the ones you need let you use Empower and Weaken when exemplared.  I don’t use Nimble Slash unless exemplared and only have an Accuracy in it.

Edited June 15, 2020 by SableShrike

[marcussmythe]

Id be curious to see your build!  When I get a little happier/more polished with mine, Ill throw it out here.

[Infinitum]

On 6/12/2020 at 5:11 PM, Hyperstrike said:

To the question of "Tough Enough?", I say HERESY!
Gold standard for survivability is still a Stone Tank in Granite.

Nonsense, Curbs > Granite

 

1. Shield Invul or Rad

2. Elec Armor or SR

3. Everything else

[Hyperstrike]

12 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

Nonsense, Curbs > Granite

 

1. Shield Invul or Rad

2. Elec Armor or SR

3. Everything else

A curb and a Granite are an eternal stalemate.

[killigraphy]

That was the main problem when IO sets first came out. Everyone with money thought they were the cock of the wok due to steroids....

 

Tons of team deaths ensued, and a bad tank kept moving on. I don't want to see or hear that your tank in "unkillable" or that you can tank Recluse with no problem....Incarnates + IO sets break the game, and thats fun for a bit, but the delusion it brings, is the real problem.

[Marshal_General]

With melee characters I know I have the damage as that us what they are about, so I focus on getting the defenses and resists up. With tanks I know I have the defenses and resists, so I feel I should be focusing on maxing my damage.

[clucks2]

On 6/12/2020 at 8:48 AM, Hjarki said:

The basic notion you're stumbling at - that excess mitigation is, well, excess - is reasonable. However, you have to strike some balance if you're going to do your job - and a lot of those balances aren't a particularly efficient approach.

 

I think the easiest way to approach the problem is to make a list of "can I tank this?". No build can tank everything. Some things to think about:

• Can your build exemplar down to Positron? Numina?
• Can your build tank Lord Recluse without the towers being down?
• Can your build survive the mass -defense debuffs of ITF and certain DA content?
• Can your build tank Hamidon?
• Can your build efficiently farm?

You might also consider how much in the way of temporary powers/consumables you need to do your jobs. Anyone can 'tank' with enough Inspirations, temporary powers and panic buttons. But if you're leaning heavily on these abilities, you're going to find that you often can't be as effective as if you weren't.

 

Rad/ss can do all of those with only Hamidon being an issue. +4/8 Any mob type. Literally any! (Rularuu made me edit this post, not sure how that would turn out tbh)

 

Edited June 16, 2020 by clucks2

[Gobbledigook]

15 hours ago, Infinitum said:

Nonsense, Curbs > Granite

 

1. Shield Invul or Rad

2. Elec Armor or SR

3. Everything else

I would put Dark Armor up with Elec armor at least and they may even be in the tier 1 slot with rad armor or very very close.

 

With the right slotting and power choices most sets can be exceptionally tanky though.

[Hjarki]

47 minutes ago, clucks2 said:

Rad/ss can do all of those with only Hamidon being an issue. +4/8 Any mob type. Literally any! (Rularuu made me edit this post, not sure how that would turn out tbh)

I think a lot of people are missing the point of why I made that list. It's merely an example of questions you need to ask about a build to ensure you're hitting the right balance.

 

A good (simple) example of this would be fire farms. All you need is Fire Resist, Fire Defense and regen/healing. But your goal with the build isn't to get as much as possible. It's to get the bare minimum necessary to survive the farm so you can put everything else into raw offense.

 

Now, I know from long experience that the 'bare minimum' for that particular purpose is hard-capped resists, 20% or so Fire Defense and a standard slotting of uniques coupled with the random amounts of regen you get from set bonuses you'd pursue for other reasons. But you'll still see a lot of builds soft-capping their Fire Defense because they're 'over-engineered' - they just assume they need all that superfluous defense instead of finding the sweet spot where they can then shift focus to offense.

 

The same is true for general tanking, but it's more complex because you're dealing with a wide array of potential attacks. Which is why you need to break down what those potential attacks are and how much they matter - so you can avoid inefficiently investing in mitigation you don't actually need.

[clucks2]

10 minutes ago, Hjarki said:

I think a lot of people are missing the point of why I made that list. It's merely an example of questions you need to ask about a build to ensure you're hitting the right balance.

 

A good (simple) example of this would be fire farms. All you need is Fire Resist, Fire Defense and regen/healing. But your goal with the build isn't to get as much as possible. It's to get the bare minimum necessary to survive the farm so you can put everything else into raw offense.

 

Now, I know from long experience that the 'bare minimum' for that particular purpose is hard-capped resists, 20% or so Fire Defense and a standard slotting of uniques coupled with the random amounts of regen you get from set bonuses you'd pursue for other reasons. But you'll still see a lot of builds soft-capping their Fire Defense because they're 'over-engineered' - they just assume they need all that superfluous defense instead of finding the sweet spot where they can then shift focus to offense.

 

The same is true for general tanking, but it's more complex because you're dealing with a wide array of potential attacks. Which is why you need to break down what those potential attacks are and how much they matter - so you can avoid inefficiently investing in mitigation you don't actually need.

If you have 20% defense on a fire farm you will die, unless you rely on greens/purples, which would be less efficient than only needing reds... But to your point, I'm all for only getting what you need. I definitely feel like most people tunnel on obtaining certain stats and end up going overboard.

 

When it comes to tanks, it gets tricky... I personally build mine to be more than just taunt bots but you will definitely find those people that literally just want to stand there and taunt. I completely ignore defenses on my rad/ss because it doesn't NEED defense, I have hard capped resists to all besides cold, absorbs, heals, like you said, the defense isn't needed. A lot of people try to also get defense and it makes their character nothing more than a meat shield.

 

It's 3:41 am here in Hawaii, I'm stuck in a work call, pardon my wordy response.

[marcussmythe]

Im tanking down in things like Posi on my ‘tough enough’ invuln - even with no taunt and relying on whirling hands for AOE aggro, its been fine so far - only deaths were leeroy jenkins spiritual successors on my team (very common when Incarnates exemplar down - we forget what mortality is!) 

 

So far for me 85% S/L, 60% E/N, and down in the 30s for Psi/F/C, along with defenses that only softcap when invincibility is fully saturated has proven ‘tough enough’ that Im reconsidering whether I want to spend the time and flu to do an alternate pure tank build after all (though there may be a respec for easy exemplar in the works).  Ill try to tank more ‘hard stuff’ at the top, and once defensive incarnates are filled out, will report back if T4 melee/barrier/resilient swaps are enough for such things.

[Seed22]

2 hours ago, Gobbledegook said:

I would put Dark Armor up with Elec armor at least and they may even be in the tier 1 slot with rad armor or very very close.

 

With the right slotting and power choices most sets can be exceptionally tanky though.

imo. Rad has everything Dark has but majorly better. Better end management, a perma-able absorb shield, a much better T9...oh and better end management.

Edited June 16, 2020 by Seed22

[Gobbledigook]

29 minutes ago, Seed22 said:

imo. Rad has everything Dark has but majorly better. Better end management, a perma-able absorb shield, a much better T9...oh and better end management.

Hard to beat a full heal every 8-10 seconds. Far faster heal recharge than Rads.

Endurance is a problem but it can be overcome easily with incarnates and Theft of essence.

The T9 in rad is nice but it doesn't do much if your resists are capped already.

Dark armour only needs to take 6 out of the 9 powers to be really good.

 

The only thing Rad has better is endurance but Dark has better healing.

 

Don't underestimate the Dark side 🙂

Edited June 16, 2020 by Gobbledegook

[Bopper]

On 6/12/2020 at 8:00 AM, marcussmythe said:

(More broadly - Im starting to fall in love with having 3 builds.  Maybe 'Solo/Maximum Offense' on the outline above, 'Survival/Max Defense' on the classic set-bonus chasing approach, in case incarnates and teammates arent enough, and finally a 'How do I live my best life in the Caverns of Transcendance and Rule of 3' exemplar build build))

Your sentiments are not far off from my own. I wanted to design a tank that maximized its damage while easily being tough enough, so I went with a Stone/SS tanker. Granite Armor comes with plenty of drawbacks, but i wanted to see what its like to play within those drawbacks and maximize my potential anyways.

 

So I decided on making 3 builds.

• Offensive Build which is proc'd out and can casually farm, solo pylons, or simply tank while providing DPS. I still hardcap all resists except psi, softcap all defenses except psi, and have capped HP if needed.
• Defensive Build which is intended purely for tanking anything. I invested in more regeneration and psi resistance, hitting close to 80% psi resists, letting my tanker ATO take me the rest of the way when I get 2 stacks and hit 90% psi.
• Exemplar/Non-Granite Build which is intended to be able to play content below level 27 while also primarily tanking from outside of granite form, only switching to granite when necessary.

Honestly, I made the character as a proof of concept only, but while playing/farming it I realized he was more fun than I intended, so I invested in multiple builds. I recommend you do the same if you love the character.

[Hjarki]

2 hours ago, clucks2 said:

If you have 20% defense on a fire farm you will die, unless you rely on greens/purples, which would be less efficient than only needing reds... But to your point, I'm all for only getting what you need. I definitely feel like most people tunnel on obtaining certain stats and end up going overboard.

I can afk on a x8/+3 Fire Farm with 90% FR, 20% defense and healing/regen strictly from uniques just fine. No need for greens/purples. In any case, it's a matter of testing to see what is necessary rather than assuming you need maximum mitigation.

[Bill Z Bubba]

19 hours ago, Infinitum said:

Nonsense, Curbs > Granite

 

1. Shield Invul or Rad

2. Elec Armor or SR

3. Everything else

Based on the testing I've done with my sr/claws, tank, I have to move SR on up there to Tier 1.

[marcussmythe]

41 minutes ago, Bopper said:

Your sentiments are not far off from my own. I wanted to design a tank that maximized its damage while easily being tough enough, so I went with a Stone/SS tanker. Granite Armor comes with plenty of drawbacks, but i wanted to see what its like to play within those drawbacks and maximize my potential anyways.

 

So I decided on making 3 builds.

• Offensive Build which is proc'd out and can casually farm, solo pylons, or simply tank while providing DPS. I still hardcap all resists except psi, softcap all defenses except psi, and have capped HP if needed.
• Defensive Build which is intended purely for tanking anything. I invested in more regeneration and psi resistance, hitting close to 80% psi resists, letting my tanker ATO take me the rest of the way when I get 2 stacks and hit 90% psi.
• Exemplar/Non-Granite Build which is intended to be able to play content below level 27 while also primarily tanking from outside of granite form, only switching to granite when necessary.

Honestly, I made the character as a proof of concept only, but while playing/farming it I realized he was more fun than I intended, so I invested in multiple builds. I recommend you do the same if you love the character.

Shes a reroll of an Issue 0 main.  I love her forever.

Right now I'm just not sure I -need- a max tank build.  But while I'm enjoying running All The Content In City Of Heroes, Im happily scrabbling away a pile of cash.  Im also staring down a respec - I may be ditching the experimentation pool (which for me is Adrenalin Boost, Superspeed as a mule, and an utterly wasted power) for Assault, Victory Rush, and Taunt - so as to have Taunt native even in my 'all offense' build (which, as discussed, has proven 'tough enough' so far)

 

Or something similar.  I enjoy the +Rchg out of Adrenalin Boost, but I dont enjoy having yet-another-maintenance-click on top of Hasten and Ageless, and I wonder if I can get more utility out of those 3 picks as opposed to just a bit more damage.

Edited June 16, 2020 by marcussmythe

[Frozen Rune]

I think Bio/SS is the most broken tank in the game and I don't think second place is even remotely close. 

[Gobbledigook]

2 hours ago, Frozen Rune said:

I think Bio/SS is the most broken tank in the game and I don't think second place is even remotely close. 

Not sure about that but Bio/SS is certainly potent.

[Sir Myshkin]

12 hours ago, Bopper said:

Exemplar/Non-Granite Build which is intended to be able to play content below level 27 while also primarily tanking from outside of granite form, only switching to granite when necessary.

Had me thinking there for a second, and I was like "huh... I wonder" and I know your build you posted was a bit different from the one I have on file, but I opened it up and was like "what's this thing at if I turn off Granite?" Funny enough, with nothing more than a 7.5% LotG muled in, with Weave and Maneuvers it still clocks in at 37% S/L/E/N and I was like "hey, that's actually pretty darn good for sub-27 content."

 

Which had me back to going "Eh, maybe I should make one of these..."

[Bopper]

7 minutes ago, Sir Myshkin said:

Had me thinking there for a second, and I was like "huh... I wonder" and I know your build you posted was a bit different from the one I have on file, but I opened it up and was like "what's this thing at if I turn off Granite?" Funny enough, with nothing more than a 7.5% LotG muled in, with Weave and Maneuvers it still clocks in at 37% S/L/E/N and I was like "hey, that's actually pretty darn good for sub-27 content."

 

Which had me back to going "Eh, maybe I should make one of these..."

The build I have now has thrown so many of the powers I would need for exemplaring at the tail end of the build, so it would not do too well. But if I did want to run around outside of granite, I certainly could. 38% S/L def, 20% F/C def, 35% E/N def, 46% psi def, 24% S/L res, 53% F/C res, 14% E/N res, 32% Toxic res, and 12% psi res. It'll take about 5 seconds to toggle everything on, but not too bad. Just pay no attention to the gawdaful endurance consumption haha...but I already have Ageless so it's nothing.

 

But yes, Stone can certainly do well exemplared with the non-granite armor if it's built for it. If you ever make a tri-build granite tank, I'd love to see it. 

 

[marcussmythe]

I promised a build, so I attached one below.  Power order is different in play - Taunt comes much earlier, etc - to allow better exemp. down.

 

General Thoughts:

 

Resists are a bit lower than I would like, but we quickly get to 90% S/L, 60% or more Energy and 40% or more Toxic/Psi with a proc or hit point loss.  Defense is about 1% under softcap when saturated - again, Id like it a bit higher, but those are the 'offensive mode' numbers - both go up rapidly with a switch to melee and barrier (anticipated for any heavy tanking)

 

Afterburner and Vengeance are odd/low value choices, but I wanted the LOTG Mules and to have room room for a full reactive defenses set in Invicibility.  I may drop Vengance for Tactics just to get the CC resists, even so.   You leave a ~lot~ of recharge and resists on the table by eschewing purps/winters for procmongering, and we are a few seconds short of perma-hasten.  A previous version leaned on Adrenal Booster for damage and recharge, but having two maintenance clicks (Hasten and Ageless) on the same timer is bad enough.. having a third on a difference cycle cost too much QOL to me to be worth the payback (I have other characters that are high maintenance supercars - this is not that character)

 

If anyone can see any 'free money' thats been left on the table, please holler.  Id be happy to have more damage, or more toughness, but the balance of the two feels about right, and Id hate to lose the one for the other.  Specifically Id like to thank Kaeledin, Myshkin, Redlynne, Bopper, and others I am forgetting for anything good, and take full credit for anything bad, in whats below.

 

 

 

Spoiler

Hero Plan by Mids' Reborn : Hero Designer 2.6.1.25
https://github.com/Crytilis/mids-reborn-hero-designer

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Hero AOE: Level 50 Science Tanker
Primary Power Set: Invulnerability
Secondary Power Set: Energy Melee
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Flight
Power Pool: Leadership
Ancillary Pool: Mu Mastery

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Temp Invulnerability -- ImpArm-ResPsi(A), UnbGrd-ResDam(3), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx(3), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(5)
Level 1: Barrage -- SprGntFis-Acc/Dmg(A), SprGntFis-Dmg/Rchg(5), SprGntFis-Rchg/+Absorb(7), GldStr-%Dam(7), Mk'Bit-Dam%(9), TchofDth-Dam%(9)
Level 2: Energy Punch -- SprMghoft-Acc/Dmg(A), SprMghoft-Dmg/Rchg(11), SprMghoft-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(11), SprMghoft-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(13), SprMghoft-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(13), SprMghoft-Rchg/Res%(15)
Level 4: Bone Smasher -- SprGntFis-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(A), SprGntFis-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(23), SprGntFis-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(23), TchofDth-Dam%(25), Mk'Bit-Dam%(25), GldStr-%Dam(27)
Level 6: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(27)
Level 8: Dull Pain -- Prv-Heal(A), Prv-Heal/EndRdx(29), Prv-EndRdx/Rchg(29), Prv-Heal/Rchg(31), Prv-Heal/Rchg/EndRdx(31), Prv-Absorb%(31)
Level 10: Resist Elements -- ImpArm-ResPsi(A)
Level 12: Unyielding -- TtnCtn-ResDam/EndRdx(A), TtnCtn-ResDam(33), ImpArm-ResPsi(33)
Level 14: Resist Energies -- UnbGrd-ResDam(A), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx(33), ImpArm-ResPsi(34), UnbGrd-Rchg/ResDam(34)
Level 16: Whirling Hands -- ScrDrv-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(A), Mlt-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(34), ScrDrv-Dam%(36), Erd-%Dam(36), Obl-%Dam(36), Arm-Dam%(37)
Level 18: Invincibility -- Rct-Def(A), Rct-Def/EndRdx(37), Rct-EndRdx/Rchg(37), Rct-Def/Rchg(39), Rct-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(39), Rct-ResDam%(39)
Level 20: Fly -- WntGif-ResSlow(A)
Level 22: Hover -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A)
Level 24: Afterburner -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A)
Level 26: Tough Hide -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def(40)
Level 28: Resist Physical Damage -- StdPrt-ResDam/Def+(A), GldArm-3defTpProc(40), ImpArm-ResPsi(42), GldArm-ResDam(50)
Level 30: Maneuvers -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(40)
Level 32: Assault -- Empty(A)
Level 35: Electrifying Fences -- Bmbdmt-+FireDmg(A), PstBls-Dam%(42), TraoftheH-Dam%(42), PrfShf-End%(43), PwrTrns-+Heal(43), PstBls-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(43)
Level 38: Energy Transfer -- Hct-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(A), Hct-Dmg/EndRdx(45), GldStr-%Dam(45), Mk'Bit-Dam%(45), TchofDth-Dam%(46), Hct-Dam%(46)
Level 41: Ball Lightning -- Bmbdmt-+FireDmg(A), PstBls-Dam%(46), Bmbdmt-Acc/Dam/Rech/End(48), JvlVll-Dam%(48), Bmbdmt-Acc/Dam/Rech(48), Bmbdmt-Dam(50)
Level 44: Build Up -- GssSynFr--Build%(A), RechRdx-I(50)
Level 47: Vengeance -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A)
Level 49: Taunt -- Taunt-I(A)
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Gauntlet 
Level 1: Prestige Power Dash -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Slide -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Quick -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Rush -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Surge -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run 
Level 2: Swift -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Health -- Pnc-Heal/+End(A), Pnc-Heal/EndRedux(15), Pnc-Heal/Rchg(17), Pnc-Heal/EndRedux/Rchg(17), Pnc-Heal(19)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- PwrTrns-+Heal(A), PrfShf-End%(19), PwrTrns-EndMod(21), PrfShf-EndMod(21)
Level 0: The Atlas Medallion 
Level 0: Portal Jockey 
Level 0: Task Force Commander 
Level 0: Freedom Phalanx Reserve 
Level 50: Barrier Core Epiphany 
Level 50: Musculature Core Paragon 
------------

 

[clucks2]

On 6/16/2020 at 6:39 AM, Hjarki said:

I can afk on a x8/+3 Fire Farm with 90% FR, 20% defense and healing/regen strictly from uniques just fine. No need for greens/purples. In any case, it's a matter of testing to see what is necessary rather than assuming you need maximum mitigation.

Is that with healing flames on auto or burn? I suppose if you built for regen its doable on +4 as well, but ideally you would have burn on not healing flames. 

[Hjarki]

15 minutes ago, clucks2 said:

Is that with healing flames on auto or burn? I suppose if you built for regen its doable on +4 as well, but ideally you would have burn on not healing flames. 

On my Tanker, I have Dragon's Tail on autofire.

[clucks2]

1 minute ago, Hjarki said:

On my Tanker, I have Dragon's Tail on autofire.

That sounds awesome..... fire/MA.... (totally not opening mids right now)

 

Edited June 18, 2020 by clucks2