Weekly Discussion 55: Power Pools!

[Zepp]

12 minutes ago, Cutter said:

Here's an early morning thought (and if someone else has mentioned this before somewhere, consider yourself credited!)... what if choice of origin during character creation came with that origin pool as a set of inherent powers which don't count against other power pool picks? They would NOT all be available at level 2, but rather open up on their current tier unlock schedule. They would be easily ignorable by those who wish to ignore them, but otherwise having a "free" travel power, attack or two, buff etc. seems like it would be a good thing?

The problem is that the choice of origin for RP purposes may clash with the Origin Pool powers that best fit that characters RP needs.

[MTeague]

Teleportation

• change activation time of "Teleport" to match that of Jaunt. 
• some means to break or suppress the "hover" effect after teleporting if I do not want it.  I do not care if this is handled as a Stance, or via Null The Gull, or by selecting "Teleport" as a power choice giving me access to TWO teleport powers.... one with the hover, and one without.
• Take a good hard look at "Long Range Teleport".  If, as I suspect, it is taken EVEN LESS OFTEN than "Confront", seriously consider removing it from the game. I cannot imagine anyone is seriously going to spend THREE power choices to take this when Base Portals, Ouro Portals, Aucton House Portals and the like are available without making a power selection AT ALL.
• Give Teleport an "Attack" power.  I love the Bamph-Attack of [Burst of Speed] and think it's a great fit for the Teleportation pool.

Fighting

• Kick:  no functional changes to the power.   Add Thunder Kick animation as a optional alternate animation.
• Boxing:  no functional changes to the power.  Add some kind of punch animation where your arm actually extends toward the target as an alternate animation.  the "gut punch" default animation of boxing really doesn't do it for me, and looks like you'd have to be physically on top of the mob for it to have a chance to connect wtih them.

Presence: 

• needs some love.  Functionally, the Fears and Placates have such a short duration compared to their recharge that it doesn't feel that the set deserves it's writeup description. 

"You have an impressive presence that manifests in a variety of ways. Whether through charm, persuasion or outright intimidation, you can manipulate your foes' desire to fight you. Though this is a challenging set to master, and can get you into trouble if used injudiciously, the potential benefits are great."    

 

I feel that that part is, frankly, false advertising for everything but Unrelenting.

[Blackfeather]

16 hours ago, Bopper said:

Request #1) Increase minimum number of Pool Powers to 5, or have the Origin Pools not count as a Power Pool in the limit of 4 pool powers.

 

Request #2) Remove the Requirement of the T4 powers in a pool needing 2 sub powers before selection. Only have the T5 power require 2 previous powers. As a compromise, move the minimum level for slotting a T4 pool power to level 20.

Quoting to demonstrate my support for having the Origin power pools not counting towards the limit of 4...even if it's mostly to be able to pick a snazzier travel power outside of the regular pools, hahah.

[Cutter]

1 hour ago, Zepp said:

The problem is that the choice of origin for RP purposes may clash with the Origin Pool powers that best fit that characters RP needs.

Fair point.

 

What about a "select an origin power pool" option added during character creation, with a simple statement of "this pool does not have to match your chosen origin"? The creation process would then have those powers show up in customization (so players can see what they look like, view the numbers, etc.), and just like everything else, would be changeable right up to the point of clicking "enter the game". Yes this would bake that pool into the character along with primary/secondary, but in theory at least being able to see what all the powers look like, and customize them accordingly, would do something to mitigate that concern.

[energizing_ion]

Maybe have Recall Friend and Teleport Foe the same power; name it something different possibly but allow it to tp both friends and enemies alike.  That will free up a 'slot' for an attack type of power in the Teleport pool.  Also, somehow make this recall friend/tp foe power able to teleport pets (escort/rescue missions) so that you don't need to use the walk temp power to make sure you don't lose the escort (roll eyes), or worry about having the escort get stuck on a wall/ceiling.

 

The Presence, Medicine (along w/Teleport obviously) power pools need help too as others have already given suggestions.

[Darkneblade]

All Self-teleport powers should have inherent Defense values.... for 5 seconds....

Since animations usually too long it doesn't provide anything in combat. When teleporting before animation you have X amount of defense  for 2 seconds (or however cast times is) (unenchantable) and after the teleportation you have X amount of defense for 3 seconds. This in turn make teleport powers pickable other then stone armor users...(pun intended)

Or Add Combat teleport power or something if Recall Friend and Teleport Foe becomes same power. (Teleport Other)

Edited June 15, 2020 by Darkneblade

[Heraclea]

19 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

The main thing to me is that there is a clear line in the sand between AMAZING pool powers and everything else.

 

Stuff like Stealth / etc get picked so infrequently that they should deserve a look

If one of my characters does NOT get wall-to-wall mez protection from their primary or secondary, they almost certainly will have Concealment pool, Stealth and probably Invisibility.  The only characters that don't take them are the ones that already have something better in the primary or secondary, like a stalker, an archery/devices blaster or an illusion/rad controller. 

 

These characters need to be able to set the terms of engagement for each fight.  Toe bombing is always fun,  These tend to be my story arc completionists, the ones that unlock stuff like Katie Hannon and Ernesto Hess.  They try to minimize combat and head for the mission objectives and arc rewards. 

 

So yes, I get a lot of mileage out of Concealment.  I even take it on characters that do have mez protection, like a regen scrapper.  And if a character takes it they will probably also try to work in Recall Friend as well.  My problem with Concealment pool is that HC changes mean there's not much effective difference between Stealth ande Invisibility.  Stealth + Stealth IO (catalyzed) is good enough for PvE, while Invisibility + Stealth IO is not good enough to enable you to run Nemesis or Rikti missions, or evade ambushes.  What having both does, mostly, is to enable you to slot two different defense-set global uniques. 

 

Pool powers tend to be very uneven in quality.  You have travel powers that you'll need another travel power to make work (Super Speed and Teleport).  You have valuable powers (Tough, Weave) gated by attacks I usually don't bother putting on an action bar.  Useless heals, interruptible in combat; I experimented with Medicine on Heraclea last year; didn't work worth a dried fig.  I don't have the reaction time to be a spot healer.   I don't find Hasten as essential as some do, and it seems quite optional on most melees, especially if they are running defense based armors with click mez protection, but if you are relying on powers with too-slow recharge (i.e. any control set) it does become much more pertinent. 

[Nyghtmaire]

20 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

The main thing to me is that there is a clear line in the sand between AMAZING pool powers and everything else.

 

Stuff like Stealth / etc get picked so infrequently that they should deserve a look

Re Stealth, is the consensus that this pool taken for LotG recharge mules? I think I’ve taken phase shift once leveling up. Never tried misdirection (or met anyone that did).

 

A caltrops type power (slow sets only with a fear component, no damage, “slowtrops” ?) would be a useful, creative addition to the pool. Replacing stealth with invisibility, and replacing “old” invisibility with Slowtrops would be a possibility, and could give some more functional use and temptation to the pool. 
 

Edit/addition: going back through the thread, I’m seeing more interest and uses in accessing this pool. Some changes to reduce the power choice tax would increase opportunity without offering unbalance.

Edited June 15, 2020 by Nyghtmaire

[Nyghtmaire]

6 hours ago, Peacemoon said:

Speaking of Tough/Weave I would actually put them in the Fitness pool and make them baseline. Radical I know. Tough at 20, Weave at 25, or something. Make the fighting power pool much more focused on melee attacks. There would be more room without Tough and Weave. 

Radical reimagining! 

[Nemu]

Take a page out of path of exile and introduce power pools that weigh risk vs reward and can change the way you play. For example a power pool toggle that makes all your attacks do minor aoe splash damage but your attacks do less damage, or a power that converts all your control powers to doing extra damage instead of normal control effects or a toggle that will drain 33% end per second but doubles your damage as long as it's up. There is no reason why we can't introduce modal toggles similar to swap ammo or bio armors adaptations with power pools either, these things can help promote build diversity and experimentation.

 

If we are just limiting ourselves to existing pools I echo what's been said about the lesser used pools.

 

Also, buff whirlwind and reduce the end consumption on the power please.

[ImpousVileTerror]

Regretfully, there is a pretty big barrier there, actually, Nemu.  The way the spaghetti works for Powers in the City code is that most of everything is either "baked in" or uses a pseudo-pet.

The former would mean going through and manually changing

every

single

power

to have

every

single

variation

baked

in

by

default

and

coded

to

proc

only

when

conditions

are

met.

 

 . . . as annoying as that was to write, and likely annoying to read, imagine that multiplied by about five hundred thousand times (or more), and ask volunteers to do that.

 

The other solution, the use of pseudo-pets, is one which has been described as kludgey and prone to breakage.  It would also require a pretty monumental effort to code.  Just not quite as severely.

 

 

So, the spirit of your idea is interesting!  I'd like that level of customization too.

But from what I presently understand about the game code, it's definitely outside the realm of feasible (but I would be happy to be proven wrong!).

[Peacemoon]

1 hour ago, Nyghtmaire said:

Re Stealth, is the consensus that this pool taken for LotG recharge mules? I think I’ve taken phase shift once leveling up. Never tried misdirection (or met anyone that did).

 

A caltrops type power (slow sets only with a fear component, no damage, “slowtrops” ?) would be a useful, creative addition to the pool. Replacing stealth with invisibility, and replacing “old” invisibility with Slowtrops would be a possibility, and could give some more functional use and temptation to the pool. 
 

Edit/addition: going back through the thread, I’m seeing more interest and uses in accessing this pool. Some changes to reduce the power choice tax would increase opportunity without offering unbalance.

I think concealment would be great if characters could get a sneak attack bonus for attacking out of concealment’s stealth. Not free with stealth, but an extra bonus on taking more concealment powers, like how fighting works with Boxing, Kick and Cross Punch.
 

So trying to stick to the cottage rule would mean giving Misdirection and Phase Shift and the rest,  additional passive bonuses that would effect stealth, rather than reworking the powers themselves. Such as a scaling buff, like +10% damage +3% defence for x seconds after exiting stealth, for each additional concealment power trained.

 

It would mean that concealment could give all characters the ability to be mini stealthers and have a pseudo-stealth playstyle, which I then is what was intended with the set and above all, would be FUN (and a worthy rival to Leadership, Fighting, etc.).

 

With my above example I would probably rework the Concealment pool so that you HAVE to take stealth to unlock the other 4 powers, and then all the other powers could be taken with stealth as it’s only requirement.

[Lost Deep]

Okay, I haven't read the rest of this thread, but here's my thoughts fast.

 

Concealment: Has too large of downsides for the upsides it gives you. Stealth is basically useless once you enter combat and Invisibility is liability. But then... grant invisibility actually does what maybe it should? Stealth and a defense bonus. Why can't a concealment character give that kind of no-strings-attached bonus to themselves? I can see misdirection being useful, in my opinion it's better here in a power pool where it's generally available than attached to stalkers. However, it's not worth picking up two other powers out of the pool for. Phase shift similarly: I can see someone making good use of it, but I'm skeptical of it being worth taking two other abilities.

 

Fighting: Is actually impressively effective. Personally, this is my golden ruler for all the other power pools; once you get all three attacks they're surprisingly effective and tough and eave adds a little extra durability to any archetype that lacks it. It's not a must-take on every character, but it is notable enough that it's well-appreciated.

 

Flight: Hover is good, despite what the numbers may say: The mere ability to avoid melee attacks in most tilesets is worth taking if you're a squishy blaster or the like. Air superiority is a great extra melee control attack, again not something you want on every build but can be useful if you want to solo and you're short on control effects. But then fly, group fly, and afterburner... the truth is that in order for fly to be effective you need to take both it and afterburner. This makes it (to my mind) the worst travel power in the game: no other travel power takes two power slots. Group fly is also janky as others have gone over, I think it'd likely be best if it was an AoE click buff instead of a bubble set up, maybe with fall damage immunity that lasts for a few seconds after the ability fades.

 

Leadership: This is another set that could be used as a standard, with the exception of Victory Rush. Those people who can figure out how it works tell the rest of us that it isn't worth it, and the mere fact that how its used isn't clear from the description is telling for me. Maybe it could be clarified, maybe it needs to be tweaked, at least it needs to be looked at.

 

Leaping: Jump kick isn't relevant. The damage isn't garbage (on paper, anyway), but it also isn't notable and the bonus effect only triggers 20% of the time. There's so many pool melee attacks to choose from that there's ultimately no reason to care. Combat jumping and acrobatics are both well-regarded among archetypes that need a little extra defense, and Super Jump itself is my favorite travel power. Spring attack seems really cool save that it has a two minute cooldown. Is that really necessary? Ultimately, to me the strangest thing is how much Leaping overlaps with Fighting.

 

Medicine isn't as good as the fighting set, and I agree it would benefit from tweaks, but it's still a sight better than concealment or presence. Aid other is well-liked by masterminds without healing secondaries and Aid Self works as advertised. The casting times are all very long (remnant from this being one of the first power pools iirc), but that's really the main weakness it has.

 

Presence: Presence I have complicated views on. The taunt effect is well-liked by tankerminds, and as said above I can see someone getting good use out of a passify effect EXCEPT that this version of it is single-target and if you're having trouble against a single target it's likely a Boss that will ignore your passify effect. Otherwise, you'll have to ask someone who's actually played the set: I admit I haven't yet. I can see Invoke Panic and Intimidate being situationally useful, but not to the point that I've grabbed the set yet. Unrelenting makes me want to grab the pool, but I don't want to invest in two other powers in it. However, the biggest bee in my bonnet is that this is the perfect place for Confront.

 

TANGENT: I like confront. As a solo player, Confront is super useful for pulling mobs and controlling engagements. Only issue is that it's stuck on Scrappers, which don't need the help. It COULD go in the presence pool and be available for anyone, and it still wouldn't be as good as taunt as available to tankers or brutes. I'd love confront on a blaster, Sentinel, or corrupter! On a Scrapper it's... just there.

 

Speed: Flurry is HOT GARBAGE. Super speed is fun? You need to get a jump pack from P2W to get it to work but from my point of view that means its more viable now than it ever has been. Whirlwind lacks impact, and burnout is so situational that the only way I can see burnout being used well is if someone made their entire build from the bottom up to benefit from burnout. Haste is... man, I don't need to tell you that haste is overpowered. At least, for a Tier-1 pool power it is.

 

My angle on haste is that instead of nerfing it move it to burnout's position, kick out burnout entirely, and make a new power. A closing attack maybe. Haste isn't too powerful for CoH in my eyes: It's instead too powerful to be available to literally anyone at level 4 with no investment.

 

Teleportation: Big oof. Teleport friend has its uses for sure, and I've heard some people enjoy teleport foe, but teleport itself is a mess and everyone has an idea on how to fix it. Mine is to increase the base range, shorten the animation time, and make it so that the auto-hover only kicks in if you're not touching the ground. I'm unsure of Team Teleport (especially compared to Assemble the Team) and Long Range Teleport isn't super useful now that we have enter base with passcode for fast travel.

 

Sorcery: I'm pretty happy with sorcery. Power pool basic ranged attacks have been needed for a LONG time, and most of its powers are situational but not cripplingly so. Yeah, mystic flight is better than both flight and teleportation, but otherwise this seems like a good pool to me.

 

Experimentation: Speed of sound is amazing. Otherwise, nothing has really left me disappointed. Maybe in part because I have it on a MM so I always have an ally around for injection, but so far I like it.

 

Force of Will: Weaken resolve in its current form isn't really worth it. Otherwise, looks good.

 

Gadgetry and Utility Belt: If these follow the setups of the current origin pools, I'll be happy.

 

In short:
Concealment and Presence could definitely use looks. I want to say 'they don't need complete reworks' but between the buffs and some re-arrangement it'll basically be re-works.

Fighting and Leadership are both really good (except for Victory Rush, how does it work?)

Travel power pools are all really dated, especially with the origin pools coming out. In that same vein, with the origin pools coming out the vanilla travel powers are all dated. From a raw mechanical standpoint, there's no reason to choose Super Jump over Mighty Leap or Super Speed over speed of sound. Arcane flight actually makes two different travel powers obsolete.

 

There is no power in the Speed pool without some kind of issue. The closest thing the speed pool has to a well-tuned power is only that way because you can get a bandage fix from the P2W store. Haste, even if you don't want to nerf it, has no business being available alongside boxing or hover.

 

Origin pools are all very nice, the ranged attacks are great for melee toons or Masterminds, some powers might need tweaks but nothing more than tweaks.

Edited June 15, 2020 by Lost Deep
typo

[Keen]

Teleportation:

• Recall Friend, Teleport Foe, Teleport Team, Long Range Teleport:
  • Cast times are too long. I'd reduce everything considerably.
• Teleport:
  • Current cast time is too long; should be at least as good as Jaunt, activation-time-wise.
    • Motivation: a power pool that specializes in teleport should be the king of teleport. How come Jaunt is better overall?
  • Could have different customization options, including current Teleport, Jaunt, and Burst of Speed animations/effects
    • Random Observation: Burst of Speed does sound like an attack that belongs to the Teleport pool.

Concealment:

• Invisiblity:
  • Revert changes done in HC.
    • Previously it had Only Affects Self flag and kept the defense bonus in combat, being much more useful for scouting.
    • The current changes make combat worse by providing no benefit (since they all suppress) and still draining endurance.

Flight:

• Fly:
  • My favorite travel power.
  • Could have customization options that change the default flying animation.
  • I'd improve max flight speed by a small amount, to make it more appealing compared to P2W jetpacks.
  • Suggestion: have it affect the owner Pets (MM, Controller/Dom, Epics, etc) while it's toggled on.
    • not the same as Group Fly, and not limited by area of effect
    • could be tied to the last pet upgrade for MMs, so non-upgraded pets don't fly
• Air Superiority:
  •  I love how it looks and its soft-control usefulness.

Speed:

• Flurry:
  • I dislike this animation.
  • I understand it has a long animation time to give the impression of speed with multiple fast attacks. But the current animation still feels slow and heavy. Should be something like... One Thousand Cuts, but with punches.

Fighting:

• Boxing:
  •  I like the gutpunch animation.
  • More animations would be welcome.
• Kick:
  •  The current animation is okay (not bad, not good).
  • Would love to see more animations.

Leaping:

• Jump Kick:
  • I strongly dislike this animation.
  • Could use more animations.
• Acrobatics:
  •  I like having the option to have hold protection.
  • But it takes a lot of investment.
• Spring Attack:
  • I like it overall, but could recharge faster.

Medicine:

• Aid Other, Aid Self:
  • I understand the reason they have long cast times and are interruptible -- it's not supposed to be a full fledged healing set.
  • But they can be "bad enough" just having a long cast time, so I suggest removing the interrupt times altogether.
• Field Medic:
  • Without interruption time in the base powers, the passive effect of this power could reduce the activation time of both Aid Other and Aid Self, while its clickable effect could increase the healing amount of those two powers.
  • Since it requires heavy investment, it makes sense to me that such investment could make the two heal powers closer (but not equal) to a full fledged healing set.

 

[MTeague]

Aid Self can work just fine on characters who have VERY high defense. (Super Reflexes, Ninjistu, Energy Aura, Ice Armor, etc).  Admittedly, you may still have serious issues on a blaster or defender, because of Defense Debuffs/lack of Defense Debuff Resistance, whereas on /SR, you're much more likely to retain the ability to use the heal in combat becuse most thigns are still missing you, even if you have 10 council gunners shooting you. 

 

Invisibility, I do not use.  I am a Map-Clearing-Fool. I have no interest is stealthing past entire sections of mobs.  I'm a "Kill Most"-er.

 

Stealth, I very much like, for the reasons @Heracleaitemized.  My squishies with no status protection need to be able to choose when to engage, and be able to peek around a corner without combat immediately happening.  The only 30+ squishes I have without Stealth, are generally something like Storm or Dark Miasma or Cold Domination, where I have Steamy Mist, or a similar PBAE stealth power in the that support tree.

 

Kick/Boxing/Crosspunch ARE amazing, if you take all three. But that's a biiiig power selection investment. 

 

I do not like the idea of making Tough or Weave inherent. I may be in the minority here and the devs will do what the devs will do, but I feel there is MORE than enough power creep already.

 

[Nemu]

57 minutes ago, ImpousVileTerror said:

Regretfully, there is a pretty big barrier there, actually, Nemu.  The way the spaghetti works for Powers in the City code is that most of everything is either "baked in" or uses a pseudo-pet.

The former would mean going through and manually changing

every

single

power

to have

every

single

variation

baked

in

by

default

and

coded

to

proc

only

when

conditions

are

met.

 

 . . . as annoying as that was to write, and likely annoying to read, imagine that multiplied by about five hundred thousand times (or more), and ask volunteers to do that.

 

The other solution, the use of pseudo-pets, is one which has been described as kludgey and prone to breakage.  It would also require a pretty monumental effort to code.  Just not quite as severely.

 

 

So, the spirit of your idea is interesting!  I'd like that level of customization too.

But from what I presently understand about the game code, it's definitely outside the realm of feasible (but I would be happy to be proven wrong!).

Well, it's up to the coders to work on implementation of ideas that are interesting, and if it can't be done it can't be done. I remember back during live there was a long standing feature gap that was fixed (think it had to do with trick arrow and oil slick arrow) because a new developer joined the team. Some times new tech comes along that makes the impossible possible.

 

But even if we follow the claim about the code there are still things that we can do within that framework that plays off that idea of risk vs reward. We can play around with global variables like overall defense buff or overall damage buff/debuff rather than tweaking individual powers. There are also the incarnate mechanics of global procs/double damage that we can leverage.

 

I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility that we can have a pool toggle that increases damage by 50% but decreases to hit or defense by 10%, or a toggle that introduces a global proc but at the cost of applying a global regen/recovery debuff. This idea of a single power having both a debuff and buff component is already in the game, look at the mystic buff the fool that has both a debuff (to hit) and a buff (move speed) component.

 

 

[Chuckers]

So, I decided to take Mu Mastery to switch things up... I've only got the first two powers, but in all honesty, I think making the enemies lick a 9 volt battery would cause more damage. 

 

[Lost Deep]

20 minutes ago, MTeague said:

Aid Self can work just fine on characters who have VERY high defense. (Super Reflexes, Ninjistu, Energy Aura, Ice Armor, etc).  Admittedly, you may still have serious issues on a blaster or defender, because of Defense Debuffs/lack of Defense Debuff Resistance, whereas on /SR, you're much more likely to retain the ability to use the heal in combat becuse most thigns are still missing you, even if you have 10 council gunners shooting you. 

Yeah, Aid Self is not in a good place. If nothing else, it should have the fact it can be interrupted in the description somewhere.

 

20 minutes ago, MTeague said:

Stealth, I very much like, for the reasons @Heracleaitemized.  My squishies with no status protection need to be able to choose when to engage, and be able to peek around a corner without combat immediately happening.  The only 30+ squishes I have without Stealth, are generally something like Storm or Dark Miasma or Cold Domination, where I have Steamy Mist, or a similar PBAE stealth power in the that support tree.

I've read most of the thread by now and... good point, I didn't think of that. Intriguing, but I still feel that the fact that the concealment pool gives OTHERS better advantages than it gives yourself is bad.

 

20 minutes ago, MTeague said:

Kick/Boxing/Crosspunch ARE amazing, if you take all three. But that's a biiiig power selection investment. 

True, but some power sets just have enough skippable powers that you can pull it off: my favorite mastermind uses them instead of the mastermind basic attacks. Even alone they're not as bad as some powers: I'd rather have Kick as a part of my rotation than brawl (Believe it or not, yes, that has come up for me). In addition, tough and weave are some of the powers that I'm willing to get a useless attack to get them on a squishy. I'm not super happy about it, no, but I'm willing.

 

20 minutes ago, MTeague said:

I do not like the idea of making Tough or Weave inherent. I may be in the minority here and the devs will do what the devs will do, but I feel there is MORE than enough power creep already.

Please do not make tough or weave inherent. This will homogenize builds in a great hurry, it isn't like if someone wanted to improve brawl or the like: Literally everyone having two defensive toggles with no investment would change the feel of the ENTIRE GAME. At MOST add a passive ability to fitness that increases defense a tiny amount (2.5% TOPS), but even that would be entirely needless power creep. If you want easy and cheap defense, you can get combat jumping at 4 and it costs next to no endurance.

Edited June 15, 2020 by Lost Deep
typo

[tidge]

22 hours ago, Bopper said:

Request #2) Remove the Requirement of the T4 powers in a pool needing 2 sub powers before selection. Only have the T5 power require 2 previous powers. As a compromise, move the minimum level for slotting a T4 pool power to level 20.

 

I'm with Bopper on request 2 (and 3): There are a few pools where the first 3 powers simply don't synergize (enough) to require FOUR picks to get both the final two powers. Keep reading...

 

1 hour ago, Lost Deep said:

Presence: Presence I have complicated views on. The taunt effect is well-liked by tankerminds, and as said above I can see someone getting good use out of a passify effect EXCEPT that this version of it is single-target and if you're having trouble against a single target it's likely a Boss that will ignore your passify effect. Otherwise, you'll have to ask someone who's actually played the set: I admit I haven't yet. I can see Invoke Panic and Intimidate being situationally useful, but not to the point that I've grabbed the set yet. Unrelenting makes me want to grab the pool, but I don't want to invest in two other powers in it. However, the biggest bee in my bonnet is that this is the perfect place for Confront.

I really like the Presence pool. Provoke is superior (if you accept the ToHit requirement) to Confront. With the ability to 'soft-cap' defenses, this is a great tool to help out teammates in trouble. Invoke Panic is one of the few PBAoE controls available to all ATs. Unrelenting is an awesome panic/self-heal button (I use it mostly as an offensive boost with high Recharge characters).

 

My only complaint with the Presence pool is that Pacify and Intimidate are strategically orthogonal to Provoke, and that Pacify and Intimidate are not really strategically different enough. Pacify has uses (albeit very limited ones)... that it can't duplicate Placate I understand, but shake my head as this would be an easy way to improve utility. The single-target fear of Intimidate can be useful while leveling up, but like many single-target T1 'controls' its utility is severely limited... and quite frankly it is outclassed by the PBAOE.

 

Spoiler

Some extra text to try to explain my issues with the first three choices of the Presence pool:

 

1) Provoke: I want aggro (from multiple targets).

2) Pacify: I don't want aggro (from a single target, which I hope doesn't notice me) while I deal with this other stuff.

3) Intimidate: I don't want aggro (from a single target) for a little bit of time.

 

Any of these could be the right choice for a given situation... but #2 is pretty much limited to solo play (I've only found it useful against AVs) and the utility of #3 falls away when the size of spawns increases (from teaming, or difficulty changes) unless you are actively trying to stack the magnitude of Fear on a mob.

 

I don't agree with @Zepp suggested changes to Presence, but I think the Teleport pool suggested changes should be considered. My opinion: Teleport is far-and-away the stinker of the Power pools.

[tidge]

1 hour ago, Lost Deep said:

Please do not make tough or weave inherent. This will homogenize builds in a great hurry, it isn't like if someone wanted to improve brawl or the like: Literally everyone having two defensive toggles with no investment would change the feel of the ENTIRE GAME. At MOST add a passive ability to fitness that increases defense a tiny amount (2.5% TOPS), but even that would be entirely needless power creep. If you want easy and cheap defense, you can get combat jumping at 4 and it costs next to no endurance.

My opinion: making Tough and/or Weave inherent would (for many players) would simply become places to drop Global IOs. I have several toons for which I (greedily) would accept three more power picks (dropping the entire Fighting Pool)... and on a significant number of those toons I'd FIRST be looking at how to min-max another stat (Defense? Global Recharge?) with a different power pool.

 

 

Certainly not every player is going to slot every Global IO, but asking for an inherent Defense boost power (even as a toggle) is basically just asking to lower the ToHit of enemy mobs. With the investment of a second slot in an (inherent) Tough, it is possible to get +6% Global Defense without even toggling a power on by using IOs.

 

No inherent Tough or Weave. The slope is simply too slippery.

[Ukase]

From a thematic perspective...power pools never made much sense to me. 

I never understood why, in the old days, we would have to pick one power before we got to choose the power we actually wanted. 

I always thought it would have been better to have chosen your method of travel during character creation, with the complementary powers being chosen as you level like normal. HC has fixed that in part, as we can now go right to the travel power if we choose. 

There are some passionate perspectives about Hasten and the glowing hands, the Super Speed and Combat Jumping combo, perhaps to a lesser degree the limit of only 4 pools. 


So...the Experimentation Pool...seriously? It is appropriately named, for sure. I haven't compared the speed from Speed of Sound with Super Speed, but I suspect they are identical. 

The rest of the set:
Experimental Injection -- a buff for an ally. 
Toxic Dart - minor damage, followed by High Toxic DoT. 
Corrosive Vial - High Toxic DoT AoE, defense debuff

Adrenal Booster - +ToHit, Damage, Recharge & "Special"  

I'm never quite clear what they mean by "special". Doesn't matter, it's a 5 minute base recharge, with a 1 minute duration for Adrenal Booster, yet you have to choose two other powers prior to getting it. 

So much is interesting about the set, but it just seems that if a little more time was invested, they could have made an entire power set with these choices. 



The Leaping pool has one power that needs some adjustment, in my mind. Acrobatics. The idea of Hold "resistance" as opposed to protection just rubs me the wrong way. 
I realize that there is a term "magnitude" which dictates how strong a hold or hold resistance is. What's not overly clear without some diligence is how much resistance is needed per different ATs. Further, with certain unique IOs, the power isn't really a great choice for most ATs. If it had hold protection, similar to Unyielding or Plasma Shield, then it would certainly be worth the choice for most ATs that don't get status protection. 


There are probably more I could discuss, but I've already written more than most folks want to read. 

[MTeague]

1 hour ago, Ukase said:

So...the Experimentation Pool...seriously? It is appropriately named, for sure. I haven't compared the speed from Speed of Sound with Super Speed, but I suspect they are identical. 

Speed of Sound does in fact have the exact same Run Speed boost as Super Speed.

• Speed of Sound comes with exactly ZERO stealth out-of-the-box (although you can still slot Celerity into it)
• However, Speed of Sound does come with Jaunt, which is a super fast activating fast animating teleport with a moderate range.  I believe it can be used up to 3 times in RAPID fire and hten you have ot wait for those "charges" to come back.  Jaunt also has no "hover" affect.

Jaunt makes Speed of Sound much more friendly in terms of vertical repositioning.  It won't handle everything.  You're not going to climb a massive sheer rock face with it, you're not going to cross the Shadow Shard with it.   But if you zip across the zone and need to bamph up to a higher level of road, it'll do the job.  Jaunt is also WONDERFUL as a "Combat Teleport" to reposition yourself in a batlefield.

 

There's a definite tradeoff with the lack of Stealth, and with it being a different pool from Hasten. 

But I have 5 characters with Speed of Sound already.  I really like it.

[GM Miss]

There are some great suggestions here already 😄

[XaoGarrent]

Yeesh... Okay, well... I'm of the thought that nothing can reasonably be done to improve power pools, because the problems with them are so large and so across the board that they need both a massive diversification, as well as a complete overhaul of the ones that already exist. Since day one of playing this game, I've always considered them to be a sore spot in the game's design.

 

The problem with Power Pools boils down to two primary factors:

      They are...

1. Thematically limited.
2. Mechanically and/or statistically weak, with some exceptions.

More often than not, power pool attacks/heals/"Things that directly make numbers happen" are too weak to be worth putting into your regular power rotation. Ally buffs and enemy debuffs fare a bit better, but usually not by much. Really the only place where power pools tend to shine tends to be self buffs, and even then, only when min/maxing- Aside from some outliers, such as Hasten, obviously, and some of the click buffs.

 

One could make an argument of "take it anyway, it fits the character concept."

 

...Not really. Aside from the obvious issue of gimping yourself by robbing yourself of better powers from your primary and secondary, this falls through because thematically most power pools are either lame, too neutral (which is good if you just want the buff), or too specific (if I want my life magic using Plant Dominator to have a bit of healing magic, well I'm SOL because that stupid tricorder). And don't even get me started on how lame punch and kick from the fighting pool look. We really should be able to use animations from different unarmed melee sets with them.

 

I will say the new origin themed power pools are a step in the right direction, in regards to theme, if only because... Again, diversification of the power pools is nice. Even if you have two versions of the same pool with slight statistical differences, but different FX on the powers, that's a partial win in my book.

 

But at the same time, the fact that so many attacks are so weak, really exacerbates the problem, because the attacks are arguably among the most thematic powers in any set, in the sense that they're some of the most metaphorically verbal powers. Visceral actions.

 

I've always felt that power pools should be balanced and themed a little closer to the epic pools, honestly. Except instead of being a toolbox or swiss army knife of random powers, they're more like a miniaturized version of one or two pre-existing powersets. It'll never happen, I know. ...And as a result I'll probably continue treating the power pools like they're just a grab bag of little things to min-max with. It is what it is.

Edited June 15, 2020 by XaoGarrent

[mechahamham]

Let's talk about the Flight Pool

 

Air Superiority - Great attack, especially if you don't already have a good ST attack power. I take this often on my control- or defense-type characters.

 

Hover - Meh on it's utility. For characters that are entirely ranged animals, i.e, some blasters, controllers, and dominators, the ability to fly above your enemies' melee attacks is super useful. On SOME maps and outside. Otherwise, it's a minor defensive toggle.

 

Fly - The slowest of the travel powers. It's pretty disappointing when you take it and it's only a little bit faster than hover or sprint. On its own, It's always maxed at the speed limit without adding any flight speed enhancers.

 

Group Fly - This still has the stigma of griefing characters that depend on being on the ground, such as stone controllers or electric armor melee. Players can change their preferences for group fly at Null, but this has to be explained to everyone in help chat. Accordingly, this power is so AMAZINGLY situational that almost no one takes it in a primary build. A few take it in a secondary build for Hamidon raids.

 

Afterburner - Exists almost solely to remove the abysmal speed limit on Fly. It's got some defense built into it... 11.25%, which is about on the same level as a melee defensive toggle. It's not really worth enhancing because Afterburner also comes with the 'Affect only self' attribute. The idea seems to be that you should fly past attacking enemies really fast... only most of the time you'd never use it for that. You're flying between missions or exploring with it. People who want to go past enemies, say to explore a dangerous trial zone like the Hive, or skip to the end of missions will almost always be using the stealth pool instead.

 

The last two powers in the pool need to be something that's worth the investment and in their current states, Group Fly and Afterburner simply are not.

 

First, we logically accept that Fly needs to be faster. Remove the current speed cap so that one can slot flight speed enhancers and actually have them do something. Another poster above mentioned having fly propagate to pets. I think that's a good idea. I personally think that it should be scaled so that 3 flight enhancements gets you to about 80mph flight speed, but I can see spreading the flight speed bonuses out onto other powers to give them 'synergy' like the fighting pool.

 

Fixing Group Fly is problematic. I really think it needs to be removed entirely or given entirely new mechanics. If we want to keep it in the same theme, rather than having it fly group members directly, it should instead grant a short-duration temp power toggle to team- or league-mates that works similar to Buoyant Membrane, the temp power you get from fighting Seed of Hamidon seedlings. Directly copy/pasting the mechanic wouldn't be a bad idea, but I think the values should be adjusted so that it's, say, a 9m recharge with the temp lasting a maximum of 10m.

 

I think a better solution is to rename the power and make it a self-only defensive toggle. Call it 'Defensive Flight' and give it an endurance cost and defensive values comparable to Weave. Since you need two selections to get it, it's an appropriate reward for the investment. If you want to make it even more attractive, put a little bit of flight-speed bonus on it as mentioned with Fly.

 

Afterburner, since we gave all its speed to regular ol' Fly, needs to be similarly changed. It needs to put the player at or near the general speed cap without enhancements. Rather than simply a defensive buff, it should also grant significant decrease in perception-- on the order of stealth, say, and a reasonable untouchable status. Make it so that it's a power that a player will actually want to have while exploring or stealthing to the end of a mission.

 

Edited June 15, 2020 by mechahamham