Fire Tank Desired Upgrades

[MsSmart]

Hi:

 

   I understand that because Fire armor is somewhat damage capable, that it has been made to be weaker than other tank armor protections; to which I recognize the purpose of such a compromise.

 

  Perhaps, I am suggesting is a different way to look at the compromise, to which there is within the set a precedent:

 

      Burn provides protection versus immobilize

      Healing provides resistance versus toxic

 

Notice in both samples, the fiery tanker at first lacks protection against immobilize and toxic, while other power sets has these protections as part of their toggles; yet if they activate the powers listed above, they can have the protections they need if they are going to fulfill their role as a tank.

 

     Based on the information above, here are some of the upgrades proposed:

 

     Burn also provides 20% resistance to slow debuff, and resistance to knockback (the duration of effects need to be long enough to allow burn to reset)

     Consume provides resistance to endurance debuff and endurance drain (the duration of effects needs to be long enough to allow consume to reset)

     Healing Flames provides 20% resistance to healing regeneration debuff (the duration of effect needs to be long enough to allow Healing flames to reset)

 

    Not a must, but only would be nice: Temperature Protection tends to be not so important power, it gives low resistance values plus redundant to Fire Shield, would recommend to add to this power resistances of the same magnitude of fire/cold for Energy and Negative.

 

   Not a must, but would be nice: Plasma Shield should also protect against Disorient

 

These are only suggestions that would empower a fire tank to be a better tank, would also suggest that Burn and Consume to have taunt properties as well, after all we do want the fire tanker to hold aggro for the team's sakes

 

Any constructive suggestions?

 

Sue

 

[MsSmart]

I also forgot to mention in here that other tank sets that suffers the same issues with lack of knock back and debuff resistances could be addressed in a similar manner as I did for the fire armor tanker.

 

Sue

[r0y]

I think the Fire Armor set is very much anchored in the pre-purple patch days, where toggles were all mutually exclusive (you could only run 1 at a time) and much of the game design seemed to be based around the "prepare for the fight" approach.  Thus, fire armor is very PROACTIVE in it's design.  Your suggestions take it a step further.

 

I like the concept of it being a different armor by being proactive, but the rewards need to be a bit more generous.  I mean, looking at Bio and Rad or especially Dark - which all have some amount of proactive approach, we see they are very powerful, capable armor sets.  Contrast that with Willpower and SR, the two most non-active sets.  Fire should not be so weak, even understanding Burn and Fiery Embrace, but the whole mechanic of proactive armor should give it better stats or debuff protections, as you've indicated.

 

The amount of "flow" that is interrupted by having to cast a heal (healing flames) when not really needed to heal, but to prepare for incoming toxic damage; same with burn, and if consume grants protections as you want, even more protection, since that requires a mob to use.  Unless they untie the +end / mob-hit from the end-drain/recovery protection.

 

So with three (3) proactive protections, the protections provided should not be similar or weaker than another armor's toggle/auto powers.  IMO, ofc.

 

[r0y]

On 7/5/2020 at 3:43 AM, MsSmart said:

I also forgot to mention in here that other tank sets that suffers the same issues with lack of knock back and debuff resistances could be addressed in a similar manner as I did for the fire armor tanker.

 

Sue

They can add it to Soul Transfer, so all you'd have to do is lose/die, then BAM!  You're protected from KB!  (assuming there's a mob nearby to use it on).  😜

[nihilii]

On 7/4/2020 at 5:35 PM, MsSmart said:

Consume provides resistance to endurance debuff and endurance drain (the duration of effects needs to be long enough to allow consume to reset)

It's not talked about much, but Consume actually does provide 50% end drain resistance for 2 minutes. With a 3 minutes base recharge, this means having just Hasten (or just 2 recharge SOs) make that resistance perma.

[Duck-Smokes-Quack]

1 hour ago, nihilii said:

It's not talked about much, but Consume actually does provide 50% end drain resistance for 2 minutes. With a 3 minutes base recharge, this means having just Hasten (or just 2 recharge SOs) make that resistance perma.

That is a hidden pearl of wisdom! I had no idea, very very good to know

[MsSmart]

14 hours ago, nihilii said:

It's not talked about much, but Consume actually does provide 50% end drain resistance for 2 minutes. With a 3 minutes base recharge, this means having just Hasten (or just 2 recharge SOs) make that resistance perma.

Muah!

 

Sue

[MsSmart]

How do you tell if the drain resistance is actually active? How do you monitor it?

 

Sue

[MsSmart]

For my life, everywhere I go to read about consume, nothing talks about the drain resistance as an ability, even when I delve into the power in game, it mentions nothing. Was the drain resistance removed?

 

Sue

[Tath99]

[Temperature Protection] already provides 20% resistance to slow debuff.  I understand your argument for adding more (it feels neither here nor there effective at 20%) but adding it to [Burn] -- would this not overload [Burn] with effects?  Would you not, at the very least, have to slow down the recharge or increase its END cost to compensate?

 

 

[Tsuko]

3 hours ago, Tath99 said:

 [Burn] with effects?  Would you not, at the very least, have to slow down the recharge or increase its END cost to compensate?

Changes on burn = 

 

 

[Tath99]

12 minutes ago, Tsuko said:

Changes on burn = 

 

 

Indeed.

 

However well intentioned a buff to burn and Fire Tanks -- there are consequences.

 

 

[Tsuko]

1 minute ago, Tath99 said:

Indeed.

 

However well intentioned a buff to burn and Fire Tanks -- there are consequences.

 

 

only for tankers ? 

 

 

[Meknomancer]

Fear protection, what am i missing. I jump into the rider mobs on lgtf and spend the whole fight quaking from terrorise for such a long duration that they have time to drain all my end dropping the toggles. I'm a tank am i supposed to run about with clarion and break free's? I felt so unheroic.

[Sovera]

18 hours ago, Meknomancer said:

Fear protection, what am i missing. I jump into the rider mobs on lgtf and spend the whole fight quaking from terrorise for such a long duration that they have time to drain all my end dropping the toggles. I'm a tank am i supposed to run about with clarion and break free's? I felt so unheroic.

I read you, but, even Super-man has a weakness. You are a tank who has one as well. Nothing wrong with it. Carry a few breakfrees for those elite bosses or kill the mobs that do fear first if they are squishier. As for being end sapped use Consume before engaging them and it won't happen.

 

Fear protection is not as widespread as you might assume it to be.

[Tsuko]

3 hours ago, Sovera said:

I read you, but, even Super-man has a weakness. You are a tank who has one as well. Nothing wrong with it. Carry a few breakfrees for those elite bosses or kill the mobs that do fear first if they are squishier. As for being end sapped use Consume before engaging them and it won't happen.

 

Fear protection is not as widespread as you might assume it to be.

Meanwhile ... 

 

 

Thematic weaknesses are fun but i cant agree they can become almost unplayable holes.

 

Fiery Armor need a serious rework.

 

Not enough accurate, need to think at this.

Edited November 18, 2020 by Tsuko

[Gobbledigook]

I would give FA fear protection. There is not a lot fire fears except a large amount of water lol.

 

 

[Hero Star]

Cant tactics be used to for fear protection?

 

The biggest deal breaker for me on Fire Armor is the lack of End Recovery Debuff Resistance. I think Consume has End Drain Resistance, but one without the other seems kind of useless. I get, though, that Fire is more damage based and maybe not meant for soloing everything.

[Sovera]

4 hours ago, Tsuko said:

Thematic weaknesses are fun but i cant agree they can become almost unplayable holes.

 

Fiery Armor need a serious rework.

 

Not enough accurate, need to think at this.

I'm not seeing it, Tsuko. Yes, Shield is one of the best all rounders, but should that really mean Fire Armor needs a serious rework? I've done the solo hardmode ITF (without debuffed players) and if a squishy Fire Armor can do it how much of a rework does it need? Only one in a world where Incarnates do not exist but that is not the case.

 

3 hours ago, Hero Star said:

Cant tactics be used to for fear protection?

 

The biggest deal breaker for me on Fire Armor is the lack of End Recovery Debuff Resistance. I think Consume has End Drain Resistance, but one without the other seems kind of useless. I get, though, that Fire is more damage based and maybe not meant for soloing everything.

Tactics gives resistance, not protection, AKA fears last less instead of simply not happen. I had some early deaths with it until I wised up. End recovery debuff is a problem, but again, hit first the enemies who do it, use Recovery Serum, use Consume to recover endurance, use inspirations, etc.

 

In a world without Recovery Serum and etc? Sure, but it's not the case

 

 

I do GET what people are saying but should we really look at it as the only armors worth playing are the ones who 100% protect against 100% of everything? I've done my share of content against endurance and recovery debuffing enemies and survived it (in some cases I've done better than the rest of my whole team) just alternating Consume and Recovery Serum. A good part of being a good player is strategizing. Not much need for it when we can just run in toggles up and ignore most or all mechanics but in other games the difference lays in knowing what enemy does, when they do it, how to stop it. A simply example in CoH that saves -so- much time is timing KDs on Crey PPs to they flop down at around 20% in order to kill them while they are doing the getting up animation and not pop their T9.

[VV]

I have been playing FA for years as one of my primaries and even I only learned a couple months ago that Consume provides End Debuff resistance. Note that this Res enhances as you enhance the EndMod of Consume.  So, on my FA tank, it gives a 98.75% resist, which basically means I can ignore any energy zappers. While it does not give Recovery Debuff Resistance, it does give bonus to your Recovery, another little talked about gem. But, to me, it does not seem relevant, since I hardly ever run out of energy before everything is dead.

 

Fear is about the only issue my FA faces. It can be heavily mitigated through set bonuses, but when fighting stuff like +4x8 Drudges (I think they are) or anything that can stack a ton of Fears on you, it can be a bit of a problem. That just becomes a matter of targeting a timing, though.

 

And this, I think is the important point. If you make a tank pretty much immune to everything, combat just becomes stand and button mash. With small weaknesses here and there, tactics, the actual skill, not the power, becomes important. Like, if I'm going up against something with a lot of fear, I don't mind taking the time to prioritize targets. A little challenge makes the game more interesting.

[Warboss]

I think after all these years of Tanking the only issue I have with Fire Armor is no KB resistance/protection/whatever it's called (goes for Dark Armor as well). I don' t think they'd be OP if that became inherent in the set. Temp Protection would be and ideal place for it. I know it's not a big deal to slot for KB protection (many different options and approaches with IO sets), but why should we have to (especially on Tanks).

[Jaxman100]

I'd be for KB protection of say 3 or 4 in Temp Protection.  Not so much you won't get knocked back on teams but soloing at lower levels it would happen less.  And still give a reason to slot for set bonuses or the KB Protection IOs.

 

Maybe 4 for tankers, 3 for Brutes and Scrappers.

[Hew]

 

It would be nice for 90% cold, you know, for cold. This is pretty nasty, and as long as I pop consume before dealing with sappers, it is immensely hard to take down. Cold moves to 87%, toxic to 67, and psi to 47 with saturated melee core. 

 

This is with _agility_ core, not any alpha that provides resist. 

 

PLEASE do not go messing around with fire armor. Thank you.

 

(edit: this is with no tanker proc stacks, and with ageless (not barrier) as my destiny)

Edited November 19, 2020 by Hew

[VV]

2 hours ago, Hew said:

 

It would be nice for 90% cold, you know, for cold. This is pretty nasty, and as long as I pop consume before dealing with sappers, it is immensely hard to take down. Cold moves to 87%, toxic to 67, and psi to 47 with saturated melee core. 

 

This is with _agility_ core, not any alpha that provides resist. 

 

PLEASE do not go messing around with fire armor. Thank you.

 

(edit: this is with no tanker proc stacks, and with ageless (not barrier) as my destiny)

This is really nice, Hew. Can you drop your build for it. I'd love to see if I could get my numbers closer to yours.

[Hew]

8 hours ago, VV said:

This is really nice, Hew. Can you drop your build for it. I'd love to see if I could get my numbers closer to yours.

This isnt actually the final build. The final build sits on beta and has been further tweaked. 

 

The build is built with perma-soul drain in mind, and has been tinkered with endlessly since beta dropped. For instance, the final build no longer has blazing aura, but has max-rech slotted fiery embrace, to maximize +damage. Teleport is there for combat teleport and fold space. It is actually 1 slot short for fold space.

 

Literally all I do is walk a few feet, fold space, fences, drain, burn, move on to next mob with combat teleport while original drain is still running. Touch of fear fills some damage here and there, as does maul. 

 

I have to export somehow the beta build, but this is the foundation on its build:

 

Hero Plan by Mids' Reborn : Hero Designer 2.6.0.7
https://github.com/Crytilis/mids-reborn-hero-designer

Click this DataLink to open the build!

bleh: Level 50 Natural Tanker
Primary Power Set: Fiery Aura
Secondary Power Set: Dark Melee
Power Pool: Teleportation
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Speed
Ancillary Pool: Mu Mastery

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Fire Shield -- Ags-ResDam/EndRdx(A), Ags-ResDam(5), Ags-ResDam/Rchg(7), UnbGrd-Max HP%(7)
Level 1: Shadow Punch -- KntCmb-Acc/Dmg(A), KntCmb-Dmg/EndRdx(3), KntCmb-Dmg/Rchg(3), KntCmb-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(5)
Level 2: Smite -- SprGntFis-Rchg/+Absorb(A), SprGntFis-Acc/Dmg(45), SprGntFis-Dmg/Rchg(45), SprGntFis-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(46), SprGntFis-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(46), SprGntFis-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(46)
Level 4: Blazing Aura -- FuroftheG-ResDeb%(A)
Level 6: Shadow Maul -- ScrDrv-Dam%(A), ScrDrv-Acc/Dmg(17), ScrDrv-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(43), ScrDrv-Dmg/EndRdx(43), ScrDrv-Dmg/Rchg(45)
Level 8: Temperature Protection -- GldArm-3defTpProc(A), StdPrt-ResDam/Def+(9)
Level 10: Healing Flames -- NmnCnv-Heal/EndRdx(A), NmnCnv-Heal(11), NmnCnv-Heal/Rchg(11), StdPrt-ResKB(31)
Level 12: Taunt -- MckBrt-Taunt(A), MckBrt-Taunt/Rng(13), MckBrt-Taunt/Rchg/Rng(13), MckBrt-Taunt/Rchg(15)
Level 14: Consume -- Arm-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(A), SynSck-EndMod/+RunSpeed(15)
Level 16: Plasma Shield -- Ags-ResDam/EndRdx(A), Ags-ResDam(17), Ags-ResDam/Rchg(19), Ags-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(19), Ags-EndRdx/Rchg(21)
Level 18: Burn -- Erd-Dmg(A), Erd-%Dam(21), Erd-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(23), Obl-%Dam(23), ScrDrv-Dam%(25), Arm-Dam%(25)
Level 20: Siphon Life -- SprMghoft-Acc/Dmg(A), SprMghoft-Dmg/Rchg(39), SprMghoft-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(39), SprMghoft-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(40), SprMghoft-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(40), SprMghoft-Rchg/Res%(40)
Level 22: Touch of Fear -- Empty(A), Empty(34), Empty(34), Empty(34), Empty(37), Empty(39)
Level 24: Recall Friend -- Empty(A), Empty(43)
Level 26: Boxing -- Empty(A)
Level 28: Tough -- Ags-ResDam/EndRdx(A), Ags-ResDam(29), Ags-ResDam/Rchg(29)
Level 30: Soul Drain -- SprAvl-Rchg/KDProc(A), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(31), SprAvl-Dmg/EndRdx(31), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(33), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(33), ToHit-I(33)
Level 32: Teleport Foe -- BlsoftheZ-ResKB(A), Empty(42)
Level 35: Electrifying Fences -- GrvAnc-Hold%(A), PstBls-Dam%(36), TraoftheH-Dam%(36), Bmbdmt-+FireDmg(36), Ann-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(37), JvlVll-Dam%(37)
Level 38: Midnight Grasp -- SprBlsCol-Rchg/HoldProc(A), SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg(42), SprBlsCol-Dmg/EndRdx(48), SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(48), SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(48)
Level 41: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(42)
Level 44: Long Range Teleport -- Empty(A)
Level 47: Dark Consumption -- Arm-Dmg/Rchg(A)
Level 49: Weave -- Rct-ResDam%(A), ShlWal-ResDam/Re TP(50), LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(50), LucoftheG-Def(50)
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Gauntlet 
Level 1: Prestige Power Dash -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Slide -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Quick -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Rush -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Surge -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run 
Level 2: Swift -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Health -- Pnc-Heal/+End(A), NmnCnv-Regen/Rcvry+(9), Mrc-Rcvry+(27)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- PwrTrns-+Heal(A), PwrTrns-EndMod(27)
Level 50: Melee Core Embodiment 
Level 50: Agility Core Paragon 
Level 50: Ageless Core Epiphany 
------------

Edited November 19, 2020 by Hew