Could self flagging for pvp in any zone be a thing?

[Haijinx]

4 hours ago, Heraclea said:

Again, it's the story of Twixt.  Twixt was an academic's (terribly flawed) research project that was theoretically about the difference between formal rules and community norms.  He decided to test this hypothesis by playing a character who ganked other characters in PvP zones, even the ones that didn't want to PvP.  This included TPing players into police drones when that was still possible.  He got dozens of complaints and petitions that were ignored, because everything he was doing was consistent with the formal rules of PvP, which allow ganking hostile characters, whether they want to ply that or not. 

 

I avoid PvP generally.  Of the several MMOs I've played, I've never seen a single one that was fair to or had a place for non-stealthed melee characters.  We were only targets, with no way to force characters to remain in melee range, and subject to getting burst down at range by poorly resisted attacks.  In CoH in particular, toggle dropping is a terrible and annoying mechanic.  Since you don't have mez defense, only resistance, even a half second's mez you have to wait out a cooldown before turning your key defenses back on.  If we had cage-match PvP, two characters in a 6' box,  with normal PvE rules applied, that might be fun; zone PvP is not so much.  PvP builds are exotic distortions of the game.  There's something weird about the travel power Hami-O that makes them command an insane price; this is apparently for PvP and I have no idea what that's all about.  None of my builds is made for PvP, and that apparently puts me at a serious disadvantage even if I wanted to check it out. 

 

So I don't PvP much.  But I am fully aware that if I enter a PvP zone, I am at risk of being targeted and killed from afar without being able to do much about it.  That's what I signed up for when I went there.  The rules and mechanics are frustrating, but they're the rules. 

We here at left Twixt hereby denounce what right Twixt may or may not have done.

[ZacKing]

14 hours ago, GastlyGibus said:

No, I'm not wrong. It's a player versus player zone. Literally the entire reason for the zone's existence is to fight and kill other players. Going into the zone and expecting people to not attack you is like signing up for a paintball match and getting upset because people are shooting at you. It's part of the zone. It is literally designed to be that way. It isn't "griefing" to use a zone in exactly the way it was intended.

You go inside of the zone. The game warns you multiple times that you can and will be attacked by other players. Continuing to play in the zone after the 30 second countdown is you consenting to being attacked. There is no argument here. You're getting upset because people are using the zone for exactly its intended purpose, i.e., to attack other players.

Man you're still not getting it.  We all know what the zone is for.  the zone is for PVP we get it.  That's not a free license to treat others like crap because you can.  People go in there to work on badges or get temps for stuff.  Sure you can attack them if you want, but if they send a tell saying "hey I'm just here to grab a temp for a TF later, mind cutting me a break?" or something doesn't mean you should be a dick about it and ruin their fun.  It's called treating other gamers with a little respect and keeping in mind not everyone enjoys the same things you do.  Go and find someone else who is interested in engaging you and the experience is that much better for you both. 

 

14 hours ago, GastlyGibus said:

If you don't like getting ganked, either learn to adapt, or don't go in the zone. It really is as simple as that.

LOL!  that's so has nothing to do with what I'm saying man.  has nothing to do with adapting, it's called treating a fellow player and human being with some courtesy.

 

10 hours ago, Black Zot said:

Common courtesy and pvp are mutually exclusive.

yeah that's like totally false dude in most cases.  There are a couple of real pricks though who give everyone who likes PVP a bad rep. 

 

14 hours ago, GastlyGibus said:

PvP is dead in this game because the Issue 13 changes broke it almost irreparably. Assholes exist in every single PvP game in existence, and those games aren't dead because of them. League of Legends has one of the most toxic communities I've ever experienced in an online, player versus player game, and it still remains a popular game.

yeah we all know about the history of it.  what I'm saying is PVP is what it is now and more people could engage in it and tehre's those out there who are interested in learning about it, but the couple of pricks out there leave them with a bad experience so they give up. 

[arcane]

Zac, this thread is about what is allowable without being banned for harassment, not what is ideal behavior. You seem to be missing that.

[GastlyGibus]

Well, actually, this thread is about whether players should be able to flag themselves for PvP or not. Basically being able to opt-out of PvP entirely.

I've already explained why it shouldn't be an option. The same tired points keep being made that I've already responded to, so I have nothing further to add.

Edited July 14, 2020 by GastlyGibus

[ZacKing]

8 minutes ago, arcaneholocaust said:

Zac, this thread is about what is allowable without being banned for harassment, not what is ideal behavior. You seem to be missing that.

Yeah I know dude.  thanks tho

[macskull]

2 hours ago, ZacKing said:

yeah we all know about the history of it.  what I'm saying is PVP is what it is now and more people could engage in it and tehre's those out there who are interested in learning about it, but the couple of pricks out there leave them with a bad experience so they give up. 

I would argue that those who are seriously interested in PvP will not give up after a few bad experiences because they understand they're starting off from square one and they're not going to be any good for a while. Likewise, those people going into PvP zones for badges/temp powers/whatever and complaining about being attacked were probably never going to be interested in PvP in the first place. I think it's less about the mechanics of the game and more about this game's population as a whole. While a common argument against PvP in this game is that the game didn't originally have PvP and PvP has been responsible for many nerfs and powers changes, the fact of the matter is that it was stated from before the game's release that there was going to be PvP, PvP was added only about a year after launch, and there's only been one time ever where PvP was the sole reason a power got nerfed or changed in PvE and I guarantee you don't even know about it.

 

CoH is a very casual-friendly MMO. It's very easy to pick up and have a rudimentary understanding of the game, it's not particularly challening by any means, and there's no "grind" that you have to keep up with a la WoW. To the majority of the playerbase, these are positives, but the types of players who are attracted to that sort of thing are also probably not the type of players that would have a serious interest in PvP in any form. That being said, there are many resources out there for players who are interested in learning about PvP and the PvP community as a whole is relatively welcoming of new people coming in with questions.

[Twisted Toon]

2 hours ago, ZacKing said:

LOL!  that's so has nothing to do with what I'm saying man.  has nothing to do with adapting, it's called treating a fellow player and human being with some courtesy.

Unfortunately, not even the Devs can enforce courtesy in every aspect of the game.

Especially a portion of the game that pits players against other players.

If they tried, the game would become a ghost town.

 

Being courteous to others should be the responsibility of the individual, not a governing body.

Key word being responsibility.

[ZacKing]

37 minutes ago, Twisted Toon said:

Unfortunately, not even the Devs can enforce courtesy in every aspect of the game.

Especially a portion of the game that pits players against other players.

If they tried, the game would become a ghost town.

 

Being courteous to others should be the responsibility of the individual, not a governing body.

Key word being responsibility.

Right on.  this is what I was trying to say and I guess I could have been better at expressing it.  Self flagging isn't needed if people can learn to be courteous and respectful of others. 

[MunkiLord]

  

On 7/13/2020 at 4:25 PM, macskull said:

That being said, it is players attacking other players, which is by definition PvP. Is it high-quality PvP? No, but that's not the point.

I don't think PvP is dead here. I'd say as far as high-end PvP goes it's been more active more continuously than it was back on live at any point after I16 or so, and that's with an overall playerbase that's a fraction of the live population. This game's PvP population took a huge hit when the I13 changes were rolled out against the protests of nearly every PvPer and it never really recovered but that's a different story. It's also worth pointing out that the types of players that tend to exhibit the behavior we're discussing are also pretty bottom-of-the-barrel PvPers who aren't taken seriously by the PvP community at large.

I remember those changes well. I had my nice shiny FOTM Ice/Energy Blaster, then a month later the PvP changes happened. I was new to PvP in this game so it didn't piss me off, but I did not feel like going through the process of leveling and slotting a new character that I was mainly gonna use for PvP.

 

8 hours ago, ZacKing said:

Man you're still not getting it.  We all know what the zone is for.  the zone is for PVP we get it.  That's not a free license to treat others like crap because you can.  People go in there to work on badges or get temps for stuff.  Sure you can attack them if you want, but if they send a tell saying "hey I'm just here to grab a temp for a TF later, mind cutting me a break?" or something doesn't mean you should be a dick about it and ruin their fun.  It's called treating other gamers with a little respect and keeping in mind not everyone enjoys the same things you do.  Go and find someone else who is interested in engaging you and the experience is that much better for you both.

I think the person going into a PvP zone then asking and/or demanding not to be attacked is the primary person being rude. They are asking people to ignore valid rules, intent of a zone, and what the other people want to do. They are asking/demanding everyone accommodate them and what they want regardless of how the other players feel.

[Xanatos]

Rule 1 of zone pvp: Turn off the chat tab so other players can't  broadcastvoke or broadcastplacate you.

[macskull]

I'm pretty sure enemy local/broadcast chat is disabled by default. You have to intentionally enable it.

[SwitchFade]

General/pvp chat is the true unresistable taunt. And it has no aggro limit.

[ShardWarrior]

15 hours ago, MunkiLord said:

I think the person going into a PvP zone then asking and/or demanding not to be attacked is the primary person being rude. They are asking people to ignore valid rules, intent of a zone, and what the other people want to do. They are asking/demanding everyone accommodate them and what they want regardless of how the other players feel.

I agree up to a point.  It all depends on the situation.  Personally, I do not see the harm in someone asking to be left alone if they are badging.  Were it me and I attacked someone, if they asked nicely I would have no problem accommodating them.  I have no issue extending that courtesy to a fellow player.  Just because it is a PVP zone does not mean my fun supersedes theirs.  I can always go find someone else who is more interested in the same thing.  I think people can (and should) be adults about the whole thing.

[Bionic_Flea]

It depends on how they ask.

 

- LOL You got me.  Hey mind if I get some badges now that you killed me?

 

vs

 

- YOU F$%^&ING A$%^&*!!! CAN'T YOU SEE I'M TRYING TO GET A BADGE, BROCCOLI BRAIN? *(broccoli brain substituted for more colorful language).

 

Which one gets better treatment, I wonder . . .

[arcane]

53 minutes ago, Bionic_Flea said:

It depends on how they ask.

 

- LOL You got me.  Hey mind if I get some badges now that you killed me?

 

vs

 

- YOU F$%^&ING A$%^&*!!! CAN'T YOU SEE I'M TRYING TO GET A BADGE, BROCCOLI BRAIN? *(broccoli brain substituted for more colorful language).

 

Which one gets better treatment, I wonder . . .

These phrasings were not quite what I had in mind, but I do react differently to different badger attitudes as well. It tends to go one of two ways. If I do decide to hunt down a badger, it’d likely be because they made their case in a snarky, passive aggressive, condescending way. Or I didn’t see their request in the first place because what kind of masochist wants to be a part of RV broadcast chat.

[Twisted Toon]

57 minutes ago, Bionic_Flea said:

It depends on how they ask.

 

- LOL You got me.  Hey mind if I get some badges now that you killed me?

 

vs

 

- YOU F$%^&ING A$%^&*!!! CAN'T YOU SEE I'M TRYING TO GET A BADGE, BROCCOLI BRAIN? *(broccoli brain substituted for more colorful language).

 

Which one gets better treatment, I wonder . . .

I don't know. Broccoli Brain might just be humorous enough let them get away with it...

[M3z]

Crazy how upset this community still gets dying in a pvp zone or even just discussing pvp lol

[Hyperstrike]

Just now, M3z said:

Crazy how upset this community still gets dying in a pvp zone or even just discussing pvp lol

PVP is the unwanted stepchild system of CoH.
Some may like it.
But, for many, it's about as welcome as having teeth extracted rectally, using a 4" hole saw.  With no anesthetic.

[M3z]

Just now, Hyperstrike said:

PVP is the unwanted stepchild system of CoH.
Some may like it.
But, for many, it's about as welcome as having teeth extracted rectally, using a 4" hole saw.  With no anesthetic.

Yeah I never got the "PVP is the unwanted stepchild system of CoH" when wasn't it planned to be in the game fairly early on or even since beta?

 

Also dying in a 10+ year old game is like having your teeth extracted rectally? ok

[Lines]

14 minutes ago, M3z said:

Yeah I never got the "PVP is the unwanted stepchild system of CoH" when wasn't it planned to be in the game fairly early on or even since beta?

I mean, that's literally why.

 

 

I dunno if folks are upset about PvP in general here. Or upset at all. The conversation seems to be about particular yet ambiguous behaviours that could manifest through PvP. The lines someone would need to cross to be worth reporting are independant of any PvP system, and even then it wouldn't be hard to avoid.

 

I've seen bad PvP behaviour in other games, but not CoH. I've enjoyed what little PvP I've done, but I made a point to play with friends who I knew wouldn't take it seriously and we'd muck about. I've got into a couple random fights in RV, and that was fun but daft, wildly flying about.

Edited July 15, 2020 by Lines

[Hyperstrike]

11 minutes ago, M3z said:

Yeah I never got the "PVP is the unwanted stepchild system of CoH" when wasn't it planned to be in the game fairly early on or even since beta?

 

Also dying in a 10+ year old game is like having your teeth extracted rectally? ok

I said "for many".   Not "for me".  Not "for you".
Some people simply loathe PVP.  PERIOD.
Get over it.
 

[Hyperstrike]

1 minute ago, Lines said:

I've seen bad PvP behaviour in other games, but not CoH.

Twixt

https://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/8108/random/playing-by-the-rules-of-twixt

[Dazl]

In this warm and fuzzy PvP, you can also ask the PvP'er to not only leave you alone but help you find the badges too. Maybe help protect you from the other nasty PvP'ers who don't want to hold hands and sing kumbaya.

 

 

 

 

 

[Lines]

3 minutes ago, Hyperstrike said:

Twixt

https://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/8108/random/playing-by-the-rules-of-twixt

I think the conclusion here is a great point. It's one thing to break the game's terms and conditions and another to break unspoken societal rules of engagement. Devs may not have jurisdiction over the latter, but the society can and will reign over it by ostracising those who don't abide.

 

On the other hand, those unspoken rules can get quite toxic themselves and the communities can become very insular. I think I've been on both sides of that elsewhere.

 

These statements aren't pointed at anyone here, mind you. That's not been my experience of CoH. Though I usually keep to myself. I'm sure others might feel differently though.

[ZacKing]

2 hours ago, Crimsonpyre said:

In this warm and fuzzy PvP, you can also ask the PvP'er to not only leave you alone but help you find the badges too. Maybe help protect you from the other nasty PvP'ers who don't want to hold hands and sing kumbaya.

yeah thanks for reinforcing the point that there's a couple of bad actors making the whole community look bad.  I guess those badge hunters are a real match for those l33t pvp skillz of yours that you can't leave them alone for 30 seconds