Weekly Discussion 59: Veteran Level Rewards

[GM Miss]

Weekly discussion 59 - Week 7/12/20-7/18/20:

 

⚔️YOU VOTED: Let's talk about Veteran Level Rewards!⚔️ Suggested by Darkneblade who will receive the 'Weekly Discussion MVP' golden title on a character of their choosing! 

 

❓Things to think about:

Every 3rd veteran level through 99, you will receive a veteran badge and a number of Empyrean Merits. The number of Empyrean Merits starts at 20 and decreases by 5 after every 25 veteran levels. After veteran level 99, you will no longer receive Empyrean Merits as veteran rewards.

 

The full breakout for veteran reward Empyrean Merits is below:

• 3 to 24: 20 Empyrean Merits - 3, 6, 9, 12, 15, 18, 21, 24 = 160 Empyrean Merits
• 27 to 48: 15 Empyrean Merits - 27, 30, 33, 36, 39, 42, 45, 48 = 120 Empyrean Merits
• 51 to 75: 10 Empyrean Merits - 51, 54, 57, 60, 63, 66, 69, 72, 75 = 90 Empyrean Merits
• 78 to 99: 5 Empyrean Merits - 78, 81, 84, 87, 90, 93, 96, 99 = 40 Empyrean Merits
  • total = 410 EM

Every veteran level through 11 that you do not receive Empyrean Merits, you will receive 120 Incarnate Threads. After veteran level 11, you will no longer receive Incarnate Threads as veteran rewards.

 

The full breakout for veteran reward Incarnate Threads is below:

• 1 to 11: 120 Incarnate Threads ( 1, 2, 4, 5, 7, 8, 10, 11 = 960 Incarnate Threads)
  • total = 960 IT

In addition to veteran badges, Empyrean Merits, and Incarnate Threads, every 15th veteran level through 90, you will receive a character respec and costume token. That is levels 15, 30, 45, 60, 75 and 90 for a total of 6 respecs and free costume tokens.

 

Let's Chat 😄

Edited July 13, 2020 by GM Miss

[Bill Z Bubba]

Since the removal of dbl inf when disabling Earn XP, after vetlvl 99 the only benefit to continued lvling is the lvlup batch of insps and the pretty FX.

For my main, I still have Earn XP disabled because I never want him to go above vetlvl 666. Can anything be done to return some kind of balancing reward for the disabling of Earn XP?

[zenijos10]

I would like Veteran rewards especially badges to go to 999 (this might cause some ambivalence with badge hunters).  Perhaps just 5 em every 3 levels other than badges, or even cooler might be some kind of expendable temp power every several levels like a 5 charge lore summon that can be used in conjunction with your normal one. 

Edited July 13, 2020 by zenijos10

[Apparition]

This is just pie in the sky wishful thinking, but I would like to see Incarnate threads and Empyrean merits removed from veteran levels.  It makes Incarnate abilities too easy to come by and leads to many saying that the game “is too easy.”

[Bill Z Bubba]

10 minutes ago, Apparition said:

This is just pie in the sky wishful thinking, but I would like to see Incarnate threads and Empyrean merits removed from veteran levels.  It makes Incarnate abilities too easy to come by and leads to many saying that the game “is too easy.”

I suspect that all those folks suffering from altitus would probably throw a rod were that to come to pass. I also suspect it would just lead to more people farming the hell out of Heather's arc in DA.

 

While I'm definitely in the camp seeing the rather rabid effects of power creep in the game, I also think that ship has sailed completely and I sure as hell wouldn't want to go back to the incredibly solo-UNfriendly incarnate progress scheme we had before the snap.

[ImpousVileTerror]

Trying to touch these mechanics in particular would be something of a powder keg, from my perspective.  It's a terrible balancing act for any Dev working on "endgame" for City of Heroes, which has ALWAYS had the great strength of alts being the true infinite endgame.

If you put in some kind of endless grind awards, it may fulfil the desires of those character-monogamists out there, but you then risk alienating the players who want to make use of their 1000 character slots.

I haven't got to experience it in full depth, but I'm content with the present Veteran Level reward scheme.  It's there for those who want to strive for it.  It doesn't stretch on forever.  It doesn't incentivize endless grind to the exclusion of actual gameplay.

I don't think it's perfect, but it's a damned sight better than what it could become, especially if this were still a for-profit game.  Of course, if some folks can brainstorm up some nice ideas, I'll be sure to toss them my support!

[Heraclea]

I don't have much issues with the veteran rewards.  I don't really do 'mains', so my highest veteran level achieved is still at the 10 empyrean merit every three levels point.   I generally consider a character 'done' when I have gotten all six of their chosen incarnate powers to t4.  I have three characters that have gotten there on Torchbearer: Heraclea, who has a double t4 (Barrier and Ageless); an ice/plants blaster who has full t4 at vet level 23 (main Hami raider); and of course a fire armor brute (DB/fire) who passed Heraclea in veteran levels last month.  I have quite a few that are close to full t4 (don't usually prioritize Judgment on a blaster for instance). 

 

I will say that veteran powers are much less grindy on HC than they were in the old game.  I had quite a few level 50s on Victory (at least 30) and the prospect of getting them all kitted out with veteran unlocks was quite daunting, and made me lose interest in the game before the end.

 

My one suggestion would be to have an intermediate tier of combined empyrean merits below the Transcendent; say, one that needs/converts to 10 instead of 50.  My full t4 characters are basically playing for the benefit of alts.  My top two don't have 50 in their future any more, especially since I don't do a whole lot of incarnate content.  Mailing one empyrean merit to myself means a lot of email sitting around.  But I've only achieved enough on one character (the Hami raider) to email myself a Transcendent merit once.  An intermediate level would clear up some of the clutter. 

[Apparition]

13 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

I suspect that all those folks suffering from altitus would probably throw a rod were that to come to pass. I also suspect it would just lead to more people farming the hell out of Heather's arc in DA.

 

While I'm definitely in the camp seeing the rather rabid effects of power creep in the game, I also think that ship has sailed completely and I sure as hell wouldn't want to go back to the incredibly solo-UNfriendly incarnate progress scheme we had before the snap.

It was needed for SCoRE because it was a very small server.  With servers the population of Homecoming, it just doesn’t work IMO.  Not without unending new Incarnate content, which Homecoming just can’t provide with its very limited resources.

 

Like I said, it’s a pie in the sky wish which I 110% never expect to happen, but the gifted Incarnate threads and Empyrean merits are having a detrimental effect on the game.

[Nemu]

When you hit vet level 9999 you get the null the gull temp power. You know, the one that makes you omnipotent.

[mechahamham]

Untying Incarnate progress from iTrials is something I'd wish they'd done on the Live servers. I hated everything shifting to a 'now we must raid' paradigm. However, the power creep is real and detrimental.

 

With the advent of 24/7 afk farming and endless passive experience, that means the game is absolutely full to brimming with level 50s who have no idea how to play their characters, yet are so powerful that all they need to do is spam their incarnate powers to survive anything outside 54x8 content. These are also, by consequence, the same people who simply cannot function exemplared in events like all the wonderful zombie invasions we've been having this last week.

 

Case in point: I joined an 'Deadly Apocalypse' Halloween banner event team in Talos on Excelsior yesterday that managed to take down the banners and gm that followed. I figured that, as a 24ish fire blaster, my damage might help those who didn't already have the badges along. I then followed a small part of that league to Boomtown to tackle a zombie invasion.

 

There was simply no point in me being there. The 50s spammed their Judgements and Lore pets, wiping out the zombies before the under-50s could land even a few ticks of damage. Even the EB 'Nightmare' zombies went down frequently in less than five seconds after they spawned. The same is true of the Rikti invasions and seemed to be true of the Nemesis invasions several weeks ago.

 

Like others have said, the ship may have sailed. There's already a huge amount of 'damage' done. However, I can't help but wonder if making it somehow impossible to earn passive exp or even disallowing Veteran exp to be earned in AE wouldn't alleviate it a bit. (Queue *all* the farmers screeching in outrage at the suggestion.)

[Bill Z Bubba]

13 minutes ago, Heraclea said:

My one suggestion would be to have an intermediate tier of combined empyrean merits below the Transcendent; say, one that needs/converts to 10 instead of 50.  My full t4 characters are basically playing for the benefit of alts.  My top two don't have 50 in their future any more, especially since I don't do a whole lot of incarnate content.  Mailing one empyrean merit to myself means a lot of email sitting around.  But I've only achieved enough on one character (the Hami raider) to email myself a Transcendent merit once.  An intermediate level would clear up some of the clutter. 

On this, I'd still like the ability to convert threads into emps. As it stands, they can only be used after a certain point to buy from Luna.

 

Just on my 2 heaviest hitters, BZB Scrap is sitting on almost 1900 threads and 13 T4s. Granted, he DOES have 666 vet levels. He's killed a lot of enemies. Point being, even the thread drop rate from defeats is pretty dang high.

My farmer, on the other hand, only has 750 threads but she's been used to buy huge insps and ultimates from Luna and that 2nd account is currently sitting with 3 Transcendents in email with that number only destined to climb higher.
 

As per the spreadsheet, I have 6 characters fully T4ed and another 5 fully T3ed. (Again, I know, I'm a prime example of which Apparition speaks.)

 

But shouldn't we be able to use the threads for more than just an inf dump after a bin is full of insps and we have all the incarnate powers we'll ever want?

[Yomo Kimyata]

With respect to rewards, I tend to think they serve three basic purposes:

 

1.  Make your character better/stronger.

2.  Make one or more of your alts better/stronger.

3.  Dopamine rush.

 

These are all good and valid purposes, in my opinion, although I lean heavily towards the first and third.

 

It seems to me that with respect to 1. and veteran rewards, at a certain point, you aren't going to improve your character any more, so the current system seems just about right to me with tapering rewards.  By vet level 99, I'm guessing that if you aren't T4-ed out, that's by choice.  I'm not a fan of being able to farm incarnate stuff for your weaker alts, but that may just be me.

 

With respect to power creep and incarnates, I'm torn.  Personally, when I hit 50 I will T4 my alpha and maybe one or two others, but then it's just boringly overpowered to me, so I retire that alt.  At the same time, I'd hate to grind for weeks to get to that point rather than do it in an afternoon.

 

My two inf.

[Black Zot]

1 hour ago, Apparition said:

This is just pie in the sky wishful thinking, but I would like to see Incarnate threads and Empyrean merits removed from veteran levels.  It makes Incarnate abilities too easy to come by and leads to many saying that the game “is too easy.”

 

People will continue to whine the game is "too easy" long after the difficulty increases they demand have killed the server population forever.  "Too easy" is not a valid argument.

[iBot]

Vet levels are a good post 50 reward.  I like that I can get some useful things for continuing to play my favorite toon.  Unlike a lot of players I do not suffer from altitis.  I have a total of 17 toons of which 16 are currently 50 and 10 of those only exist because I wanted a toon for my SGs themed events.  I don't plan to make a whole lot more.  So having some reward for continuing to play toons that are already 50 is nice.  Badges for vet levels past 99 would be interesting but beyond that I wouldn't change anything about the system as it currently stands.

 

As for incarnates, I think that is a different concern.

[High-father]

Our characters were more powerful than the content provided on live close to shut-down. Let alone here. We can call it damage done, or hitting a content wall, whatever. But I don't think moving backwards and restricting what has already been provided is the answer. I would like to see more challenging content implemented to take advantage of all this excess power we've acquired. but that's off topic here in this thread.

 

The one thing I have always wanted to see is some means of acquiring an extra slot for powers. I would suggest perhaps every 100 vet levels rewarding the character with 1 extra slot for a power. I wouldn't allow a 7th slot in a single power. Just 1 slot to add to a power that has less than 6 slots, say up to a maximum of 3. It would certainly add some more flavor to high level builds. 

 

We're already incredibly powerful relative to the content we have to work with post 50. I don't see this breaking any further limits in the game.

 

Also, some perspective. Most people that are going to reply to this thread are hardcore players. People who spend several hours in-game most days. I think the "average" player is probably a bit more casual. I still see many many people saying "not 50 yet but when I get there..."

 

I can understand some of the frustration about the 'power creep'. I get it. But again, a lot of folks with that opinion are also opposed to "going back to the way it was", conceding that our current system is the lesser of 2 evils. 

 

Another couple of suggestions:

 

1. A special vet power pool that opens up at vet level 300, 500, 1000? Whatever finish line the development team feels is appropriate.

2. More cosmetics. Perhaps special auras or pieces inaccessible until X vet level. The ever popular "status symbol"

3. Post vet lv 100 - an enhancement of choice from a list of approved rewards every X levels. 

 

I like alternate advancement, like EQ introduced way back when. I don't want to "retire a character" just because there's no incentive to keep progressing. If I want to stop playing a character, I would rather it be because I just have something else I want to do instead of a lack of options. 

 

My 2 inf

[gameboy1234]

1 hour ago, Apparition said:

This is just pie in the sky wishful thinking, but I would like to see Incarnate threads and Empyrean merits removed from veteran levels.  It makes Incarnate abilities too easy to come by and leads to many saying that the game “is too easy.”

I feel much the same way.  I accidentally opened all incarnate slots on a new 50 just by doing basic content, and promptly lost interest in the end game system.  Leveling new characters is more fun.  I can't imagine anyone looking at 30 odd alts and saying "I need to completely incarnate every last one."  Even on live I picked two of my 50s to incarnate: one was my first 50 and my badger, and one was the Fort that I was having a ton of fun with.

 

I think for all the folks who want less rewards and more challenge, opening a new server would be the way to go.  Then folks who don't want change can stay where they're at, and folks who do want more challenge can migrate themselves.  We ran a poll some months ago on making the game more challenging, and the results were very obviously bimodal.  That is, there was a really large group that wanted the game to stay easy (I recall about 60% to 70% of people said this, a classic normal distribution) but there as a distinct population, nearly 20% who wanted the game to be less easy.  20% is probably enough for a new server, so I think we should investigate this possibility.  If enough folks continue to say "we want a harder game," then it might be worth actually implementing it.

 

[High-father]

3 minutes ago, gameboy1234 said:

I think for all the folks who want less rewards and more challenge, opening a new server would be the way to go. 

I think this is a fantastic idea!

 

3 minutes ago, gameboy1234 said:

I can't imagine anyone looking at 30 odd alts and saying "I need to completely incarnate every last one." 

I do 🙂 

[Apparition]

5 minutes ago, gameboy1234 said:

I think for all the folks who want less rewards and more challenge, opening a new server would be the way to go.  Then folks who don't want change can stay where they're at, and folks who do want more challenge can migrate themselves.  We ran a poll some months ago on making the game more challenging, and the results were very obviously bimodal.  That is, there was a really large group that wanted the game to stay easy (I recall about 60% to 70% of people said this, a classic normal distribution) but there as a distinct population, nearly 20% who wanted the game to be less easy.  20% is probably enough for a new server, so I think we should investigate this possibility.  If enough folks continue to say "we want a harder game," then it might be worth actually implementing it.

 

I would like that and would increase my monthly donation to compensate for the additional server, but I doubt that it would ever happen.  If it ever would though, I would also like to see the 1.5x and 2.0x XP temp powers removed, as they are another source of the game being seen as “too easy.”

[MTeague]

Part of me would like an "Opt Out" option to the Incarnate system entirely, for when you have a character who is not intended to become a godlike figure, but is just a normal human being with anger issues and some fancy gear.  But I recognize that I can just ignore the incarnate slots and deliberately leave them all blank, and just spend the threads on Super Inspirations.

 

As far as a new new server with a new ruleset.... I wouldn't hate the idea, esp if I liked the new toolset.... but it would add a supportability burden to the developers, as everytime they change something it would need to be tested in both arenas, and given thoughts to balancing them in both arenas.  I'm not sure they want to take that on. 

[chi1701]

2 minutes ago, Wyld3 said:

I think this is a fantastic idea!

 

I do 🙂 

Think making the game harder would only benefit those classes and builds that easy to solo level up. This would to a point force players to instead of having a variety of different power pools, youl be locked into leveling x class with x abilities just to either compete or stay alive. It could also lead to lfg group literally turning into a WoW lookalike, eg looking for melee dps, scrappers and brutes only or blasters for ranged.

[ImpousVileTerror]

Don't forget potential population schism issues with multiple servers with separate codebases.  Unless the Devs can implement some kind of truly Global Chat system, which would allow players on Live, Beta, and Special servers to all communicate with one another.

[Apparition]

15 minutes ago, MTeague said:

As far as a new new server with a new ruleset.... I wouldn't hate the idea, esp if I liked the new toolset.... but it would add a supportability burden to the developers, as everytime they change something it would need to be tested in both arenas, and given thoughts to balancing them in both arenas.  I'm not sure they want to take that on. 

Yeah, that’s why I don’t ever expect it to happen.  The Homecoming staff have more than enough on their plate as is.

[zenijos10]

I see a lot of people here want more difficulty.  Maybe veteran levels unlock the additional difficulty.  Once someone is vet level 100, they get access to +5 x1 mission difficulties and each x levels they get more difficulty settings culminating in +6 x8 once they hit 999.  Let xp and inf for added difficulty be same as for +4 as to not increase the farm rate.

Edited July 13, 2020 by zenijos10

[Frostbiter]

I think the system is fine as it is currently. I don't won't to see it made more difficult  a la Live. Right now everyone can have Incarnate Abilities by putting in the work but not a monumental amount of work like iTrials were.

[SwitchFade]

I'm fine with vet level rewards as is.