Rad or Invuln

[Bill Z Bubba]

6 minutes ago, Frosticus said:

Not sure about you guys, but I always refill my warburg nukes and my shivians after each mission.

I also spend about an hr at the start of each session emailing myself large inspirations, so I'm always def, res, tohit, and damage capped

 

They are basically part of my base stats, hit me up for some builds 😛

So NOW I know how to make my empathy/fighting pool defscrapper into a god. THANKS, MAN!!!

[Hyperstrike]

8 minutes ago, Frosticus said:

Not sure about you guys, but I always refill my warburg nukes and my shivians after each mission.

I also spend about an hr at the start of each session emailing myself large inspirations, so I'm always def, res, tohit, and damage capped

 

They are basically part of my base stats, hit me up for some builds :p

WHAP!

Homey don't think so!

Homey don't play dat!

[Xanatos]

Xanatos: *Uses P2W buffs*

Scrubs: THOSE DON'T COUNT

Xanatos: *Switches out the P2W for barrier's perma res & def buff which give the same bonus*

Scrubs: BARRIER DOESN'T COUNT EITHER

 

You guys are weird.

 

When I give build advice to others, it's based on the game as it is. Not the game with a bunch of arbitrary limitations I've set for myself.

[Bill Z Bubba]

9 minutes ago, Xanatos said:

Xanatos: *Uses P2W buffs*

Scrubs: THOSE DON'T COUNT

Xanatos: *Switches out the P2W for barrier's perma res & def buff which give the same bonus*

Scrubs: BARRIER DOESN'T COUNT EITHER

 

You guys are weird.

 

When I give build advice to others, it's based on the game as it is. Not the game with a bunch of arbitrary limitations I've set for myself.

Yes, we get it.

[Frosticus]

30 minutes ago, Xanatos said:

Xanatos: *Uses P2W buffs*

Scrubs: THOSE DON'T COUNT

Xanatos: *Switches out the P2W for barrier's perma res & def buff which give the same bonus*

Scrubs: BARRIER DOESN'T COUNT EITHER

 

You guys are weird.

 

When I give build advice to others, it's based on the game as it is. Not the game with a bunch of arbitrary limitations I've set for myself.

Me too. Homecoming is ok with multiboxing, so I always have a speed boost and adrenal boost on me. It's how the game is.

 

Cause in the words of the immortal Master P - I'm a no limit soldier

[Xanatos]

Just now, Frosticus said:

Me too. Homecoming is ok with multiboxing, so I always have a speed boost and adrenal boost on me. It's how the game is.

 

Cause in the words of the immortal Master P - I'm a no limit soldier

 

That doesn't seem like an optimal way to play.  I am glad to hear it works for you, but the benefit of the buffs would be outweighed by the micromanagement IMO. Those buffs only last a few minutes. You would be constantly switching between screens.

 

The P2W buffs, on the other hand, last eight hours. It's much  easier to build around them than dual-boxing with Emps, or collecting Warburg Nukes between missions, or whatever silly example you're using as false equivalence.

 

I know some people who also build around Kinetic Dampener and Base Buffs...but having to run to a vendor/base every 60-90 minutes would be too restricting to play IMO. The chief benefit of P2W is their fire and forget function.

[Infinitum]

1 hour ago, Hyperstrike said:

And this is why, when I present my builds I try to present the build with minimal addition of things like Incarnates stuff.

This way you know how the build itself performs.  Without having to try and factor in P2W buffs and stuff.

Alpha slots are perma, hybrid slots have a perma buff added when they aren't on.

 

If you are ignoring those things you are blatantly missing features that add to your strength, cost nothing, and are always on.

 

Even void radial can be a form of mitigation cause it causes -dmg debuff on the enemy.

 

Degenerative makes them a little easier to take down.

 

Ageless radial is a perma DDR buff-that lessens in value over its cycle built runs the course of the cycle. It's DDR is something that's valuable to any hybrid or defense set.

 

And as I have said with shield you can literally rotate melee core and one w the shield for only 2 min of downtime with 6 up.  That's no small feature any serious tanker builder should ignore - it should have an asterisk though I'll admit - it's rarely used cause the build is strong as is. 6 min of ultra godmode with no serious crashes is a significant tool at anyone's disposal.

 

Having said that P2W buffs or empowerment station buffs shouldn't be included in build advice because those are not inherently on tap like Incarnates are.

[Werner]

On 8/7/2020 at 11:39 AM, Infinitum said:

Having said that P2W buffs or empowerment station buffs shouldn't be included in build advice because those are not inherently on tap like Incarnates are.

I think it’s OK to include them as advice if your advice is something like “I recommend using the P2W survival buff with this build, as I tuned the build’s performance around it.” If that’s how you play, and how you recommend others play, that seems like reasonable advice. I think you’re more saying “when comparing builds, we should ignore that”, but I wouldn’t ignore it. I’d look at the build as it’s played, and just keep in mind that I might play differently. I think of it like the Pylon times - as long as we know what’s being used, it’s all fair game. When I heard 90% resists across the board on invuln, I wondered what I’d done wrong with my build, but it came down more to what was and wasn’t being included. I’m fine with that. I fear that if we try to go down the path of saying what other people should and shouldn’t count as part of their build, we’ll also end up hurting build innovation to the extent that anyone feels constrained by our standards. I’m not sure you get bragging rights if you say “my build is awesome, you just need to chug a small purple every minute”, but if you want to build around the availability of small purples, like stopping at 32.5% defense to focus on other priorities, that doesn’t seem entirely unreasonable. Chances are that most of the time you won’t need them more often than they drop naturally. Sorry, I feel like I’m blabbering on without really even understanding what point I’m trying to make. 

Edited August 8, 2020 by Werner

[Frosticus]

Serious question though,  if i select "no temp powers" for a TF do the p2w buffs still work? I actually dont use p2w buffs, or any temps, but I always select that for solo TFs to remove temptation.

[Bopper]

I love the fact the OP posted this topic on July 17th and hasn't returned to the forums since July 19th. Even they must have known this conversation was going to go off the rails and chose to check out early. Hopefully they got the answer they were looking for before leaving.

[CaptainLupis]

22 minutes ago, Bopper said:

I love the fact the OP posted this topic on July 17th and hasn't returned to the forums since July 19th. Even they must have known this conversation was going to go off the rails and chose to check out early. Hopefully they got the answer they were looking for before leaving.

They probably went super reflexes.

[Infinitum]

58 minutes ago, Werner said:

I think it’s OK to include them as advice if your advice is something like “I recommend using the P2W survival buff with this build, as I tuned the build’s performance around it.” If that’s how you play, and how you recommend others play, that seems like reasonable advice. I think you’re more saying “when comparing builds, we should ignore that”, but I wouldn’t ignore it. I’d look at the build as it’s played, and just keep in mind that I might play differently. I think of it like the Pylon times - as long as we know what’s being used, it’s all fair game. When heard 90% resists across the board on invuln, I wondered what I’d done wrong with my build, but it came down more to what was and wasn’t being included. I’m fine with that. I fear that if we try to go down the path of saying what other people should and shouldn’t count as part of their build, we’ll also end up hurting build innovation to the extent that anyone feels constrained by our standards. I’m not sure you get bragging rights if you say “my build is awesome, you just need to chug a small purple every minute”, but if you want to build around the availability of small purples, like stopping at 32.5% defense to focus on other priorities, that doesn’t seem entirely unreasonable. Chances are that most of the time you won’t need them more often than they drop naturally. Sorry, I feel like I’m blabbering on without really even understanding what point I’m trying to make. 

Ha ha nah I understand what you are saying and yeah I agree with 100% with what you are saying, but what I think the point im making is I think build advice should be limited to what is practically there on tap 100% of the time or close to it even, for instance you wont stop in the middle of the magisterium to visit a p2w or empowerment station.

[Xanatos]

11 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

Ha ha nah I understand what you are saying and yeah I agree with 100% with what you are saying, but what I think the point im making is I think build advice should be limited to what is practically there on tap 100% of the time or close to it even, for instance you wont stop in the middle of the magisterium to visit a p2w or empowerment station.

 

Do Magisterium trials take 8 hours?

[nihilii]

1 hour ago, Frosticus said:

Serious question though,  if i select "no temp powers" for a TF do the p2w buffs still work? I actually dont use p2w buffs, or any temps, but I always select that for solo TFs to remove temptation.

The P2W buffs will work on TFs even with "no temps" settings. I gleefully use them on my solo Master attempts.

[Frosticus]

12 minutes ago, nihilii said:

The P2W buffs will work on TFs even with "no temps" settings. I gleefully use them on my solo Master attempts.

that gives me pause. Enough to consider some build revamps. I have a strong aversion to consumables in games (personal issue), but these are hitting me right in the grey area.

 

Very interesting.

[Infinitum]

28 minutes ago, Xanatos said:

 

Do Magisterium trials take 8 hours?

No but say you ran it for 7 hours 45 min the day before, in the middle of the magisterium - the final fight - it runs out...

 

Oops. Not perma not reliable not static build info.

 

Thats My point.

[Werner]

21 minutes ago, nihilii said:

The P2W buffs will work on TFs even with "no temps" settings. I gleefully use them on my solo Master attempts.

Well, huh! I may have to reconsider my builds and my play. I just assumed the game counted them as temporary powers, so I treated them that way. But 8 hour refreshable availability is enough for me to personally consider them part of a build rather than temporary if the game thinks the same. I’ll spend hundreds of millions +5ing all my IOs for mostly minor boosts. Spending hundreds of millions over time on the P2W buffs doesn’t feel that much different to me. Hmmm.

[Xanatos]

15 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

No but say you ran it for 7 hours 45 min the day before, in the middle of the magisterium - the final fight - it runs out...

 

Oops. Not perma not reliable not static build info.

 

Thats My point.

 

Why wouldn't you reset it when you log back in?

[Infinitum]

15 minutes ago, Xanatos said:

 

Why wouldn't you reset it when you log back in?

Forgetfulness, im old, get awf mah lawn.

 

Nah you could, but my point and what im sticking with is anything not natively to the build or avail on tap from Incarnates isn't part of what I consider a build plan.

 

Not saying it doesnt work well, just not natively avail.

[SwitchFade]

7 hours ago, Infinitum said:

Forgetfulness, im old, get awf mah lawn.

 

Nah you could, but my point and what im sticking with is anything not natively to the build or avail on tap from Incarnates isn't part of what I consider a build plan.

 

Not saying it doesnt work well, just not natively avail.

Agreed, and I would would personally not consider summonables from incarnates either.

 

In fact, I look askance at the "I solo'd" posts, when they include temp powers and summons. Is it really solo, when you have lore, daggers, shivans? Not so much.

 

However, I do not judge those who play with them, good for them 😁 I just don't use them as it's not built into the toon to me. I also make toons primarily for theme and then also try and max them.

[Xanatos]

 

15 hours ago, Infinitum said:

Forgetfulness, im old, get awf mah lawn.

 

Nah you could, but my point and what im sticking with is anything not natively to the build or avail on tap from Incarnates isn't part of what I consider a build plan.

 

Not saying it doesnt work well, just not natively avail.

 

With respect, "natively available" is a term you've made up which has zero in game value. P2W buffs are active 100% of the time I'm in game. Because of this, they are a better indicator of how I play CoH than Incarnates and IOs. (Due to IOs/incarnates vanishing/decreasing when I exemplar.)

 

But hey, you do you. These last few replies show that lots of players have their own, subjective, list of what does/doesn't "count". That's the fun thing about COH - the freedom to choose: Playing optimally, playing with restrictions, playing thematically, a mixture of all three? All playstyles are completely valid in a gamer that is mostly just PVE with zero competitive element.

 

7 hours ago, SwitchFade said:

Agreed, and I would would personally not consider summonables from incarnates either.

 

In fact, I look askance at the "I solo'd" posts, when they include temp powers and summons. Is it really solo, when you have lore, daggers, shivans? Not so much.

 

However, I do not judge those who play with them, good for them 😁 I just don't use them as it's not built into the toon to me. I also make toons primarily for theme and then also try and max them.

 

When people say solo they mean they did it without other players. Similar to how soloing in a single player game works.

 

I can see why RPers might not see it that way, though. It's not just a game to them. It's an expression of character.

[Werner]

1 hour ago, Xanatos said:

When people say solo they mean they did it without other players. Similar to how soloing in a single player game works.

I agree with your definition, but I suspect most people will add additional restrictions, such as not two-boxing. I usually place a number of restrictions on myself when soloing challenges, but if I choose to post about it, then I’ll state it as solo plus all those restrictions. Most of my list are just how I usually play, though.

 

Heh. I remember one evening adding “no toggles” to my restrictions. Completely silly, and I wasn’t fighting +4x8 Arachnos or anything close, but it was still amusing.

[Infinitum]

2 hours ago, Xanatos said:

With respect, "natively available" is a term you've made up which has zero in game value. P2W buffs are active 100% of the time I'm in game. Because of this, they are a better indicator of how I play CoH than Incarnates and IOs. (Due to IOs/incarnates vanishing/decreasing when I exemplar.)

 

But hey, you do you. These last few replies show that lots of players have their own, subjective, list of what does/doesn't "count". That's the fun thing about COH - the freedom to choose: Playing optimally, playing with restrictions, playing thematically, a mixture of all three? All playstyles are completely valid in a gamer that is mostly just PVE with zero competitive element.

Well agree to disagree, because when I go level up my build the option to "buy this feature or that feature" is noticeably absent.  Ie not natively available from the build its an accurate description.

 

And again I'm not saying don't use them, all I'm saying is don't claim your set has 90% resistance to all because of p2w additions because it's not something the build comes with.

 

Moreover you don't really need them, you can build around every deficiency in every tank armor set - excluding ice - without needing those fillers.

 

Using them is a crutch you don't really need - especially with incarnates.  You can pick any one of my tank builds and it's largely unkillable to 99% of the game - and that 1% it is vulnerable to p2w won't help anyway.

 

Hell by your definition just buy inspirations - keep them loaded fed in your email and you will have a neverending supply of 1 min buffs that can cap every category. 

 

Same difference - still doesn't count to what a set is capable of without outside buffs.

[Hyperstrike]

Bah!  I'm right, the rest of you are all wrong.
DEAL!

Feel free to continue to discuss your wrongness amongst yourselves!


(Note: Totally joking on this one.)

[Xanatos]

52 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

Well agree to disagree, because when I go level up my build the option to "buy this feature or that feature" is noticeably absent.  Ie not natively available from the build its an accurate description.

 

Yes, I'm aware that this is a specific term that you have invented rules for. I understand that. I just don't understand how this term is useful in any way to anyone but you.

 

52 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

And again I'm not saying don't use them, all I'm saying is don't claim your set has 90% resistance to all because of p2w additions because it's not something the build comes with.

 

Eh?

 

My build caps at 90% res to all without using P2W.

 

The screenshots I posted earlier in the thread didn't use P2W buffs.

 

I use P2W so I can switch out Barrier for Ageless. (In terms of net build benefits, the P2W buffs allow me to add +defdebuffresist +endreducresist +enddrainresist to my build. This is essentially the only real change they provide to my build.)

 

52 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

Moreover you don't really need them, you can build around every deficiency in every tank armor set - excluding ice - without needing those fillers.

 

Using them is a crutch you don't really need - especially with incarnates.  You can pick any one of my tank builds and it's largely unkillable to 99% of the game - and that 1% it is vulnerable to p2w won't help anyway.

 

Yeah the PVE in this  game is easy as heck. I tank most stuff on my fire/fire blaster just fine. My invuln brute can tank 99% of the stuff in the game. My gut reaction to any talk of min/maxing is usually "who cares, this game is easy. Just roll whatever character you want, and then press random buttons."

 

I mean, I have Eagle's Claw and Laser Beam Eyes on my tanker because they look cool. Sure there's better options out there to improve my DPS. But will they improve the sheer, attention-seeking, experience of a 2.5 kick animation where you do a backflip? I think not.

 

But yes, back to min/maxing. Fine tuning stuff isn't about need. It's about making things optimal/easier. Because of Ageless, I don't have to worry as much when facing the ITF Kheldian boss ambush, Sappers, Carnies, Lord Recluse's End Drain, etc. Do I need it? No. It just makes the game easier.

 

And as it's not a need, it cannot be a crutch.

 

Make sense?

 

52 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

Hell by your definition just buy inspirations - keep them loaded fed in your email and you will have a neverending supply of 1 min buffs that can cap every category. 

 

Same difference - still doesn't count to what a set is capable of without outside buffs.

 

A lot of the powergamers I know do this with purple insps. They build for around 35% defense on their blasters, rely on insps or team-mates having manuevers, and then use those extra slots to crank their DPS up to 700 or something equally insane.

 

Valid playstyle. Valid builds. It's all about the goal of the player.

 

 

 

  

51 minutes ago, Hyperstrike said:

Bah!  I'm right, the rest of you are all wrong.
DEAL!

Feel free to continue to discuss your wrongness amongst yourselves!


(Note: Totally joking on this one.)

 

Damn, guess that's the thread over. GG, everyone. Was fun.

 

#nerfhyperstrike.

Edited August 8, 2020 by Xanatos