Natural Origin isn't just for sword/SR scrappers

[DoctorDitko]

2 hours ago, Shred Monkey said:

I do wish we could change origin of our toons, though.

Me, too!

 

From (ahem) the bio of the Ineffable Doctor Ditko:

 

Once a powerful and arrogant magician, he overreached himself and suffered a sorcerous backlash that left him unable to access the higher magics.

 

In despair and wandering, he was taken in by a kindly relativistic physicist who taught him the ways of his field. Now, having achieved his own advanced degree, he uses his knowledge of both science and sorcery to make the world a better place.

 

"Never Eff with Doctor Ditko!"

[Heraclea]

7 hours ago, Sovera said:

That's pretty limiting. If someone is a mutant with fast healing and uses swords to fight people are they tech? They are a mutant who uses a tool. Just like a perfectly normal human picking a sword to fight is still Natural origin. I f they are a perfectly normal human who goes around with a sword but has nanites in their blood that give him a regen ability then they'd be tech, all in my opinion.

On old live I had a sword/regen scrapper named Grignr, who was Technology origin.  If anyone was skeptical, I pointed out that Grignr was not really sure how his broadsword worked. 

[Ralathar44]

Yup it's all up to interpretation.  In general normal swords and melee and guns are natural, but weapons that are far more advanced than normal in nature are tech.  So a normal pistol?  Natural.  Pistols that fire curved bullets loaded with fire ammo?  Tech.  Thug Mastermind powerset - natural, Blaster Dual Pistols powerset - tech.  Because the thug MM relies on no significant advanced technology, just what is standardly available.  Meanwhile the DP blaster is using highly advanced pistols and ammunition not available to standard civilian or military.

Basically my rule is that if it'd be consider a huge step forwards in the level technology you'd expect a normal soldier/civilian to get hold of it's tech, but if it's normal every day stuff it's natural.  To the Punisher would be natural but Star Lord would be tech.  This is relative to OUR understanding of technology.  But if you wanted to consider someone with a sword to be a tech hero because swords have never been seen on their planet?  That's totally valid.

Let's say Grognar Bonebreak of the Ugug clan develops a martial art nobody can beat.  Even though it;'s just fighting skill using their own natural body you could RP that as "magic" origin because for their world they very well might consider him magic :D.  Any sufficiently advanced technology or skill is indistinguishable from magic :P.


Really the possibilities are near limitless and you could prolly make any character any origin with proper justification.

[MTeague]

Origin is extremely easy to rationalize for darn near anything you want it to be. 

 

My Claws/SR scrapper I have as Natural, even though conceptually she's been observered in super slow mo to begin dodging bullets even before they were fired when she should not have known the sniper was lining up, so there's a bit of psi in there, and some people would say that should be Mutant.

 

I also have a Birdman Energy/Thermal corruptor who is not human / space traveller, but his powers are basically inherent to his species.

[Williwaw]

18 hours ago, 0th Power said:

Any of the dragon ball z characters would be natural too. 
 

More food for thought:

 

Would the teenage mutant ninja turtles be mutant, science or natural?

 

Science.  Despite the word "mutant" in their name, they're not mutants as CoH defines the term, which is closer to Marvel's mutants. The TMNT were not born with their powers, making them Mutates (which is Science origin), not Mutants.

 

10 hours ago, Heraclea said:

No: any character whose attacks involve a sword, a mace, a staff, a bow, or a gun is Technology origin.  All of them are using tools. and tools are technology. 

 

I consider it Natural if the skill comes from the character, Technology or Magic if the skill is granted by the weapon.  If the character could pick up an entirely different sword and be just as powerful, then that's the person, not the weapon.

 

Though the line here is a thin one, granted.  A skilled swordsman wielding a magic sword could be Natural, Technology, or Magic depending on what you consider the character focus.

[Sakura Tenshi]

You're right about natural origin not necessarily meaning 'someone who trained to achieve their powers', but Superman's origin is science since kryptonians are not inherently capable of those feats in their natural habitat (a planet with a red sun, also possibly higher gravity since he's a John Cart of Mars expy), it's being on earth that made Superman special. (which, from a narrative standpoint you could read as: it's earth that gives superman his strength to defend it. He's an outsider who was charged with the earth's protection)

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

While there is certainly cross over and blurring of the lines, CoH itself along with the icons of the industry that we all know and mostly love, have given us standards and precedents to work with.

 

For example Captain America is your classic Science origin. While there are exceptions, one could argue the biggest difference between Science and Mutation when they over lap, is science tends to be more controlled in application and outcome. One could say the Red Skull as per the MCU could be called more of a mutation of the planned result. Mutation can be applied more to those who are random in their nature be it from birth or from exposure to radiation etc( Hulk and the FF are both def mutation, and in fact Im pretty sure these days marvel says basically human alive to day with power has like some kind of genetic ancestry dating back to the early inhumans or something though I could be terribly wrong on this bit)

 

Spider Man def is mutation, and again there have been plenty of issues that say the bite activated his latent x gene rather than out right imbuing him with the powers he gained so it really is a fickle barrel with him.

 

Wolverine, well old school wolvy gawds knows what his official back story is these days. He was so long lived and his original origins so clouded we couldnt even say for sure he wasnt some non human life form, as some early ideas around him included being a wolverine mutated into a human more like the TMNT concept, and him being the first mutant, an cave man type, very akin to DC's Vandal Savage. Then ofcourse his fighting ability is more attached to centuries of honing his skills, and his super weapons are the result of science.

 

CoH shows us a few examples with the Kheldians. Peace Bringers are natural, they are what they are. Nictus/warshades are what they are via science used to create a controlled mutation. If I gather the lore right, the war wolves are basically the failed by product, and are true mutations in that sense. Now obviously plan, and even consent to the procedure are not a must for any of the above origins, nor is getting the wanted outcome versus a random one. But typically more of such varied traits tend to be more attached to some origin stories then others, just like most vigilante origins start with the tragic loss of a loved on.

[tidge]

"Percy Winkley has benn added to your contacts"

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

4 minutes ago, Sakura Tenshi said:

You're right about natural origin not necessarily meaning 'someone who trained to achieve their powers', but Superman's origin is science since kryptonians are not inherently capable of those feats in their natural habitat (a planet with a red sun, also possibly higher gravity since he's a John Cart of Mars expy), it's being on earth that made Superman special. (which, from a narrative standpoint you could read as: it's earth that gives superman his strength to defend it. He's an outsider who was charged with the earth's protection)

Actually in the earliest version of superman, its not stated anywhere that the powers he had did not exist inherently in his people on his home world, in fact they are described as a race of supermen, who have achieved utopia, and their destruction is far more meant to be like a true tragic loss for all the universe and Kal El is truly like this spec of gold dust that has survived the storm that has blown away all the rest of the beach made of gold. Ideas like his powers being part of being on the Earth, and them coming from our sun all came much later, as did powers like his eye beams and flying.

[Haijinx]

The only Superhero game where origin was more than flavor text was Heroes Unlimited.

 

There origin and AT were the same thing. 

 

 

 

[Nafsmar]

On 7/28/2020 at 5:26 PM, cohRock said:

Most of you probably already know this, but sometimes I'm slow.  It occurred to me over the weekend, wondering if I should choose Natural Origin for a new Character.  Superman is a natural hero!  He's not magic, he's not science, he's not a mutant, and his powers don't derive from technology.  He just happens to not be from around here, and as a consequence gets a lot more out of the Sun than the rest of us.  Conclusion: I made an inner-Earther with "powers" a Natural hero.

Last time I checked Superman came to earth in a SPACESHIP. Spaceships generally involve SCIENCE. Therefore I see him as SCIENCE ORIGIN. No ship no Superman.

 

On a side note almost all my characters are science origin as well because most of them have had something happen to give them said powers. Don't blame me. Instead blame Stan Lee for creating the greatest superhero ever, Spider-man. There I said it you happy?

[cranebump]

I’ve often gone with Tech Origin just because the Tech shop in Talos is close to the tram/ouro/WW and I plan to slot SOs there at lvl25:-)

[Twisted Toon]

8 hours ago, Sakura Tenshi said:

You're right about natural origin not necessarily meaning 'someone who trained to achieve their powers', but Superman's origin is science since kryptonians are not inherently capable of those feats in their natural habitat (a planet with a red sun, also possibly higher gravity since he's a John Cart of Mars expy), it's being on earth that made Superman special. (which, from a narrative standpoint you could read as: it's earth that gives superman his strength to defend it. He's an outsider who was charged with the earth's protection)

Except for the fact that all Kryptonians gain the same abilities when they're on planet earth. That is an inherent ability of the species.

Just because they lack the light of a yellow sun on their home world is no fault of theirs.

 

You put us puny humans on a planet with half the gravitational pull and we'd all have Super Strength and be able to leap enormous distances.

We wouldn't, suddenly, be Scienced (or Teched, Magiced, or Mutationed) into powers.

We'd be Natural Humans who could leap tall building in a single bound.

[Bastille Boy]

Natural origin works for so many things!

 

He was always picked last for kickball, so now he has empathy for the underdog? Natural.

She studied opera, and now her voice can shatter arachnobots as well as glass? Natural.

They learned to inflict psychic harm by watching their dysfunctional parents in action? Natural.

 

But if they learned to control other people mentally by getting a Ph.D. in psychology, that power has a Science origin. Social science is science!

[Luminara]

23 hours ago, Haijinx said:

And Supes is so much better than Solar panels he can convert 100% of the Sun's Power for his own personal use.

 

No, he can't.  Some of the photons are reflected.  If they weren't, he'd be a blank space.  Not invisible, but a spot of absolute blackness, like Vantablack.  As we can see his rather colorful undies and bright blue eyes, that isn't the case.  So his ability to absorb visible light is limited.  Some, but not all, or even most.

 

He also can't absorb infrared radiation,, and more likely reflects it, else he'd be a walking polar vortex, leaving a trail of frozen corpses in his wake.  And he's unharmed by combustion, of any kind, further indicating an inability to absorb IR.

 

UV, he might absorb completely.  But not x-rays, as evidenced by his ability to see in that band of the EM spectrum (he couldn't see and absorb x-rays, it would be one or the other).  He likely absorbs gamma radiation far more efficiently than humans, but lacks any ability to convert it to useful energy, given the portrayals of him being weakened by nuclear weapons (The Dark Knight Returns) and over-absorption of solar radiation (All-Star Superman, most probably cause of death would be too much gamma and UV, not photons).  And radio waves... everywhere he went, every radio, television and cell phone would lose signal if his physiology reacted differently to them than ours does.  That doesn't occur in any comic, cartoon or film, so we can assume he's "radio wave normal".

 

Just over half of the solar radiation reaching the surface of the planet is IR, so we've already cut Superman's conversion rate by that much (45-48%, in fact).  And as he can't absorb all visible light, his conversion rate would drop further, making him only slightly more efficient than current prototype photovoltaic cells (which can convert 47% of visible light to electricity).  He also can't "charge up" in moonlight, which is merely reflected sunlight, so he either has a minimum amount of solar radiation necessary to enable conversion, or he's more reliant on UV than photons (nearly all of the solar radiation reaching the surface of the Earth is IR, visible and UV), of which there's almost none in moonlight.

[Haijinx]

2 minutes ago, Luminara said:

 

No, he can't.  Some of the photons are reflected.  If they weren't, he'd be a blank space.  Not invisible, but a spot of absolute blackness, like Vantablack.  As we can see his rather colorful undies and bright blue eyes, that isn't the case.  So his ability to absorb visible light is limited.  Some, but not all, or even most.

 

He also can't absorb infrared radiation,, and more likely reflects it, else he'd be a walking polar vortex, leaving a trail of frozen corpses in his wake.  And he's unharmed by combustion, of any kind, further indicating an inability to absorb IR.

 

UV, he might absorb completely.  But not x-rays, as evidenced by his ability to see in that band of the EM spectrum (he couldn't see and absorb x-rays, it would be one or the other).  He likely absorbs gamma radiation far more efficiently than humans, but lacks any ability to convert it to useful energy, given the portrayals of him being weakened by nuclear weapons (The Dark Knight Returns) and over-absorption of solar radiation (All-Star Superman, most probably cause of death would be too much gamma and UV, not photons).  And radio waves... everywhere he went, every radio, television and cell phone would lose signal if his physiology reacted differently to them than ours does.  That doesn't occur in any comic, cartoon or film, so we can assume he's "radio wave normal".

 

Just over half of the solar radiation reaching the surface of the planet is IR, so we've already cut Superman's conversion rate by that much (45-48%, in fact).  And as he can't absorb all visible light, his conversion rate would drop further, making him only slightly more efficient than current prototype photovoltaic cells (which can convert 47% of visible light to electricity).  He also can't "charge up" in moonlight, which is merely reflected sunlight, so he either has a minimum amount of solar radiation necessary to enable conversion, or he's more reliant on UV than photons (nearly all of the solar radiation reaching the surface of the Earth is IR, visible and UV), of which there's almost none in moonlight.

Supes is really running into a Power problem.  That is a good point about the light.  Even 20ish% Solar Cells look pretty much black.  He is going to look more like Sunspot than his traditional Blue and Red depiction.   On the plus side this removes the special costume requirement.  Since if he is pitch black, he can probably pull off just being naked after all. 

 

The Solution for the decreased efficiency of course is to Increase the Area of the Solar Field.  Which is obviously accomplished by eating thousands of Big Macs.  

 

 

[Haijinx]

18 minutes ago, Luminara said:

Just over half of the solar radiation reaching the surface of the planet is IR, so we've already cut Superman's conversion rate by that much (45-48%, in fact).  And as he can't absorb all visible light, his conversion rate would drop further, making him only slightly more efficient than current prototype photovoltaic cells (which can convert 47% of visible light to electricity).  He also can't "charge up" in moonlight, which is merely reflected sunlight, so he either has a minimum amount of solar radiation necessary to enable conversion, or he's more reliant on UV than photons (nearly all of the solar radiation reaching the surface of the Earth is IR, visible and UV), of which there's almost none in moonlight.

The problem with the UV thing is there isn't enough Energy there.  Too much is absorbed by the Ozone Layer.   Maybe we can save Supes by bringing back CFCs in a big way.  Well Big Hair 10 Cans of Aqua Net Way.   Don't forget this version ...

 

 

Also as you mentioned and the great Tony Iommi and Dio told us in Heaven and Hell .. The Moon is just the Sun at night .. Therefore maybe Supes is like a Battery he has to store it all from the daytime.    

 

Edited July 30, 2020 by Haijinx

[DoctorDitko]

We actually don't know about his ability to charge from indirect sunlight. He travels in space (in at least some continuities) and compared to moonlight, distant starlight is a pittance.

 

Yeah, him and Nightwing! What was up with the Mullet Age of comics?

Also, at the risk of jinxing it, +! for no one mentioning Kleenex!

Edited July 30, 2020 by DoctorDitko

[Haijinx]

3 minutes ago, DoctorDitko said:

We actually don't know about his ability to charge from indirect sunlight. He travels in space (in at least some continuities) and compared to moonlight, distant starlight is a pittance.

 

Yeah, him and Nightwing! What was up with the Mullet Age of comics?

Also, at the risk of jinxing it, +! for no one mentioning Kleenex!

Its not so much The Space Flying thing its the available Energy thing.  The Sun puts out a huge amount of Energy.  Enough actually that if Supes could actually use it somehow given the constraints of Human shaped Physiology and Physics etc,  maybe he could be Super and stuff. 

 

Something like 170 Pettawatts of Sunlight hits the Earth. 

 

But How does he collect it?  There's the problem.  He isn't Earth Sized.  And making him Earth Sized just adds more problems.  You think your arms feel heavy after a set of 25 pound curls NOW?  Wait till your wrists weigh a billion tons each. 

 

A human sized box of Sun Power just isn't very much really.  Actually its pretty pitiful.   

 

A lot of people want Solar Powered Golf Carts.  But there is no way to power a traditional Golf Cart with only the available area on its roof.  That's why Solar Race Cars look like Airplane Wings and have the Density of Styrofoam.  You could maybe power the radio of a Gasoline Powered Golf Cart when the motor is off or something .. 

 

This isn't just a Supes problem.  He is just the biggest offender given he is so Powerful.  Ironman used to be Solar Powered for a while.  Which was just as ridiculous.  Well equally impossible but a fraction in scale of Impossible.   

 

 

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

There is an idea I know some toss around, and Im not an expert so it at best sounds like half decent sci fi babble, but the idea some bring forth, in part supported by that weird superman red/blue pure energy form era, that since we all as all that is, at the smallest level are just energy, superman is just more compact, Hence his super density rendering him near invulnerable.

 

It should also be pointed out in the Dark Knight Returns, one could put it to the sheer explosive force, and the sun being so blotted out by the nuclear cloud and winter that followed it, that is why he was so badly injured.

 

Likewise all star superman may as well be unique to a single timeline, as in some like that in kingdom come, he eventually gains true complete immunity to all things even kryptonite from the level of saturation he has achieved. We see in some he ages, and some he does not, so clearly there must be some further environmental variation between the infinite earths that make this specific and very meaningful change in his nature. In some he is all but eternal lasting as long as a yellow sun does shine, and in others he wont live much longer than  a normal human.

[DoctorDitko]

Solar-powered golf carts are fine, you just have them sit in the sun for 2 or 3 days between each 18-hole gig! Supes could do something similar. After all, we only see his interesting days in the comics.

 

I've always thought the only way Iron Man could work was if he was 100% robotic, a drone piloted by Tony who is safely back in his base in a VR rig.

 

I know, screws with the whole Risk/Reward Hero dynamic, but c'mon! Where's the fuel for those jet boots? Where do those rockets get stored?

Edited July 30, 2020 by DoctorDitko

[Haijinx]

35 minutes ago, DoctorDitko said:

Solar-powered golf carts are fine, you just have them sit in the sun for 2 or 3 days between each 18-hole gig! Supes could do something similar. After all, we only see his interesting days in the comics.

 

200 or 300 years of Sun absorbing on the beach between Comic Arcs I guess.  Depending on if he was going to be flying or not. 

 

When we did the math for the Carts it was about a week charging for an hour of driving.  I used to design Solar Panels.  Electric Golf Carts are real Energy Pigs.  This could maybe work for you if you lived on a course and had your own cart, but was useless for Club Carts. 

 

Maybe we could just plug Supes in for faster charging. 

 

[DoctorDitko]

Wow! I bow to your expertise.

Kudos for designing solar panels, that's a very heroic thing to do!

I guess you need seven times more carts, then! Or reflectors to focus more than their fair share of sunlight while they charge?

 

Hmm. Maybe Supes spends a lot of time hanging out on Mercury to get the benefit of the inverse square law?

(That would mean the golf carts weren't under-engineered, just badly located!)

Move your golf course to Mercury!

(Real estate is very cheap there, it's the commute that kills you!)

 

 

[Nemeroff]

On 7/29/2020 at 1:54 AM, Heraclea said:

No: any character whose attacks involve a sword, a mace, a staff, a bow, or a gun is Technology origin.  All of them are using tools. and tools are technology. 

Not to be difficult but what about Thundercats' Lion-O?

He uses a sword but said sword is Magical; changes size, etc...

 

EDIT: Personally I glance at the different Origin-titles to influence my origin.

Edited July 30, 2020 by Nemeroff

[srmalloy]

On 7/28/2020 at 5:35 PM, Twisted Toon said:

I had a couple of "hybrid" origin characters on live.

 

Technically, Hyper Dervish was a Magic origin Grav/Energy Dominator.

One of my characters, Machinator Magicus, has a similar hybrid background, being from an alternate dimension that went the direction of Poul Anderson's Operation Chaos novels, where magic was the technology. When he got dumped into Paragon City, he was wearing a suit intended for protection in the dimension he was supposed to be going to, and it failed colorfully on arrival due to magic working somewhat differently in this dimension, forcing him to relearn how magic worked and rebuild his gear -- essentially a magic-based technology character (and also explaining advancement in level, as he learned how to make spells and enchantments he already knew work in this dimension).