Global Enhancement for Knockback to Knockdown Conversion?

[MunkiLord]

11 hours ago, Noyjitat said:

I also don't see gamers in other games crying nerf as often I see here either... also people bitched about speedboost and now you have the option to opt-out of that. So if I have to tolerate you moving slowly in missions because you don't like the speed portion of speedboost then you can tolerate our request.

Other players not moving faster because they turn off speed boost is something people actually notice and think about? 

[arcane]

1 hour ago, roleki said:

People talk about power creep, why are we stopping here?  Why is KB the line in the sand?  They gave nukes to everyone, AoE heals to everyone, everyone can buy as much -Regen they want at P2W, people can get heal badges off temporary powers, but god forbid they grant players the choice of mitigating KB per character instead of per-power.

 

We can't have Storm/Energy defenders running around being USEFUL!  You greedy son of a bitch, you find another slot for Phantasm in that build if you don't want it knocking things all over the place.  Learn to play!  Power creep!  Argument for argument's sake!

 

Christ.  Nobody's saying remove KB from the game, just looking for a more elegant way to mitigate it if they choose to do so.  

Nobody here is against storm/energy being useful. Nobody here is against an elegant KB mitigation solution. A handful of us think the aforementioned power creep examples were also bad ideas.

 

I for one just find a handful of sudden acceleration IO’s to be an imminently reasonable price for converting an annoying erratic type of mitigation to a tightly controlled one.

 

I would recommend you try placing the KB to KD IO’s in your build *before anything else*. I’ve done that on my 3 storms and 1 kheldian and have zero complaints. It sounds like you’re struggling to add these IO’s to an already tight build at the last minute rather than building around them to begin with. If you’re having trouble coming up with a build that feels useful there are obviously tons of people here that would love to share their’s.

 

PS: feeling a slight impulse to go ahead and make a storm/energy. Could the additional investment of procs in energy as opposed to just storm really change my mind here?

[Noyjitat]

1 hour ago, MunkiLord said:

Other players not moving faster because they turn off speed boost is something people actually notice and think about? 

I do think about it but i don't kick people for it just as people claim if this change goes thru people will be kicked for not using it; which isn't likely to occur...

Edited August 2, 2020 by Noyjitat

[EmmySky]

I played a storm/energy defender on live.  It will most certainly teach you to be careful about attack vectors and placement.  There were no magic KB to KD conversions back when I was playing that character and she (I) became very good at what she did.  

 

Now there is a magic conversion tool.  I don't NEED it, I know how to position my character and use the KB to the benefit of my teammates.  I DO use it in some builds because I am lazy and dont want to have to think about it, or the teams move so fast I dont have time to think about it, or my foe is dead after I attack so it doesnt matter where he lands.

 

I like the concept of a global way to make the magic conversion, but I would want a little more fine control.  Some powers I like to keep the KB because it is a good thing.  I think asking for or expecting a checklist so I can keep KB in torrent but convert blast is way more that the devs would be willing or able to do so it most likely would be an 'all or nothing' thing if it were implemented.  

 

I am not a fan of 'all or nothing' but I am also not a fan of the current slot tax method where I miss a 6 pc bonus if I  use the converter.  I dont know if there will ever be a middle ground that is actually a feasible solution because I am not the one futzing with the code. 

[Greycat]

1 hour ago, roleki said:

Ah yes, the old "learn 2 play!" chestnut, advertised as not and delivered in not so few of words. 

So you decided to completely miss the point and dip into hyperbole to be dismissive. Good to know.

 

Yes, it like many things is a skill that takes a bit of practice and awareness. Oh my god, how terrible to point out that's the case... like multiple other things in the game, and in life itself.

 

And yes, for this (or worse, for a Null option,) you might as *well* be removing it from the game. *Especially* for a Null option. After all, "it's only one slot" or "it's only one trip to Pocket D" for people to insist you turn off the option (and completely change how *you* play, *your* strategies, etc.) for those vocal anti-knockback, "I don't want to know if you actually know what you're doing" folks to insist on. We might as well go back to the other suggestion made at some point of having the leader decide if knockback works on the team or not.

 

Why do I feel this is an actual possibility and not a stretch? Because with several anti-KB IOs (and the phrasing already in that people feel they "have to" slot it,) after playing characters effectively with KB since *issue 3,* I sadly can no longer say "I haven't been asked to do anything about knockback." I've had two scenarios -

 

ITF, me on a Warshade. Leader expresses concern about KB and suggests getting IOs. I decline, because, well, I already have a build *and know how to use my KB.* During play, the leader sees... wait, look, not only am I gathering spread out groups *together* by KBing, but kbing them vertically and using other, effective KB strategies. Leader actually complements how it helped.

 

iTrial. Group coordinates via voice. I'm on a warshade. Organizer is prompted by others in their SG "omg, a warshade, so much knockback the trial will fail!" Instead of asking about it, or suggesting (say) "Hey, could you use dwarf in this section," or *seeing what I could do* (mind you, I'd played frequently with this group prior on a different character) it was "Hey, go get a bunch of KD-KD IOs." Between that (fairly rude, frankly - "go screw over what you have going on, build-wise") and the comments, I said no and left. Which just made me wonder how many OTHERS they'd treated that way and made to feel inferior or unwanted because of a powerset, which is not only unneeded in this game but rude. Haven't bothered with their other events, either, given the attitude on display at that point.

 

Now, imagine needing "just one IO" or not even needing a slot and how much pushier these people might get. On TOP of people not bothering to work out how to use their KB, because IOs/Null option. Yes, with these single (or no) slot solutions, you might as *well* remove it from the game - with nothing to compensate in return. Other than "Slot this and you may have the pleasure - no, the honor - of teaming with me, peasant."

 

And yes, that's *exactly* the attitude shown ("AOE Melee > all, everything should just bow down and play for the sake of gathering things for the AOE melee!") in quite a number of posts.

 

So, yes, I'd see a single-slot IO (or Null option) as nothing but a big middle finger to those of us who enjoy and know how to play with KB, while hampering those who could *learn* it and making them feel like second-class (at *best*) citizens and emboldening those who want to tell others how to play "or else."

[EmmySky]

I gotta second @Greycat on this, I have seen this attitude at play in the game, once directed at me on my PB who does not use the converter in her ST attack, because the complainer failed to wait and see that the foe was dead way over there where he fell.  I have seen it many times directed at other players and it makes me watch how they are doing.  The number of people who use gale after the tank gathers up the clump astounds me, so I can also affirm it is, at least in some cases, a valid complaint/concern.  

 

I don't want us to go the way of 'only these perfect builds are allowed to play' but some people really do need to learn to play, and some people really do need to stop being control freaks and dictating how people are allowed to play.  I have recently learned to use the star system in the game *add note* and it helps me tell the difference between who I want to team with and who I need to absolutely (under no circumstances ever) not team with.  Maybe less bitching if we all try that?  And my star system is usually very secret, I won't announce "Joe Blow has 1 star, I saw him be an asshat about X and I won't team with him", I just quietly leave the team and go about my business.  Much less stress during my free time fun this way 😄

[FoulVileTerror]

 . . . ok, this is going to be rude of me, and I apologize, but I can't help it.

 

Someone needs to make "Joe Blow" as Storm Defender, like . . . Right.  Now.

[Twisted Toon]

15 hours ago, Noyjitat said:

I also don't see gamers in other games crying nerf as often I see here either... also people bitched about speedboost and now you have the option to opt-out of that. So if I have to tolerate you moving slowly in missions because you don't like the speed portion of speedboost then you can tolerate our request.

The problem I see with comparing the speedboost option and the KB removal option is that the speedbooster can still toss out speedboosts to the rest of the party that wants them.

If you* dislike KB, and some people despise it, no matter how much to disable your* KB, it won't affect someone else's KB.

So, you* will still be annoyed at the KB being done by other people.

And people with KB will still be kicked form teams (happened to me) and berated for having the audacity to use that evil mechanic in their game. (also happened to me)

 

* This is not directed specifically at Noyjitat, but, to the audience in general.

[ForeverLaxx]

There's never a shortage of players who seem to only exist to tell you that you're doing things wrong or that you need to accommodate their desires for everything. I like that the enhancement exists, but as an old Energy/Energy/Force Blaster main from live, where the enhancement never existed, having it here has just made the aforementioned people add something to their list. The very enhancement's existence says, at least to them, that you're "expected" to use it and this shows a level of arrogance and narcissism that didn't exist on Live previously.

 

In one of my previous posts, I stated I only use the enhancement on AoE knocback powers. If people want to get mad that the target I'm focusing gets knocked back while I'm focusing it, then let 'em. If they get upset, I'll point out that I defeated the enemy just fine. If I get kicked from a team (or leave) because  one or two melee think everything has to be trapped in their deathball 100% of the time, it doesn't bother me anyway.

 

Thankfully for these people I'm primarily a solo player, I guess. The teams I join are basically just TFs and people aren't willing to "rock the boat", so to speak, on a TF that doesn't have multiple teams advertising.

[Onemantankwall]

Kicked my first kb spammer yesterday running maria arc, didnt have a taunt so the fire/rad brute and fire/fire Sent was tanking through shear aoe argo. Stormy found it helpful to toggle Hurricane in the dead center of the mobs before argo was established sending 11+ mobs 11+ different directions out of melee/nuke range because "mah hurricane causes -to hit" killing squishies who now have the argo. Didnt feel bad about it at all mishs ran smoothly after ejection. They can go rudely kb spam their own mishs. Play how you want till it effects others then something gotta give.

 

+1 to global kb-kd enhance

Edited August 3, 2020 by Onemantankwall

[ForeverLaxx]

10 minutes ago, Onemantankwall said:

Hurricane

Won't fix your issue, then. Hurricane has a repel effect in addition to the knockback which can't be reduced.

[Greycat]

Also an example of the issue being the *player,* not the power.  If they were being malicious, well, there's no enhancement for "don't be a ****." If they weren't, then they need to learn how to use the power properly.

 

Edit: Hmm. What would that enhancement be. Hedup's Proctological Extraction?  🙂

Edited August 3, 2020 by Greycat
Being a smartalec

[Twisted Toon]

9 hours ago, Onemantankwall said:

Kicked my first kb spammer yesterday running maria arc, didnt have a taunt so the fire/rad brute and fire/fire Sent was tanking through shear aoe argo. Stormy found it helpful to toggle Hurricane in the dead center of the mobs before argo was established sending 11+ mobs 11+ different directions out of melee/nuke range because "mah hurricane causes -to hit" killing squishies who now have the argo. Didnt feel bad about it at all mishs ran smoothly after ejection. They can go rudely kb spam their own mishs. Play how you want till it effects others then something gotta give.

 

+1 to global kb-kd enhance

I'm curious, did you ask them to stop and they didn't, or did you just kick them for a single offense?

[Noyjitat]

21 hours ago, Twisted Toon said:

The problem I see with comparing the speedboost option and the KB removal option is that the speedbooster can still toss out speedboosts to the rest of the party that wants them.

If you* dislike KB, and some people despise it, no matter how much to disable your* KB, it won't affect someone else's KB.

So, you* will still be annoyed at the KB being done by other people.

And people with KB will still be kicked form teams (happened to me) and berated for having the audacity to use that evil mechanic in their game. (also happened to me)

 

* This is not directed specifically at Noyjitat, but, to the audience in general.

I don't what the people are like on your server but unless you're being a total dipshit asshole troll with your knockback you shouldn't be getting kicked. And if you are getting kicked those are the sort of people that probably are not worth your time to begin with.

[Onemantankwall]

2 hours ago, Twisted Toon said:

I'm curious, did you ask them to stop and they didn't, or did you just kick them for a single offense?

Asked twice and explained the issue before my patience ran out "but mah -to hit kb!!!!"

[Razor Cure]

On 8/1/2020 at 6:26 AM, arcaneholocaust said:

Anecdotes of a handful of forum users obviously =/= a majority or anywhere close.

Just a suggestion that may have come up already. As people are saying, most people dont use the forums, and those that do, often post in similar threads (I know I have).

What about an ingame Poll? Every week, pops up when you log in. Pick A,B,C,D, regarding issue X. The poll is NOT closeable until you submit it.

Might not be perfect (alts logging to vote etc) but it might give a better (rough) idea of the 'majority' of players than (mostly) the same forum users.

[FoulVileTerror]

Something like https://forums.homecomingservers.com/topic/9265-new-feature-in-game-polling-system/ @Razor Cure?

[Dazl]

As I've said I support the global proc, but I wonder how much it would really be used? Not every build would want it since it would effect all KB powers and as it's been pointed out, you may want to keep the KB in some powers. It just might not be as widely used as some people think.

[Twisted Toon]

7 hours ago, Noyjitat said:

I don't what the people are like on your server but unless you're being a total dipshit asshole troll with your knockback you shouldn't be getting kicked. And if you are getting kicked those are the sort of people that probably are not worth your time to begin with.

I agree completely.

But, some people are rather...intense in regards to their disliking of KB and will go to great lengths to let offending parties know about it.

That is, however, one of the reasons that I  tend to solo most of the time, or team with specific people that I know.

Rarely, will I join a pug.

And since there are no mandatory team sizes for TFs any more, my small group of friends can do them all together without hassle from anti-KBers. 🙂

Not that all of my characters have KB. (unless you count having the Nemesis Staff in my list of powers available)

[MTeague]

3 hours ago, Razor Cure said:

The poll is NOT closeable until you submit it.

That's Tar-And-Feather worthy design right there.

If someone doens't want to answer they won't answer. 

If you force an answer out of them, they're not going to consider your question and give you good data.

They're going to click the first choice, no matter what it is, just to get past this stupid popup that they want to close.

 

So if you want a forced-answer-poll?

then you should make sure the answers you HATE the most and sincerely wish are NOT TRUE, are the first answer.

Just so that answer can be weighted extra hard, as punishment for creating such a bad forced-answer popup.

[Greycat]

1 hour ago, MTeague said:

That's Tar-And-Feather worthy design right there.

If someone doens't want to answer they won't answer. 

If you force an answer out of them, they're not going to consider your question and give you good data.

They're going to click the first choice, no matter what it is, just to get past this stupid popup that they want to close.

 

Not to mention... development is not and should not be a democracy.

[Razor Cure]

2 hours ago, MTeague said:

hat's Tar-And-Feather worthy design right there.

If someone doens't want to answer they won't answer. 

Why? How about option D is just 'I decline to answer.' That at least gives an idea of people who dont care.

 

2 hours ago, MTeague said:

So if you want a forced-answer-poll?

then you should make sure the answers you HATE the most and sincerely wish are NOT TRUE, are the first answer.

Just so that answer can be weighted extra hard, as punishment for creating such a bad forced-answer popup.

Because what we seem to HAVE atm is so much better? The same group of forums people, responding to the same points that less frequent forum users are making? When half of every thread descends in meme posting, people quoting those memes, /Jranger posts, 'don't tell me how to play' replies or the utterly useless 'it must be monday because nerf XXX' posts.

Seems like a great way to get a tiny amount of valid, thought out responses too a suggestion. And a lot of bullshit.

 

1 hour ago, Greycat said:

Not to mention... development is not and should not be a democracy.

Nor should it be controlled by a handful (in comparison to the total) of people who are willing to yell on the forums.

Edited August 4, 2020 by Razor Cure

[Six-Six]

I like KB.

Can we have an IO proc that doubles or triples KB?

That comment about nothing heroic about KB-ing your enemies, you've obviously never seen Supes bring it to Darkseid or Black Adam.

[Yomo Kimyata]

Ugh.

 

Knockback is a good mitigation tool, but knockdown is a better one.  That’s why there is a trade off insofar as a slot used up if you want to translate it.  Fair enough.

 

A global Proc?  Too powerful, unless it takes away a slot from every kB power.

[Neogumbercules]

I think people who are shitty to other players about kb are toxic idiots and need to chill out, unless the kb'er is intentionally trolling or legitimately playing horribly by causing wipes and refusing to listen to good advice. 

 

I think KB can be controlled and used for good by good players. But this argument isn't even about that. Yes you can play like trash and make KB awful, or you can play well and make it okay. That's not the point. Allowing a global KB reducer would not change that at all.

 

Use it or don't use it, no one cares. I obviously can't provide empirical data to back up this claim but it's my observation that this has been one of the most requested features of any server, and if my memory hasn't failed me yet, even back on Live it was one of the most requested features. The live devs even introduced the Overwhelming Force set with the unique KB2KD IO.

 

Sudden Acceleration is good but it does take up a slot, and I'm just not convinced that very minor balance concerns should get in the way of anyone having a good time.

 

I'm not saying we turn on God-mode for everyone, but I'm not seeing how giving players this option will somehow have some huge negative impact on the game as it stands right now. I mean the meta of this game is about building a character that is capable of dodging 95% of almost every attack in the game that any enemy is capable of using against you. Letting players toggle on a global KB2KD is peanuts compared to that. 

 

One of my favorite characters right now is my Energy/Devices blaster and you bet I have those SA procs in Energy Torrent and Explosive Blast. It's extremely useful because it provides great crowd control and makes it easy to follow up with additional AoEs. I also use Bonfire with SA. It's a great combo and basically turns me into a kind of Blast-troller.

 

Call it selfish but I'd love to replace those SA procs with damage procs, or better yet, force feedback chance for +Recharge. I could just do that, and learn to love the KB but I just don't want to. Call it lazy, or whatever you want, but I don't want to deal with KB and I don't see how giving me the option to turn it off for myself globally would hurt anyone.