Weekly Discussion 63: Ice Armor

[BurtHutt]

I've stayed away from ice shield set since Live. I cannot stand the look/graphics. Even on the Epic power pool set, the ice looks awful on my blaster. It is also why I don't have any stone armour toons. The look is not for me.

[Troo]

hmmm some of the comments just don't seem to align with "elec/ice was one of the most fun toons i ever had." (maybe that's just a really nice pairing)

 

Ice is an excellent typed defensive set for regular content.

 

Very late game ...

It was not really built to deal with Incarnate content. Icy Bastion helps and because it is so easy to cap S/L/E/N, the Psi hole can then be somewhat addressed through IOs.

I do wish it provided a little more to some other resist rather than blowing past the cold cap so quickly.

 

Hoarfrost is not a long recharge heal.. really it's a HP boost that can be perma'd. (This may be a weakness in the set, similar to other Def based sets not having a heal) Slow resists & 40%+ DDR..

 

On a stalker it seems to work really well & on a unicorn Ice/Axe tanker it does excellent.. until.. it doesn't

 

By the way, Icicles can be made nearly invisible using the colors provided in the costume creator.

Edited August 12, 2020 by Troo

[Bill Z Bubba]

30 minutes ago, Troo said:

Ice is an excellent typed defensive set for regular content.

Where "regular content" translates to "base difficulty."

 

/ducks

//gets hit anyway due to lack of DDR

[Troo]

Yes, I totally caveat-ed it to regular content.

 

How the two below align is a bit of mystery. Is it toggle dropping that gets Ice in trouble or DDR? My experience has been #3 "oh shit psi hurt"

#1 "Cascading Defense Failure

Sets that are prone to CDF are: Ice Armor, Shield Defense, Energy Aura, Ninjitsu, and all of the Soldiers of Arachnos. Super Reflexes used to be the poster child for CDF, but it now benefits from large amounts of Defense Debuff Resistance."

 

#2 Tanker

• Ice Armor is at 50%+ DDR

 

sample defense debuff resistance examples:

Spoiler

 

Scrappers

• Super Reflexes has 60%+ DDR
• Energy Aura is at 50%+ DDR
• Invulnerability is at 50%+ DDR
• Ice Armor is at 40%+ DDR
• Ninjitsu is at 30%+ DDR
• Bio Armor is at 0% DDR
• Dark Armor is at 0% DDR
• Electric Armor is at 0% DDR
• Fiery Aura is at 0% DDR

Tanker

• Ice Armor is at 50%+ DDR

Brute

• Ice Armor is at 40%+ DDR

 

 

Def vs Def+DDR

Spoiler

 

 

Edited August 12, 2020 by Troo
tried to clean up, made mess

[Bill Z Bubba]

36 minutes ago, Troo said:

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but some is better than none.

Of course that's true. Some slows the cascading failure. None does not. The question is whether the other mitigation provided by Ice Armor is ENOUGH to counter the failures. My argument is that it absolutely does not and therefore Ice needs a buff to be remoteLY worthwhile outside of concept.

Edited August 12, 2020 by Bill Z Bubba

[kiramon]

2 hours ago, Troo said:

hmmm some of the comments just don't seem to align with "elec/ice was one of the most fun toons i ever had." (maybe that's just a really nice pairing)

 

Ice is an excellent typed defensive set for regular content.

 

Very late game ...

It was not really built to deal with Incarnate content. Icy Bastion helps and because it is so easy to cap S/L/E/N, the Psi hole can then be somewhat addressed through IOs.

I do wish it provided a little more to some other resist rather than blowing past the cold cap so quickly.

 

Hoarfrost is not a long recharge heal.. really it's a HP boost that can be perma'd. (This may be a weakness in the set, similar to other Def based sets not having a heal) Slow resists & 40%+ DDR..

 

On a stalker it seems to work really well & on a unicorn Ice/Axe tanker it does excellent.. until.. it doesn't

 

By the way, Icicles can be made nearly invisible using the colors provided in the costume creator.

 

I have an Elec/Ice Stalker. It's great. No issues. But it's noticeably weaker than my /rad, /bio and /elec. lol 

[Heraclea]

Well, the thread has at least inspired me to roll an Ice/Ice tanker.  Got her to level 12 running DFBs, will try on a TF.

 

My initial impressions are:

 

1./  The set is not the graphics disaster that I feared.  With dark colors for the powerset and Minimal FX chosen, the various armors are almost invisible.   Probably helps that I also chose most of the Spectrum costume pieces, all but the head, and made everything a very pale cyan, with one of the Imperial breastplates and metallic skirts. 

 

2./ The set is VERY toggle heavy,   As I typically do with baby tankers, the only toggle I run before 22 is the mez protection.  Apart from that the only primary powers I have at 23 are the mez protection and a passive power.   I generally find that toggles and damage auras don't repay their endurance costs at those levels.

 

3./ The values of the defensive powers I do have look quite inadequate, and

 

4./ I did in fact take Taunt. 

 

5./ The self heal is good out of the box but takes WAY too long to recharge.

 

We'll see how the character fares taunting on a Posi 1 and 2 in the near future. 

[carroto]

I've only played it on a Stalker on HC.  Tried it on a Tanker way back when but I'm not sure how well I remember it.  I like the set and the variety of tools it has.  However it has the same problem all the typed defense sets have.  A complete lack of protection from psi damage, and minimal protection from toxic.  If those were truly exotic damage types that would be one thing, but they are abundant in a fair amount of late-game content.  I don't care for being naked to a lot of incoming damage unless significant build compromises are made to plug those holes.

 

Ice Armor compounds this problem other typed defense sets have by adding a fire hole as well.  So it ends up being vulnerable to a lot of damage in a lot of situations.  I'm not sure if the other tools are supposed to make up for those gaps, but they don't really.  I'm sure there's a way to calculate overall mitigation values for each power and sum them up so that the set appears to be well balanced on paper.  Hell, maybe it is.  Probably some people enjoy sets that run hot and cold in that way.  It's just strange to have to rely mostly on inspirations for protection in some situations on a melee character as if I were playing a squishy.  Again, if those situations were rare I could appreciate it, but they're not.

 

That said, I like that it slows down enemies, providing some mitigation to the entire team and not just myself.  The T9 for Stalkers and Scrappers is amazing and really what makes the set have any survivability when facing its weaknesses (at least there's the regen).  If I could get that on Brutes or Tankers I'd probably roll one.

 

Overall I like the set.  I think it's well designed.  The main problem (for me) is the broader design decision that typed defenses should be completely vulnerable to a common damage type.

[Eldyem]

Ice Armor just kind of feels dated as a set; Wet Ice generally sucking, Icicles being Lethal and not Cold or Cold/Lethal, Hoarfrost being a Dull Pain clone but on a defensive set so way less useful than it is for Invuln, unnecessary holes to two damage types, etc.

 

It has some really good aspects - Chilling Embrace is massively underrated for the mitigation it provides (and for the whole team!), Energy Absorption is very good for sustain on a set that doesn't have other avenues of sustain, unlike Energy Aura, and Icy Bastion should be considered the gold standard should T9s ever get reworked.

 

My personal suggestion to push Ice Armor into being closer to other sets is to give Wet Ice some Psionic Defense (doesn't need to be a lot) and let me slot sets into it, and maybe add a little Cold defense to help it really cement a "niche" in... resisting what is probably the rarest damage type? I think the fundamental flaw with Ice Armor is that Fire is so much more common than Cold, which means it has no niche but does have a weakness, which is just unfun. As for the Psi hole, at least Invuln specializes in resisting the two most common damage types and Fiery Aura has a fantastic heal; Ice Armor has nothing to justify leaving that hole in in the present game, at least in my opinion. I'm fine with sets having strengths and weaknesses - I just think those strengths and weaknesses need to be targeted and not "random".

[DSorrow]

I feel like Ice suffers from being a "first generation" layered armor set. It has a bit of many different sources of mitigation, but it doesn't quite stack up to the survivability or offense of newer sets such as WP or Bio. Personally, I think the main culprits of Ice's problems are the following:

• The base Def values for S/L/E/NE seem a bit low, they could use a tiny bump. Also Glacial Armor should be available sooner for Tankers.
• Having three defensive holes (Fire, Toxic, Psi) is a bit much.
• The set's DDR is far too low (for my liking) for a set whose damage mitigation is mostly dependent on Defense. Energy Absorption does allow you to buffer up, but this isn't a very applicable strategy in situations where it can't be saturated (AV fights).
• Hibernate as a T9 is a bummer, Icy Bastion is great.
• For a layered set, I find that the recuperation powers are kind of lacking. Hoarfrost works much better as a +MaxHP tool than heal due to its long recharge, and Hibernate is, well, boring and in my opinion completely antithetical for a Tank. 

I really like how the set does a bit of everything, but at the same time I think it either needs to either improve meaningfully in a select few areas or just do everything a tiny bit better. Some ideas for improving Ice Armor:

• Increase the DDR values.
• Improve the base values for S/L/E/NE Def slightly.
• Shift some Cold Resistance to Fire (for example swap the Cold and Fire Res values in Permafrost).
• Give Energy Absorption a Heal effect that scales based on the number of targets or give Hoarfrost an Absorb Over Time for its duration.
• Hibernate needs a whole rework, personally I'd just change it to give immense amounts of +Heal/+End/+Absorb Over Time while basically capping your Debuff Resistances for 10 seconds. Essentially, you'd be rendered invincible for a short time while regenerating health and shedding debuffs but remaining able to act.

All of this at the same time might be a tad much, but at least some of this would be nice.

[Yomo Kimyata]

I love ice armor.  It's got everything you want in an armor set:  protection, self heal, endurance tools, damage aura, oh shit button  It only has two flaws that I see:

 

1.  Graphics could use some work, but I'll always support new graphics options.

2.  Its component pieces may individually not be each the best in class.  Dark Armor has a better heal, Bio has a better damage aura, etc.

 

As a whole, I think it's great and imo in the top half of armors overall.

[Li_Sensei]

I may be odd, but I like Hibernate as it is.

 

It's a panic button, that requires no additional slotting.  And at that point in a levelling tanker's career, slots are fleeting and valuable.

 

I did throw inf at my Ice/Ice tanker, so my experience is likely not the most commonplace, but I can solo comfortably at +3/x8 on 'normal' enemy groups, but IDF, Arachnos and Carnies will shred me.  Mainly by debuffing the snot out of me, or punching straight through that late game Psi hole.  On a team, it's less of an issue as you can engage 'sack of HP' tanker mode using Hoarfrost and Hibernate, and as Ice/Ice I've got the massive mitigation of Ice Patch and the self heal of Frozen Aura with a proc to patch up scratches until Hoarfrost is recharged in about three interglacial periods...

Edited August 13, 2020 by Li_Sensei
'cos I can't speel gud

[Brutal Justice]

I enjoy ice armor more for its character than its performance.  I play all my toons on generic lvl 25 and 30 IOs, aside from a few global procs picked up at random lvls, until lvl 47 or 50. I think all of the armor sets are doing well but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t have some issues.  

 

I have an IOd ice/km tank, lvl 50 spines/ice scrapper still on basic IOs, and a lvl 30 dB/ice stalker.  Based on an SO build, for tanks, I would probably place it somewhere in the bottom 3 or 4 for durability.  Probably higher for scrappers and stalkers due to icy bastion.  No experience with sentinels.  

 

For a primarily defense only set, with 3 holes, the base defense feels a bit too low.  This combined with low DDR causes rather quick defensive failure.  

 

Chilling embrace helps in long fights against lieutenants and minions... which really doesn’t happen these days.  It is limited in value like this because -recharge functions a lot like -end, it really has little effect until after the mob has gone through its attack cycle. AVs heavily resist the debuffs and with a solo AV you probably need to shut this toggle off for endurance reasons.  

 

Ice armor is extremely endurance heavy.  With 5 endurance heavy toggles you can not function without energy absorption.  Also, with lowish base defense you get sapped fairly easily.  

 

Adjustments I would propose:

 

More DDR, around 60-70% And slightly higher base defense.  With  low numbers in these two you actually get less mileage than you could out of energy absorption because you take -def hits before you can EA in the mob.  Higher DDR makes EA better.  

 

Give chilling embrace a small refreshing absorb shield like the blaster version.  This would allow time for the -recharge to take effect and add some value in an AV fight.  And come on, ice was absorbing before absorption was even a thing!

 

Give Hibernate an instant +res aspect to prevent face planting from attacks that have been made but are yet to land.  I have died lots of times IN hibernate from this very thing. 

 

Even with nothing changed, I still think the set is solid and will continue to enjoy it.  I couldn’t play it with the old graphics but I quite like the min fx settings.  

[Jaguaratron]

Its good

 

Icy Bastions activation animation sucks and is not appropriate for the power type.

[KC4800]

I agree Icy Bastion animation doesn't make sense.

 

I have an Ice Armor tank and an Ice Armor stalker. 

 

I typically solo the tank at +3/8, the stalker at +2/2.

 

The stalker dies way more.  It just feels like something breaks, and he's soon overwhelmed.  Once the defense from Energy Absorption lowers, he becomes very vulnerable until I can fire off EA again. Icy Bastion is not always available when you need it, so you save it for key moments in the mission.

[Eldyem]

On 8/12/2020 at 12:21 PM, Troo said:

Hoarfrost is not a long recharge heal.. really it's a HP boost that can be perma'd.

It's kind of both; the heal (especially fully slotted out) is obscenely massive and outdoes the HP increase. It's just that at high recharge you never want the max HP increase to drop if you can help it.

 

On 8/14/2020 at 8:22 PM, Jaguaratron said:

Its good

 

Icy Bastions activation animation sucks and is not appropriate for the power type.

Isn't it only about a second? It's the only emergency T9 where I don't feel like my character is posing for a couple seconds when they're about to die.

Now Shadow Meld, on the other hand...

[Omega-202]

18 hours ago, Eldyem said:

It's kind of both; the heal (especially fully slotted out) is obscenely massive and outdoes the HP increase. It's just that at high recharge you never want the max HP increase to drop if you can help it.

I think it really depends on what you're facing.  If you're doing fine without Hoarfrost/Dull Pain/Serum etc., then keep it in your pocket for the massive heal when things go wrong.  If you're finding yourself in challenging content where the extra hp/regen matters more, keep clicking it on cooldown.  

 

The +HP powers are really versatile in that regard and you can change it up depending on the situation and the build.  

Edited August 17, 2020 by Omega-202

[Puma]

 

What I think would fix Ice Armor and make it a great set:

 

Change Hoar Frost to a shorter recharge, + Absorb power. Honestly this makes more sense thematically, anyway.  And while +HP benefits you more than absorb, because of regen, the shorter duration would be a trade up in my opinion.   If you need to, keep the +HP but make it shorter duration or a lesser amount in exchange for the +absorb. 

 

Combine Icicles and Chilling embrace into Icey Embrace.   

 

Add a new clicl power called "Cryogenic burst" that grants psionic, toxic, and additional Defense debuff resistance.  The idea is that you can dramatically slow your metabolism to lessen toxic damage, use a cold snap of air to focus or numb yourself mentally,  and the increased coldness makes your ice shields more effective.  Make it a 2 minute duration power that can't be perma (without SERIOUS effort, anyway).  It's primarily meant to be a situational boost, not a permanent one. 

Then you'd have a much more well rounded set, I think.  

Edited August 17, 2020 by Puma