Human Limitation Characters need love.

[Gilbals]

Hi there, I'm new here, so forgive me if this is in the wrong place and it is kinda a major request/suggestion in the realm of powers that may seem over the top or possibly flat out busted.

 

I would love to see an expanded range of powersets added to archetypes with some tweaking. As a person who loves to play a person who may have some fantastical powers, but are otherwise ordinary in the limits of humanity, it would be especially nice to not feel pigeonholed into specific things for the sake of story/character. 

 

For a general overall, there's no good normal person travel power. The usual cop out is to give them flight, or similar and make a techy costume that affords them said movement luxury, however this gets to be boring. Getting the hoverboard is another option, but as it can't be colored at all, it can be somewhat annoying (though albeit hilarious) to have some gritty anti-hero vigilante or outright villain skating about on their bright red jet powered surfboard. My suggestion would be some kind of vehicle based movement power. Obviously not a car or something groundbound, as it would be absolutely weird driving a motorcycle through the watery ports, but possibly something like a small personal vtol craft like I think the Nebula have? It's a small fighter ship, or similar small craft like this. Maybe a final upgrade for it be a different larger vehicle or something? Or a group flight option that locks players to the "pilot" of a large craft? I know this seems overly complex and understand that. Just thinking in text trying to get the idea across.

 

Powersets: Say you just wanna make some guy who's a weapon nut, a guy who has some strange affinity to be good with weapons...well you make him a blaster and give him pistols or assault rifles. Nifty...now for secondaries...hmm I can give him some techy traps, I can give him some control over martial arts, or I can have him have a katana moveset... It would be nice if there were expanded options. Axe and regular sword perhaps? Maybe Mace or dual blades? Would this be too much? The katana movepool is a little too ninja wannabe for my tastes, the martial arts pool is alright, and tech traps is immediately the usual go to for characters like this. I believe there's many other options that could be explored here as well. The problems kinda exists for most archetypes in some form or fashion. 

 

Anyway, thank you for reading my suggestions and I understand they're probably very unreasonable from a dev perspective. Just sharing thoughts.

[Greycat]

As I recall, the issue with vehicles (other than some of them looking odd, if you've ever seen a sky raider skiff or longbow chaser in a small office) is having to reanimate *everything* to work with a vehicle. All attacks, buffs, etc. Not *as* much for something like a jetpack, since they tend to use flying animations anyway.

[Gilbals]

You could lock it down where you can't do anything like the hoverboard or afterburner flight power. Where you have to drop out of the power to do anything. That could be a drawback to it.

[ShardWarrior]

"Natural origin" does not necessarily mean "normal human."  See Superman, Aquaman, Martian Manhunter, Thor, Namor etc.

 

 

[Gilbals]

Oh I'm aware. I use Natural Origin for "Alien" races or heroes that have innate abilities as well, but also Natural Origin is also just regular human, being that it's the only one that fits that. However I used it as a broad term. I have a mutation based hero, but beyond their mutant abilities, they're regular people with regular limits. Same applies there. I suppose the title could be edited to be more fitting.

[Lines]

The planned Utility Belt power pool is supposed to come with a Freerunning power. My hope that it's in the region of Ninja Run/Beast Run but without the animation. I have a bunch of heroes who cannot wait for a 'normal human' travel power.

 

A natural control powerset of some sort has been on my wishlist since forever.

 

My biggest qualm is with the Well of Furies storytelling pulling the rug out from underneath whatever we have in mind for our characters, but maybe that's another discussion.

[Greycat]

Just now, Lines said:

My biggest qualm is with the Well of Furies storytelling pulling the rug out from underneath whatever we have in mind for our characters, but maybe that's another discussion.

... yeah, to be honest I generally ignore that whole bit of lore. My electrical blast has Ion judgement because... it's a sensible progression, for instance. I *really* don't like the whole "the well can take you over, oooooooh!" bit. It was better when the well was more vague.

[Lines]

Just now, Greycat said:

... yeah, to be honest I generally ignore that whole bit of lore. My electrical blast has Ion judgement because... it's a sensible progression, for instance. I *really* don't like the whole "the well can take you over, oooooooh!" bit. It was better when the well was more vague.

HEY YO IT'S THE FUTURE YOU'RE A GOD NOW.

LIKE IT.

[ShardWarrior]

4 minutes ago, Lines said:

My biggest qualm is with the Well of Furies storytelling pulling the rug out from underneath whatever we have in mind for our characters, but maybe that's another discussion.

Same here.

[Patti]

Giant-eyed jigglypuff is wise.  All hail giant-eyed jigglypuff!

[MTeague]

In Live, I had two characters who never took a travel power at all.

This was before Fitness was inherent, and you had to squeeze in the power selections to get Stamina.

 

They actually skipped Health (I know, I know, but it was HARD fitting everything in on them....), and just took Swift, Hurdle, (on the way to Stamina) and Combat Jumping.

And I put 1 extra slot into Swift for *two* run speed enhancers, and 1 extra slot into hurdle for *two* jump enhancers.

That was the bargain basement travel power. 

 

It worked decently well. Still slow to get anywhere, but if you want someone who's got zero superpowers.... it's an option.

 

As far as the Well .... I have two characters on HC who I'm thinking of never having them craft a single incarnate power ever. 

They'll unlock the incarnate slots because I can't decline them.

But I don't ever have to craft a single incarnate power if I want to keep them mortals.

It would sentence them to forever more soloing anything 45+ because no point in even trying to team when everyone else is a god and you're not. 

[ninja surprise]

8 hours ago, Gilbals said:

Obviously not a car or something groundbound, as it would be absolutely weird driving a motorcycle through the watery ports, but possibly something like a small personal vtol craft like I think the Nebula have

Problem solved: buy the Team Transporter and then go somewhere every 30 minutes... 😔

 

I just forgot his name but there's a recurring villain, all-natural, uses dual pistols.. not Maverik... in hero tips you have to prevent him from getting bomb triggers... and he teleports so that means it's OK. Try that?

[Greycat]

8 minutes ago, ninja surprise said:

I just forgot his name but there's a recurring villain, all-natural, uses dual pistols.. not Maverik... in hero tips you have to prevent him from getting bomb triggers... and he teleports so that means it's OK. Try that?

Maelstrom.

[Outrider_01]

You are fighting incredibly fantastic foes in imaginary situations.

 

That isn't naturally possible 🙄

[Blackfeather]

13 hours ago, Lines said:

The planned Utility Belt power pool is supposed to come with a Freerunning power. My hope that it's in the region of Ninja Run/Beast Run but without the animation. I have a bunch of heroes who cannot wait for a 'normal human' travel power.

 

A natural control powerset of some sort has been on my wishlist since forever.

 

My biggest qualm is with the Well of Furies storytelling pulling the rug out from underneath whatever we have in mind for our characters, but maybe that's another discussion.

I do like these quotes from @Sakura Tenshi about the Incarnate system.

On 2/5/2020 at 6:22 AM, Sakura Tenshi said:

The only mistakes with the incarnate system were:

1. The devs poorly worded the lore behind it to make it sound like we were all being shoe-horned into a mystical origin instead of origins picked at character creation and imagined our characters' story around

2. Interface should have been broken into two slots: the damage proc and the effect so we can actually get the appropriate effects we want like energy damage and end-drain to make a psudo lightning sword

3. Relatedly: interface feels like something that would have been cooler as part of base gameplay

4. No lore pets based on Mastermind pets so masterminds can feel like they've summoned even more Robots, Mercs, Thugs, Zombies, Ninja, etc.

5. NO WEAPON JUDGEMENT ANIMATIONS (I just want my katana tocatch the lightning then shoot it out in a swing!)

On 2/5/2020 at 12:51 PM, Sakura Tenshi said:

The funniest part is that the devs have later clarified that they basically never intended to overwrite the player characters' origin and stories we had imagined, rather it was just a (sort of badly written) attempt to give some thematic naming and concept behind the incarnate system. I think the genuine worst offender though wasn't even incarnate content itself, but in the origin of powers arcs.

 

All they had to say was "incarnate level science is NOT your character applying a universal mystical force, but your scientist having that breakthrough moment of realizing 'reversing the polarities' CAN work."

[Haijinx]

obligatory Motorcycle suggestion

[Sakura Tenshi]

3 hours ago, Haijinx said:

obligatory Motorcycle suggestion

Too radical for this game.

[Alchemystic]

I got a few natural inspired powersets over in the other thread, feel free to check these ones out;

 

Throwing Blades

Urban Assault/Warfare

Trickery

Primal Aura

Munitions/Tactical Rifle/Rifle Assault

Utility Grenades

Weapon Combat

Fire Support

Advanced Tactics

 

 

 

[Thezanman]

On 8/25/2020 at 11:56 AM, Greycat said:

... yeah, to be honest I generally ignore that whole bit of lore. My electrical blast has Ion judgement because... it's a sensible progression, for instance. I *really* don't like the whole "the well can take you over, oooooooh!" bit. It was better when the well was more vague.

I'm remembering from when I played the original Incarnate storyline right when Going Rogue released, but I'm pretty sure the Well can only take control of people who took the shortcut to instantly gain Incarnate power. The player character always does it the hard way, slowly gathering more and more power.

[Greycat]

2 hours ago, Thezanman said:

I'm remembering from when I played the original Incarnate storyline right when Going Rogue released, but I'm pretty sure the Well can only take control of people who took the shortcut to instantly gain Incarnate power. The player character always does it the hard way, slowly gathering more and more power.

But you're still "gaining it from the well," as I recall, which... no thanks. Maybe some of my characters would be fine with it - some might even *want* the fast progression, damn the risk, though we don't get that choice either - but for the most part... no.

[ClawsandEffect]

On 9/3/2020 at 6:28 AM, Greycat said:

But you're still "gaining it from the well," as I recall, which... no thanks. Maybe some of my characters would be fine with it - some might even *want* the fast progression, damn the risk, though we don't get that choice either - but for the most part... no.

My blaster is a mutant teleporter who uses guns and Martial Arts. 

 

I headcanoned his Incarnate progression to simply be the well boosting his already existing abilities, instead of giving him new ones. With Vorpal Judgement basically being a rapid teleport attack using the same kick animation Martial Combat's Storm Kick already had, it's a no-brainer. 

 

Unfortunately, he's the only character I have whose Incarnate power choices were that easy to make. A lot of the time I have to really reach for something that makes some kind of sense. 

[BrandX]

On 8/25/2020 at 10:42 AM, ShardWarrior said:

"Natural origin" does not necessarily mean "normal human."  See Superman, Aquaman, Martian Manhunter, Thor, Namor etc.

 

 

Whoa whoa whoa!

 

Superman.  Yes.  Martian Manhunter.  Yes.  Aquaman.  Yes.  Thor.  Yes.  Namor.  No.  He's a mutant! 😛

[BrandX]

On 8/25/2020 at 10:46 AM, Gilbals said:

Oh I'm aware. I use Natural Origin for "Alien" races or heroes that have innate abilities as well, but also Natural Origin is also just regular human, being that it's the only one that fits that. However I used it as a broad term. I have a mutation based hero, but beyond their mutant abilities, they're regular people with regular limits. Same applies there. I suppose the title could be edited to be more fitting.

That could still be mutant origin.  Mutant origin doesn't mean they have the best of powers or powerful abilities.

[ABlueThingy]

On 9/3/2020 at 6:28 AM, Greycat said:

But you're still "gaining it from the well," as I recall, which... no thanks. Maybe some of my characters would be fine with it - some might even *want* the fast progression, damn the risk, though we don't get that choice either - but for the most part... no.

If I understood it correctly, "The Well" is really two concepts that are interlinked.  There is a sentient being that claims to be "The Well" which is implied to be a human from a very very very long time ago.  The first person to connect themselves to the metaphysical concept of human potential.  From there this being established(?) the original origins, ie "Paths of Power." However this being only acts as a gatekeeper.

 

In the CoH universe the laws of thermodynamics are wrong.  Matter and energy cannot be destroyed just like our world, you can only change it's state. In the CoH universe however they can be created.  Pure faith can generate new energy from nothing.  You can build a perpetual motion machine.  A single genetic mutation lets you shoot infinite lasers out of your eyes.  But there's more to it than that.  "Power" can't be destroyed.  That is more then just face lasers.  It's the charisma to move nations to war.  The minds that invent and innovate.  The will to change.

 

All of these things remain.  In some cases literally, lost artifacts or ancient magic sitting around waiting for you to pick it up.  But even obscure things like the above mentioned charisma remain. All of it gets stored in a kind of Akashic record of all of humanity's great feats.  That is the real well.  It's not some asshole wizard called "The Well" that trickles off power to you.  It's the metaphysical concept of potential. Humanity's potential specifically, thought it is stated that any beings linked to humanity can tap it.

 

... There just happens to be an asshole wizard who trickles off the power to people that is stopping you from getting to it.  That's a problem of delivery, the Devs didn't introduce that very well.

 

The old stories of heroes of legend often have people doing impossible feats.  Things like climbing an infinite mountain or defeating their own reflection. Convincing an army of animals to follow them into combat.  Most of them are not wizards or mutants.  Many of them are not even related to gods(or in their mythology "God" isn't a separate kind of being.) In the CoH universe these are people who tapped the well.  Went beyond mere origins.  A hypothetical Natural Original Kat/Will incarnate could swing their blade and severe the ties that bond two people so they are no longer in love.  Because love is real and he can cut any real thing, therefore...

 

In the CoH world, the limits of what a human can do are not what they appear.  They're being artificially squeezed and limited by the asshole wizard only letting people tap specific lines of power.  People who can tap the full potential of humanity are... not the same as what would be considered a normal human.  They're Epic in the original meaning.  The things of legends.

 

Now mind you this is going into the Silver Surfer levels, the post-CoH Q/A covered that.  The players were eventually suppose to surpass the well entirely and become their own well separate from humanity and tap into the source of all being.  Kind of a secular god entity. There would be weird angel type beings and other god-level entities. Marvel and DC comics have similar things for the "Cosmic power level" characters like Thanos, Silver Surfer, Galactus, etc.

 

THAT ALL SAID. While I would love to see the Devs expand the incarnate system and keep going up to explore the mysteries of the cosmos... I think we need a second advancement system for people who don't want to do incarnate nonsense.   I have too many characters that would become unintelligible if they progressed into cosmic bullshittery. I dunno what that would be but... yeah.  Not everyone's story needs ends up with them punching god.

 

 

 

 

 

[FoulVileTerror]

@ABlueThingy . . . I've been mulling the Anti-Incarnate System in my head for quite a while now.

I can't think of a way to effectively implement it without a whole Expansion's-worth of content and features . . . but I very much agree that providing players an alternative to the Incarnate system would be absolutely stellar!  

 

The basic jist of it:

Anyone familiar with the Pariah from Warhammer 40,000?  

Like that.  But rather than just being a bit of genetic engineering from an antediluvian race of techno-liches, it would be a whole series of intentional efforts akin to what the Rikti did in their home dimension to slay their own gods.

 

Could make for some really compelling stories too.

"Oh no!  The Battalion is coming!  You know what this means?"
"It means we have to use the Power of The Well to fight back against them!"

"What?  No!  They're only coming -because- of the Well.  We need to DESTROY the Well!"

"What!?  Are you insane!  If we do that then, like, 80% or more of all heroes will lose their Powers!"

"Yeah, sorry, but that's a cost worth -saving humanity from enslavement or death-!"

"Bullshit!  We've beat the Rikti!  We've beat the Praetorians!  We've beat MOT!  We can take care of the Battalion!"

et cetera

 

That's some Grade A level conflict right there.  Lots of narrative potential.