An argument for cheating...

[Shred Monkey]

On 9/11/2020 at 9:55 AM, Bill Z Bubba said:

Based on the responses so far:

Should be removed from the game regardless

Waste of inf in general

Partial coverage from Rune of Protection + insps is good enough (Costs a pool selection and 2 prereq choices)

Doesn't matter at 50 thanks to Destiny Clarion (Blocks you from other Destiny powers)

Just play a set with mez protection and not worry about it (Blocks you from a whole slew of wonderfully fun combos)

 

I don't know where I am on the topic to be honest. Thus the thread. I was honestly curious as to what others are thinking and my OP was actually a truthful statement. I have a lot more fun playing my blasters, corruptors and controllers when I never have to even bother thinking about being mezzed.

 

Back before the snap, I played almost entirely melee because of how borked the mez situation is in this game. Now we have an out that didn't exist then but it absolutely does feel "cheaty" to use it. I'm just finding that I may no longer care just like I don't care about PLing to 50 anymore.

 

Anyone else finding the same? That old rules you may have had in place seem less than meaningful these days?

 

This is how I feel these days.  The "golden rules" of gaming are very important to me.  I abhor anything that is "pay to win."  And "power-leveling exploits" are next in line in my hate list.  And LOOTBOXES!!!  Ugghhh... don't get me started.  

 

But this game is so far gone that all of that now gets a pass from me.  Essentially CoH is no longer a game.  It's a broken game.  It's a sandbox.  It's a creator mode game, not a survival mode game.  This is also fun, but not in the same way. 

 

 

 

[MTeague]

On 9/11/2020 at 10:55 AM, Bill Z Bubba said:

Anyone else finding the same? That old rules you may have had in place seem less than meaningful these days?

The old rules still matter to me, and I won't use them.

And I do sort of miss when teams liked to have a Defender for a Clear Mind or other similar buff.

 

But I don't get upset over the amplifiers existing or anything.  I've simply filed into into my list of "personal rules my characters must follow".

I tend to solo about 50% of the time, and when I solo, all of my personal rules are in effect.

When I team, there's almost always a support class who can buff status protection onto others, and I can at least pretend that that support class is being diligent about passing around Clear Mind or Increase Density or Clarity or Antidote or What-Have-You.

Edited September 14, 2020 by MTeague

[Twisted Toon]

2 hours ago, MTeague said:

and I can at least pretend that that support class is being diligent about passing around Clear Mind or Increase Density or Clarity or Antidote or What-Have-You.

So, what set does the What-Have-You power come from?

[Bill Z Bubba]

2 minutes ago, Twisted Toon said:

So, what set does the What-Have-You power come from?

Duh. The Whatever Affinity set.

[MTeague]

2 minutes ago, Twisted Toon said:

So, what set does the What-Have-You power come from?

It's from the Hypothetical Support powerset.

 

Other powers include

• Imagine If You Will
• For The Sake of The Argument
• Suspension of Disbelief

That last one is hugely popular, since it prevents people from complaining that Faster Than Light travel isn't possible when watching Sci-Fi

[Twisted Toon]

47 minutes ago, MTeague said:

It's from the Hypothetical Support powerset.

 

Other powers include

• Imagine If You Will
• For The Sake of The Argument
• Suspension of Disbelief

That last one is hugely popular, since it prevents people from complaining that Faster Than Light travel isn't possible when watching Sci-Fi

All with Psionic damage, I presume.

Looking forward to using it. 😉

[Galaxy Brain]

Tbh, this has always bothered me *a lot*

 

Tanks having a ton of mez protection = sure, makes sense as they're expected to take a ton of heat.

 

Other melees having mez protection = also sure, they're expected to be in the thick of it... except the way it plays out with their values + damage output/etc they may as well be mez immune like tanks are to where all mez except the random, rare holes poke in for certain content (except KB on certain sets)

 

All other ATs = essentially defenseless,  which sucks in comparison to the next step up (melee dps) which are practically mez immune at all times.

 

On top of this, in a practical sense all mezzes are sort of the same when youre hit by them except immobilize. Sleep / Stun / Hold / Fear all render you unable to act for a time unless you pop a break free, or happen to get hit again/healed by an outside source (for sleeps and fears, sorta). Knockback isn't as bad unless you get unlucky where you're hit, but often KB causes the enemy to change behavior which makes it sort of a net neutral situation. Chain KD stinks tho. Confuse is incredibly rare despite it being a hole many mez protections have, so that ends up being kind of a wash too. Immobilize is rarely a factor for ATs who get mezzed tbh.

 

This is where the frustration comes from the most i feel. Armored ATs across the board basically never have to stop while everyone else just doesn't get to play whenever any commoj mez hits. If there were some scaling like Blastsrs can be held but they have mag 5 stun protection, or stuff in between thatd go a long way.

 

 

[Infinitum]

4 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Tbh, this has always bothered me *a lot*

 

Tanks having a ton of mez protection = sure, makes sense as they're expected to take a ton of heat.

 

Other melees having mez protection = also sure, they're expected to be in the thick of it... except the way it plays out with their values + damage output/etc they may as well be mez immune like tanks are to where all mez except the random, rare holes poke in for certain content (except KB on certain sets)

 

All other ATs = essentially defenseless,  which sucks in comparison to the next step up (melee dps) which are practically mez immune at all times.

 

On top of this, in a practical sense all mezzes are sort of the same when youre hit by them except immobilize. Sleep / Stun / Hold / Fear all render you unable to act for a time unless you pop a break free, or happen to get hit again/healed by an outside source (for sleeps and fears, sorta). Knockback isn't as bad unless you get unlucky where you're hit, but often KB causes the enemy to change behavior which makes it sort of a net neutral situation. Chain KD stinks tho. Confuse is incredibly rare despite it being a hole many mez protections have, so that ends up being kind of a wash too. Immobilize is rarely a factor for ATs who get mezzed tbh.

 

This is where the frustration comes from the most i feel. Armored ATs across the board basically never have to stop while everyone else just doesn't get to play whenever any commoj mez hits. If there were some scaling like Blastsrs can be held but they have mag 5 stun protection, or stuff in between thatd go a long way.

 

 

Trollers - Indomitable Will FTW   come on its calling - power boost is the path to the dark side anyway.

[Galaxy Brain]

29 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

Trollers - Indomitable Will FTW   come on its calling - power boost is the path to the dark side anyway.

Fair, but by the time you get that it's super super late and Armor AT's usually get their mez protections by like lvl 12ish

[Sir Myshkin]

5 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

If there were some scaling like Blastsrs

You know what just came to mind that I think would be kind of interesting? An added effect to the defiance amplifiers in Blaster secondary attacks that grants status protection points for the duration of the defiance stack. Since the T1 can be used while mezzed, would give the Blaster a chance to "break free" of the mez effect by swinging a couple of times and breaking the initial mez.

[Infinitum]

21 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Fair, but by the time you get that it's super super late and Armor AT's usually get their mez protections by like lvl 12ish

that would be an excellent argument for new set bonuses and uniques to provide a measure of that protection early level

[Twisted Toon]

Play a Grav/Time controller and show them AVs, with purple triangles of doom, what control is all about.

If PvP played just like PvE, then Tanks (Well, everything actually) would be helpless.

[PeregrineFalcon]

I know I'm late to the party here.

 

I buy all of the amps on a new character. It only runs Inf24K, and they generally last me until level 20-22.

 

After that there's KB protection IOs and the temp powers that you can make in bases. Anyone, besides me, remember that those are still there?

[RageusQuitus2]

3 hours ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

I know I'm late to the party here.

 

I buy all of the amps on a new character. It only runs Inf24K, and they generally last me until level 20-22.

 

After that there's KB protection IOs and the temp powers that you can make in bases. Anyone, besides me, remember that those are still there?

I do the same, although the mezz RESISTANCE temp powers seem a waste.  Reduces mez a fraction of a second if my calculations are correct?  I tend to focus on recharge and recovery.  Sometimes some damage resistance of the type common in the TF im running.

[Bill Z Bubba]

6 hours ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Anyone, besides me, remember that those are still there?

I remember them and ponder them at times but I've gotten into the habit of dumping anything that isn't orange or purple at the quartermaster in my base so I never have anything with which to craft.

[Omega-202]

22 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

I remember them and ponder them at times but I've gotten into the habit of dumping anything that isn't orange or purple at the quartermaster in my base so I never have anything with which to craft.

Don't bother using what drops or sorting through it.  Dump the drops on the market/a vendor and buy the things you commonly use for the temp powers in stacks from the market.  

 

It takes longer to sort your drops than it does to just sell everything and rebuy what you need.  

[Neiska]

Reading through some of the comments here, I would like to say that I am kind of suprised by what people consider "cheating".

 

To me, "cheating" is using outside hacking/botting programs or things expressly against the terms of use. But systems within the game itself, if they are available to everyone, that isnt cheating. 

 

Everyone has the same access to the same tools. Not everyone will agree different tools are "just and fair" for their perfered playstyle. And therein lays the crux of the issue.

 

A few examples mayhaps. 

 

One friend of mine, plays by what he calls the "Iron Man" rules. He never buys "anything". No P2W, no auction house, he doesnt even buy plain IOs from vendors. He only uses the materials he finds himself, the IOs he finds himself, the recipies he finds himself. Thats all! So to him, he very well could claim "anyone who spends infamy that isnt crafting" is cheating, at least by his own self imposed rules and playset. (Note- He doesnt claim that at all! I am only illustrating for the point).

 

Another example, another friend of mine, well she is deaf IRL. She can read and type just fine. But she can't hear. And she plays the game too. Well, logically by some arguments here, she could say that anyone who uses voice chat or discord is cheating, by her standards as well. Now she doesnt begruge anyone who uses those things, again, only illustrating the point.

 

And I also conceed before anyone comments, that these are two very extreme examples, and are by and far not the normal!

 

I guess what I am trying to say is, maybe people should stop focusing on other people, how others play, and how others have fun. And perhaps focus on their own enjoyment and what makes them enjoy the game.

 

Don't like P2W? Thats fine! Don't use it. But mabye dont begruge others that do use it.

Don't like AE? Thats fine too! Don't use it. No one is cocering or twisting your arm to. But its there for those that enjoy it.

Don't like PvP? Thats fine as well! Then don't. But allow people who do or dont like it to enjoy it. 

Don't like story missions? Thats also okay! Not everyone likes doing the same ones over and over. And not everyone has the time to play through an entire story mission! They might only have 30 minutes or so to play, for whatever RL things they have going on.

Don't like the Auction House? Thats okay too! Don't use it if you dont want to. I bet the sense of accomplishment would be fantastic if you do get a fully leveled hero using purely self found and made things! (honestly, I think that would be pretty epic to accomplish.)

 

Don't share these opinions? Thats fine too! Everybodys different. Everyone is going to like different things, or play differently. Even in the same game! But I like to think thats what also is the game's strong point, how it can appeal to so many different sorts of people all within the same game - the Powergamers, the Dedicated Roleplayers, the Hardcore Storymode Heroes, the Soloers, the Raiders, the Auction House Watchers, the Supergroup Folks, the Lone Wolves, the Base Builders, the Contest Hosters, and more. 

 

Not everyone is going to agree here, and I would say thats normal, to be expected in fact. But I do hope that we can all agree that we all have the same access to the same tools provided, and the only things that change is which ones we each perfer to use, and the manner in which we perfer to use them.

 

So lets live and let live? I'll do my thing, you do yours, and maybe if we both like the same thing we can meet in the middle somewhere? And lets leave it up to the game moderators, hosts, and folks running this out of their own free time decide what is and is not cheating.

 

Best wishes to all, no matter what sort of player you are!

[Bill Z Bubba]

32 minutes ago, Neiska said:

I guess what I am trying to say is, maybe people should stop focusing on other people, how others play, and how others have fun. And perhaps focus on their own enjoyment and what makes them enjoy the game.

100% correct as is the rest of the post but this part jumped out. And if you go back to the original post, you'll see I consider it cheating AND find it ok.

 

True Neutral for the win.

[Xanatos]

On 9/11/2020 at 3:55 PM, Bill Z Bubba said:

Anyone else finding the same? That old rules you may have had in place seem less than meaningful these days?

Self-imposed rules are as meaningless now as they have always been.

[Bill Z Bubba]

Just now, Xanatos said:

Self-imposed rules are as meaningless now as they have always been.

Objectively, yes. Subjectively, no.

[Doomrider]

23 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Tbh, this has always bothered me *a lot*

 

Tanks having a ton of mez protection = sure, makes sense as they're expected to take a ton of heat.

 

Other melees having mez protection = also sure, they're expected to be in the thick of it... except the way it plays out with their values + damage output/etc they may as well be mez immune like tanks are to where all mez except the random, rare holes poke in for certain content (except KB on certain sets)

 

All other ATs = essentially defenseless,  which sucks in comparison to the next step up (melee dps) which are practically mez immune at all times.

 

On top of this, in a practical sense all mezzes are sort of the same when youre hit by them except immobilize. Sleep / Stun / Hold / Fear all render you unable to act for a time unless you pop a break free, or happen to get hit again/healed by an outside source (for sleeps and fears, sorta). Knockback isn't as bad unless you get unlucky where you're hit, but often KB causes the enemy to change behavior which makes it sort of a net neutral situation. Chain KD stinks tho. Confuse is incredibly rare despite it being a hole many mez protections have, so that ends up being kind of a wash too. Immobilize is rarely a factor for ATs who get mezzed tbh.

 

This is where the frustration comes from the most i feel. Armored ATs across the board basically never have to stop while everyone else just doesn't get to play whenever any commoj mez hits. If there were some scaling like Blastsrs can be held but they have mag 5 stun protection, or stuff in between thatd go a long way.

 

 

Agreed. The way built-in mez protection currently renders most melee classes essentially mez immune compared to the limited ways to mitigate mez on classes that are less fortunate has always been a bit strange to me.

That being said, if every AT had some way to passively mitigate mez (make it not affect them at all) what point is there for enemies to even have CC abilities anymore? Idk, maybe i'm misreading things, but it seems like some players that typically gravitate towards melee classes, wish they could play their squishy classes without fear of being mezzed or rather, without having to actively mitigate it. 

Only speaking to my own experience, coming from mainly playing classes without built in mez protection, i've gotten use to using Break frees as a sort of 'stun break' so the whole mez thing is not as big a deal to me personally. I know others feel differently about inspiration usage though but that's a whole other topic entirely.

[Bill Z Bubba]

2 minutes ago, Doomrider said:

Idk, maybe i'm misreading things, but it seems like some players that typically gravitate towards melee classes, wish they could play their squishy classes without fear of being mezzed or rather, without having to actively mitigate it. 

That seems accurate and almost completely because, as @Galaxy Brainso perfectly put it, "All other ATs = essentially defenseless,  which sucks in comparison to the next step up (melee dps) which are practically mez immune at all times."

 

[Luminara]

36 minutes ago, Neiska said:

Reading through some of the comments here, I would like to say that I am kind of suprised by what people consider "cheating".

 

It's not a question of actually cheating, being dishonest in some fashion, but instead, ignoring certain archetype stipulations laid down by the original development team.  The specific point here being "squishies shouldn't have status protection, they should rely on their debuffs, status effects of their own, and/or teammates to deal with that" is a rule, and using P2W buffs to sidestep that rule could be considered cheating by the strictest interpretation of the original vision behind the game.

 

The issue becomes quite a bit murkier when one notes that the rule gradually decayed over the life of the game on the original servers, with status protection being added to *PPs, then a power pool, then Incarnate abilities, then, appallingly, as a paid/gacha option.  The vision changed, the options expanded.  Bill was promoting a discussion revolving around whether or not the current version of the game, with the paid-for status protection being free for all to use, could be considered unfair, and if so, why.

 

For my part, in response to the topic of the thread, I believe status effects were grossly abused and too widely disseminated among critters by the developers, and the archetypal restrictions poorly followed and unfairly enforced as a means of artificially inflating the value of status protection.  It created a massive disparity in which sets were considered valuable and which weren't, it forced players to jump through hoops simply to enjoy the game and it ate into development time and resources when the developers addressed issues as they arose (like having to rework status protection inspirations, rework Defiance, create new status protection powers, etc.).  If they had gone one of a hundred other ways with status effects, they could've avoided all of the wasted time, and wouldn't have sunk to the despicable act of cashing in on players' dislike of being mezzed by creating a paid-for/gacha buff.  They fucked up.  And using the paid-for buff now, for free, isn't cheating, it's addressing an oversight in the design of the game, that being an over-reliance on status effects which make the experience of playing less enjoyable.

 

Also, I don't use it.  The old standby of keeping a few Break Free inspirations on hand still works well enough, and after years of playing Trick Arrows characters, I've learned how to avoid being mezzed in most situations.  I also rarely remember that there IS a P2W vendor... but it's nice to know that the option is there if I do remember.

[carroto]

On 9/11/2020 at 9:55 AM, Bill Z Bubba said:

I have a lot more fun playing my blasters, corruptors and controllers when I never have to even bother thinking about being mezzed.

Yeah like others have said, I've limited the range of powersets I'm willing to play on squishies to just those that have some solid way to mitigate mez, which is not many.  Really limits my options.  I never knew that any of the P2W boosts included mez protection.  I'll have to see if they're affordable for me.  I would have no compunctions about doing anything and everything to work around the mez situation in this game.

 

Mez is far too binary in this game.  Have a break-free?  Succeed.  Don't?  Hospital.  I've tried using debuffs and other tactics, but nothing is reliable enough.  However any fix would be a major, breaking change to the game.  So it is what it is.  A design flaw.  As far as I'm concerned there is nothing that I or anyone could do to work around that design flaw that would be out of bounds.

 

Recently I've been considering dipping into the Sorcery pool on some squishies to open up the field a bit, but as has been pointed out, there's a heavy build cost to doing so.  There are no good solutions, at least not for anyone who doesn't PL to 50.  Playing up one really gets to feel how the mez ramps up in the 30s.  Personally I never have soft-capped defenses by that point.  I usually don't bother trying to put together a heavily IO'ed build until 50.  Maybe that's part of my problem.

 

Not sure what I'm trying to say.  I've been searching for solutions that would allow me to play squishies that aren't Sonic Resonance.  If the P2W buffs offer such a solution that would be wonderful.  However based on what some have said it seems that they're not very affordable.  I know that the devs want more inf sinks so I don't suppose they could be persuaded to lower the cost of the one in question.

[MTeague]

23 hours ago, Infinitum said:

Trollers - Indomitable Will FTW   come on its calling - power boost is the path to the dark side anyway.

Aw man, for a half second, I thought you meant Indomitable will came with a Power Boost effect, and I'd been Captain Oblivious all this time, never knowing what I had lol. 

(and was wondering how in gods name anyone would ever take any other epic, if that were so....)