Game Balance & The Endgame

[ivanhedgehog]

On 10/10/2020 at 6:58 AM, oedipus_tex said:

I think the issue is bigger than radio missions or Task Forces. I'm currently on a Trick or Treat team with a couple of incarnates. My defense hasn't dropped below 75% for more than a few seconds. What role does a control or defensive support character play in that environment? The only thing the team needs is more damage. It wasn't always like this. I distinctly remember getting pasted by Trick or Treat mobs and hoping a support character would join.

 

Destiny is the major offending incarnate ability.

 

Part of the challenge of balancing Destiny is it was originally intended to be behind a paywall so the whole team can't use it. We can't reinstall the paywall. But there are ways to make it useful without breaking the game.

 

That's why I would like to see Destiny changed in the following way:

• The full buff of Destiny always affects caster and pets in any type of content
• The AoE portion of the Destiny buff is conditional
  • The AoE portion always triggers in incarnate trials (they are balanced around it)
  • Outside of iTrials, the AoE portion of the buff only triggers if the caster has the new "Unleashed" flag

 

"Unleashed" would be a new flag in the vein of Domination that ramps up the player's incarnate abilities to full strength even when they are outside an iTrial. The main way you get this flag is from a Support character's "extra special" T9. The idea is that the support character can empower one other team member to supply AoE Destiny buffs and greatly enhance the value of bringing the support character while still allowing them to operate by proxy, boosting someone other than themselves. I imegine the following powers would apply the "Unleashed" flag:

• Empathy: Adrenaline Boost
• Pain: Painbringer
• Electric Affinity: Amp Up

trick or treat?? that is a few random mobs, nothing tougher than a boss. It has to scale from level 1 to level 50. They cant buff them to satisfy you without completely breaking the tot experience for level 10s. bad choice of a measuring stick. make a new difficulty level, ultra badass or something. +6 mobs

[ivanhedgehog]

14 hours ago, oedipus_tex said:

 

We mostly agree on this point. So hopefully no one would be too upset if Destiny became mostly 'self and pets' only outside of iTrials. I certainly wouldn't. I have a lot of praise for the original dev team, but Destiny is a power that has made the game less rather than more fun for me.

I would become upset if they nerfed incarnates to be itrial only. If you want to define challenge this way, challenge yourself. Let others set their own difficulty rating. That was always one of the huge strengths of this game.

[Apparition]

15 hours ago, oedipus_tex said:

 

We mostly agree on this point. So hopefully no one would be too upset if Destiny became mostly 'self and pets' only outside of iTrials. I certainly wouldn't. I have a lot of praise for the original dev team, but Destiny is a power that has made the game less rather than more fun for me.

That would make Rikti mothership raids substantially more difficult.  There are far fewer bubblers and Sonic Resonance characters on Homecoming than on live, making the Clarion Destiny critical for the success of a MSR.

[golstat2003]

2 hours ago, oedipus_tex said:

I'm personally skeptical that players are entitled to an AoE buff on par with Destiny. I can see someone saying "Nerfs to Destiny will negatively affect the house of cards that is my build." For that reason buffs to the caster and his or her pets should probably not be changed too much. It's IMO a bigger stretch for someone to say "My build was damaged by my inability to buff the whole team." 

 

iTrials are balanced around Destiny so in that environment it can probably stay. The majority of Task Forces and missions were definitely not balanced around it. I'd encourage the devs to explore taming Destiny for the same reasons they recently started looking at Farsight. Numbers that far off the charts make designing challenges very difficult.

I'd prefer the devs put in a no incarnate option for you so you can form teams that way. And incarnates are only 5 levels, they are NOT int he majority of task forces and missions.

Edited October 12, 2020 by golstat2003

[Wavicle]

26 minutes ago, Apparition said:

That would make Rikti mothership raids substantially more difficult.  There are far fewer bubblers and Sonic Resonance characters on Homecoming than on live, making the Clarion Destiny critical for the success of a MSR.

I don't actually agree with the suggestion about Destiny, but I do want to point out that the devaluation of sets such as FF and Sonic is EXACTLY the problem.

[golstat2003]

1 minute ago, Wavicle said:

I don't actually agree with the suggestion about Destiny, but I do want to point out that the devaluation of sets such as FF and Sonic is EXACTLY the problem.

Yeah even if I feel Destiny doesn't need any changes, this is a valid point. I'd prefer they make the other sets more valuable in situations like this.

 

EDIT: With that said if there WAS a level limit made for incarnate powers, I would prefer if they excluded the MSR from it. (And possibly Hamidon).

Edited October 12, 2020 by golstat2003

[Apparition]

10 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

I don't actually agree with the suggestion about Destiny, but I do want to point out that the devaluation of sets such as FF and Sonic is EXACTLY the problem.

Incarnate abilities have absolutely nothing to do with the devaluation of Force Field and Sonic Resonance.  Cold Domination, Time, and Thermal do.  They are power sets that came about later, after everyone already made their bubblers and Sonic Resonance characters on live.  On Homecoming, Force Field and Sonic Resonance do not have that advantage.

[Phoenix']

2 hours ago, Apparition said:

That would make Rikti mothership raids substantially more difficult.  There are far fewer bubblers and Sonic Resonance characters on Homecoming than on live, making the Clarion Destiny critical for the success of a MSR.

But thats the beauty of it. 

We had successfull MSR long before incarnates. 

People will start making better and more balanced teams again. 

Team bubbles, buffs and spaming lore pets gives not much of a challenge

 

[Apparition]

5 minutes ago, Phoenix' said:

But thats the beauty of it. 

We had successfull MSR long before incarnates. 

People will start making better and more balanced teams again. 

Team bubbles, buffs and spaming lore pets gives not much of a challenge

 

You completely ignored my point.  We had successful MSRs prior to Incarnate abilities because there were plenty of bubblers and Sonic Resonance characters on live.  The reason we don’t have them now is because we have Cold, Time, and Thermal, which are better than Force Field and Sonic Resonance in every single way that matters, with or without Incarnate abilities.

 

If you remove Incarnate abilities outside of iTrials, more people will not start making Force Field nor Sonic Resonance characters.  They’ll stick with Cold, Thermal, and Time which are substantially more useful in every other content outside of MSRs.  As for MSRs, you would have substantial more failures to the point where people would stop running them.

 

No, this glorious era where all Incarnate abilities are removed and people start running “more balanced” teams is a pipe dream based on rose-tinted glasses and nostalgia for a past that will never and can never come again.

Edited October 12, 2020 by Apparition

[summers]

2 hours ago, Apparition said:

That would make Rikti mothership raids substantially more difficult.  There are far fewer bubblers and Sonic Resonance characters on Homecoming than on live, making the Clarion Destiny critical for the success of a MSR.

The Mothership raid was introduced in Issue 10

https://archive.paragonwiki.com/wiki/Issue_10

 

The Destiny slot was released in Issue 19

https://archive.paragonwiki.com/wiki/Issue_19

[Apparition]

2 minutes ago, summers said:

The Mothership raid was introduced in Issue 10

https://archive.paragonwiki.com/wiki/Issue_10

 

The Destiny slot was released in Issue 19

https://archive.paragonwiki.com/wiki/Issue_19

See my posts above, which you ignored.

[summers]

1 minute ago, Apparition said:

See my posts above, which you ignored.

I didn't ignore it, I just disagree with it.

[Apparition]

Just now, summers said:

I didn't ignore it, I just disagree with it.

You disagree that there are substantially fewer bubblers and Sonic Resonance characters now than on live?

[Phoenix']

3 hours ago, Apparition said:

You completely ignored my point.  We had successful MSRs prior to Incarnate abilities because there were plenty of bubblers and Sonic Resonance characters on live.  The reason we don’t have them now is because we have Cold, Time, and Thermal, which are better than Force Field and Sonic Resonance in every single way that matters, with or without Incarnate abilities.

 

If you remove Incarnate abilities outside of iTrials, more people will not start making Force Field nor Sonic Resonance characters.  They’ll stick with Cold, Thermal, and Time which are substantially more useful in every other content outside of MSRs.  As for MSRs, you would have substantial more failures to the point where people would stop running them.

 

No, this glorious era where all Incarnate abilities are removed and people start running “more balanced” teams is a pipe dream based on rose-tinted glasses and nostalgia for a past that will never and can never come again.

There are plenty bubblers in the game, they just sit on the side because barrier makes em useless. 

People will never stop running MSR.... 

 

 

[Puma]

I have some very real concerns with the direction I see powers and "balance" heading in this game, but they are based on a different design philosophy. 

 

Personally, if I were in charge, the way I would approach "rebalancing" is akin to what they did with Defenders but across archetypes.  When solo, each archetype has a more rounded approach: Blasters controls and sustains are stronger, controllers and Masterminds body guard mode is stronger and their end use is greatly reduced, scrappers and stalkers have stronger armors, etc, Defenders do more damage but with slightly lowered buffs/debuffs, etc.  As you team, the set rebalances where Blasters do more damage but their controls and sustains slightly decrease, controllers controls become less resistable, Defenders and Corrs buffs/debuffs become less resistable, Mastermind pets do more damage, etc. This would make logical sense from an in character perspective because as you team you can focus on your specialty, where solo you have to try and do it all.  It would also help with content we most team with more: TFs, trials, etc.  

 

And no one would feel nerfed, NOR would any archetype really feel like it isn't any good without a team, or, vice versa, like they get lost on a team with nothing to contribute.

 

If controllers always had a few unresistable holds, even on AVs, when teamed, and Defenders had a few unresistable debuffs/buffs, even on AVs, and tankers always had an unresistable taunt, even on AVs, when teamed, it would make teaming more attractive, without hurting them when solo at all. 

  

This change was already done with Defenders and it makes the archetype fully able to solo really well for the first time in a long time, in my opinion, without changing how they function on a team.  

 

In my opinion, on a game this old, nerfing things and trying to force players or archetypes into a certain playstyle is a bad move.  

 

Of course, when I instituted the above, I'd also increase the reward for teaming in one way, and for solo in another.  Say teaming gives greater chance for rare drops in content, the larger the team the more the chance, while solo gives greater influence, XP, and merits for content.  Each has a benefit. 

Edited October 12, 2020 by Puma

[FUBARczar]

8 hours ago, oedipus_tex said:

I'm personally skeptical that players are entitled to an AoE buff on par with Destiny. I can see someone saying "Nerfs to Destiny will negatively affect the house of cards that is my build." For that reason buffs to the caster and his or her pets should probably not be changed too much. It's IMO a bigger stretch for someone to say "My build was damaged by my inability to buff the whole team." 

 

iTrials are balanced around Destiny so in that environment it can probably stay. The majority of Task Forces and missions were definitely not balanced around it. I'd encourage the devs to explore taming Destiny for the same reasons they recently started looking at Farsight. Numbers that far off the charts make designing challenges very difficult.

Just thinking out loud here...

Yeah Destiny is mainly OP because it buffs so many players over a wide area with large buffs, which are often times stacked with multiple casters.  I would think limiting the # of targets and its AoE OR making destiny buffs non-stackable are options.

 

And judgements recharge should be at least doubled.  Something that would hopefully encourage selective use and possibly coordination.  

 

Also, I don't know if iTrials are really "balanced" around Destiny or incarnates in general, other than level shift maybe.  I don't think they were tuned much.

[oedipus_tex]

 

7 hours ago, ivanhedgehog said:

trick or treat?? that is a few random mobs, nothing tougher than a boss. It has to scale from level 1 to level 50. They cant buff them to satisfy you without completely breaking the tot experience for level 10s. bad choice of a measuring stick. make a new difficulty level, ultra badass or something. +6 mobs

 

Thanks for the reply. My response is kind of long so I hope it's not too overbearing.

 

---

 

Trick or Treat has existed since the time I and many others started playing the game, so I've had a chance to experience it under a few different metas. It used to be more challenging but doable. Bringing a support character was very helpful.  Trick or Treat, Invasions, and the MSR are all older pieces of content that allow "mass bunching." That is, the optimal strategy is to bunch all the players together and hit every buff you have. This strategy was effective even before Destiny because players have so many AoE buff powers that benefit. Destiny sent it into overdrive though.

 

The iTrials were reactions to this meta. It's not an accident that iTrials have so many moments where players are forced to move to avoid a death ray. That was put there as a rebuttal  to the bunching strategy after watching how players reacted to invasions and the MSR.

 

---

 

So, why not just add a new +6 mode?

 

The problem with even higher difficulty is the way Defense and Resistance work versus how debuffs and damage work. As you raise level differences the Purple Patch degrades debuffs and damage. At +4, enemies take 48% of debuffs and damage. At +6 they take just 15%. 

 

Player Resistance armors (and Defense, tho slightly more complex) are mostly unaffected by level differences. The soft cap is the soft cap. Once you've given the players 75% or 90% resists, depending on their archetype, it can't go higher. This is why developers should keep an eye on these attributes. It's the same issue with Power Boosted Farsight. Once these numbers hit the limits, designing content to challenge players without vaporizing non-top end teams becomes harder and harder.

 

How do you challenge players with very high Defense for example? You raise the base ToHit of enemies like was done in iTrials. I'd like to do everything to avoid that. (That higher ToHit base is also why I think Destiny is okay in iTrials). 

Edited October 12, 2020 by oedipus_tex

[Blackfeather]

1 hour ago, oedipus_tex said:

How do you challenge players with very high Defense for example? You raise the base ToHit of enemies like was done in iTrials. I'd like to do everything to avoid that. (That higher ToHit base is also why I think Destiny is okay in iTrials).

Obviously while they're two fairly different games, I do like the idea of Bounded Accuracy in D&D 5e. Does serve as an interesting contrast in how one might end up scaling one's power level by level, at the very least. A swarm of enemies, even lower level ones, can still be a sizable threat for even higher level characters - AC does not increase very much, along with saving throws - theoretically at least. Of course, said characters have plenty more ways to deal with them as well in turn, due to their higher level.

 

I do believe you made a post on this sort of thing a little while back here to deal with this sort of high amounts of defence. It's certainly an interesting concept!

Edited October 12, 2020 by Blackfeather

[oedipus_tex]

10 minutes ago, Blackfeather said:

Obviously while they're two fairly different games, I do like the idea of Bounded Accuracy in D&D 5e. Does serve as an interesting contrast in how one might end up scaling one's power level by level, at the very least. A swarm of enemies, even lower level ones, can still be a sizable threat for even higher level characters - AC does not increase very much, along with saving throws - theoretically at least. Of course, said characters have plenty more ways to deal with them as well in turn, due to their higher level.

 

I do believe you made a post on this sort of thing a little while back here. to deal with this sort of high amounts of defence. It's certainly an interesting concept!

 

Yes I did post something about that a while back. :) 

 

I still think that combat system could be useful for a specific enemy group or Task Force. The nice thing about Multi Opponent Combat modifiers in games that use them is a squishy character can obtain excellent defense against one or two enemies without turning into a Tank. It also makes Defense less one dimensional, so that Defense obtained from Force Fields or Super Reflexes (for example) is "more real" than Defense from less "authentic" sources. In some ways this is what the current DDR system does. 

Edited October 12, 2020 by oedipus_tex

[golstat2003]

3 hours ago, Phoenix' said:

There are plenty bubblers in the game, they just sit on the side because barrier makes em useless. 

People will never stop running MSR.... 

 

 

Actually I find Force Fields inherently unfun. That was before incarnates and before the MSR. So I stopped playing mine loooooong ago.

[golstat2003]

1 hour ago, oedipus_tex said:

 

Yes I did post something about that a while back. :) 

 

I still think that combat system could be useful for a specific enemy group or Task Force. The nice thing about Multi Opponent Combat modifiers in games that use them is a squishy character can obtain excellent defense against one or two enemies without turning into a Tank. It also makes Defense less one dimensional, so that Defense obtained from Force Fields or Super Reflexes (for example) is "more real" than Defense from less "authentic" sources. In some ways this is what the current DDR system does. 

While interesting theory crafting, I don't see them making that sort of change this late in the game, even in a new difficulty option.  It seems like it would be an insane amount of work. You're right that it could be useful for a future high level task force though.

[oedipus_tex]

15 minutes ago, golstat2003 said:

While interesting theory crafting, I don't see them making that sort of change this late in the game, even in a new difficulty option.  It seems like it would be an insane amount of work. You're right that it could be useful for a future high level task force though.

 

I agree. The original post was a piece of theorycraft for a future Task Force or iTrial, not a recommendation for the core game.

[Lockpick]

11 hours ago, Haijinx said:

I wonder that no one sees the basic disconnect that ANYONE can solo at the highest available difficulty setting.  (Short of throwing on additional buffs and debuffs) 

How do you figure that anyone can solo +4/8.  I started soloing +4/8 in DA on my Savage / SR stalker and was able to do it okay.  I tried on my Psy/EA stalker and kept getting wrecked.  I couldn't imagine trying it on my Illusion / Radiation controller.  I think my Time / DP defender could probably do it.

 

I think to say anyone can do it is a stretch.

[Haijinx]

7 minutes ago, Lockpick said:

How do you figure that anyone can solo +4/8.  I started soloing +4/8 in DA on my Savage / SR stalker and was able to do it okay.  I tried on my Psy/EA stalker and kept getting wrecked.  I couldn't imagine trying it on my Illusion / Radiation controller.  I think my Time / DP defender could probably do it.

 

I think to say anyone can do it is a stretch.

The other way around. 

 

Almost no one should be able to.  

 

That is the setting for big teams, right? 

[Haijinx]

To put it more clearly.

 

You have a Max Difficulty Setting of standard buffed level opposition.  +4 level, Equivalent to 8 standard heroes. 

 

That should not be a SOLO setting.