Game Balance & The Endgame

[Doc_Scorpion]

34 minutes ago, Kraqule said:

Something that should be considered is the development of a non-profit fund for development where CoH fans could sponsor defined updates for the game. Different donation levels and projects could include a variety of in-game gifts for donating. It would also allow the devs to see with real dollars where the players want development.

No, thank you.  That turns development into something worse than a popularity contest (which is bad enough as it is), it turns development into something driven by those with most ability to raise funds.

I mean, unless you want to turn development into a randomized mish mash of ill conceived ideas driven by a minority...  But it won't be long before that minority is all that is left.

I much prefer our current situation, where the Dev team actually has a clue and the willingness to make the hard decisions for the long term health of the game.

[Wavicle]

  

On 3/11/2021 at 10:01 AM, Kraqule said:

To keep the game viable long term the game needs the ability to be allowed to evolve.

 

I firmly disagree. The game needs to find a stable state where it just works and doesn’t need continual change. And we’re pretty close to that.

Edited April 12, 2021 by Wavicle

[Kraqule]

Just now, Doc_Scorpion said:

No, thank you.  That turns development into something worse than a popularity contest (which is bad enough as it is), it turns development into something driven by those with most ability to raise funds.

I mean, unless you want to turn development into a randomized mish mash of ill conceived ideas driven by a minority...  But it won't be long before that minority is all that is left.

I much prefer our current situation, where the Dev team actually has a clue and the willingness to make the hard decisions for the long term health of the game.

The projects offered for development would be decided by the devs ... Why? continuity, storyline, and vision needs to come from the devs. What it does show is the appetite of the players...

For example the Dev's todo list includes as an example:

1. 45 new Additions to the existing costume catalog.
2. Creation of New Attuned enhancement sets to compliment the Winter sets.
3. Expansion of the Pretorian story line to level 45.
4. Addition of the new Archetype SUPERMOD

So lets say the set of financial goals for these development projects  is $12,000, $3,000, $45,000 and $36,000 respectively. What it allows is the dev's to see there is great interest in let's say costumes as it reaches the goal in a day yet the new attuned Enhancements sits for months at $1,000 and despite the higher cost the new archetype garners its goal in a month. These are still all the dev's ideas and the ability to allocate development resources or acquire development resources gives the team flexibility and the ability to plan concepts for the future with less risks.

 

[wjrasmussen]

39 minutes ago, Kraqule said:

The projects offered for development would be decided by the devs ... Why? continuity, storyline, and vision needs to come from the devs. What it does show is the appetite of the players...

For example the Dev's todo list includes as an example:

1. 45 new Additions to the existing costume catalog.
2. Creation of New Attuned enhancement sets to compliment the Winter sets.
3. Expansion of the Pretorian story line to level 45.
4. Addition of the new Archetype SUPERMOD

So lets say the set of financial goals for these development projects  is $12,000, $3,000, $45,000 and $36,000 respectively. What it allows is the dev's to see there is great interest in let's say costumes as it reaches the goal in a day yet the new attuned Enhancements sits for months at $1,000 and despite the higher cost the new archetype garners its goal in a month. These are still all the dev's ideas and the ability to allocate development resources or acquire development resources gives the team flexibility and the ability to plan concepts for the future with less risks.

 

it shows appetites of all the players?  Hard for you to claim that.

 

Besides, they are the ones putting the work into it for free.  You could run your own private server and make things your way.  I expect you would just rather USE people here for your own purposes than put the effort into your own thing.

[rookery.]

I understand the reticence of doing pvp and know it isn't for everyone, I'm not sure its for me, although I am more open to it than I was BUT perhaps villains and heroes could upload versions of themselves to be used in the above scheme by Kraquale. 

 

Instead of fighting the actual Obscene Jester, one is fighting a NPC copy of such that the player has uploaded. Complete with set IO buildout and the like.  The player of Obscene Jester gets updates of whether their character has been beaten or beaten certain heroes....grist for RPers and meat for PVP'ers to try different builds to make their NPC versions more likely to win.

[Doc_Scorpion]

2 hours ago, Kraqule said:

The projects offered for development would be decided by the devs

And?  The problem isn't who puts the projects on the auction block - it's the existence of the auction block.

 

1 hour ago, rookery. said:

Instead of fighting the actual Obscene Jester, one is fighting a NPC copy of such that the player has uploaded. Complete with set IO buildout and the like.

Ever run a Posi 1, or any of the other missions involving a duplicate or doppelganger?  It's usually pretty easy to beat myself because the AI isn't much brighter than a hamster and doesn't can't properly use PC powers to their full effect.

[Haijinx]

PVPrs are always looking for more people to PVP

 

Whether their possible opponents want to PVP or not does not matter to a portion of them.  (Though I don't see too many of that type around Homecoming.) 

 

A tiny sliver of that group actually prefers their opponents to be forced to PVP.  

 

Most PVPrs though probably do not enjoy us bashing PVP all the time.  If that's what they like in the game, then that's fine. 

[Glacier Peak]

For those with anti-pvp sentiment, you gotta admit @Kraqule put some effort in to that post or else you didn't read the whole thing and decided the moment you saw the word pvp it was time to don the tin foil hat.

 

Then again it's the internet and it's always raining on someone's parade.

 

Edit: Though my position wasn't stated clearly in my initial post, I don't think the system that @Kraqule recommended is at all feasible for HC. Like previously stated, it could be undertaken on a private server, the population is too low for those enjoy that type of content to justify the change, and there are likely better ideas in the works to address the end game question if the past few issues/pages are any indication. 

Edited March 12, 2021 by Glacier Peak
Edit

[Darmian]

What about...what about a NARRATIVE end content option for a character?  Bear with me, I'm pretty much thinking this through as I type.  It would take a little bit of work, might need a cut scene, but a mission where if you take it your character IS going to die, but go out in a blaze of glory.  And by "die" I do mean die.  It's gone.  You'd get to strip the body of all salvage/enhancements/etc after and then even the name is sealed off to everyone. Thereafter you'd see citizens mention as they go by, "Hey, do you remember how Doomslayde took out such and such?  Man, that girl, we won't see her like again." "Yeah, there should be a statue.  We should start a petition." And I don't mean like they do after you've done a particular mission, instead a more permanent way.  Admittedly that would also need tweaking, since we can't have citizens passing each other saying the above while another says, "Hey, do you remember how Boom King took out such and such? Man, that guy, we won't see his like again."  Whatever.  

 

Ok, it's nebulous and a bit mad.

Edited March 12, 2021 by Darmian

[Kraqule]

5 minutes ago, Glacier Peak said:

For those with anti-pvp sentiment, you gotta admit @Kraqule put some effort in to that post or else you didn't read the whole thing and decided the moment you saw the word pvp it was time to don the tin foil hat.

 

Then again it's the internet and it's always raining on someone's parade.

Thank you. The focus of the End-Game plan was PVE with after thoughts for PvP. The inspiration actually is one of the best TF's in POSI 1 as it incorporated a good storyline and you battle your own group.

The goal of an end-game is to dust off those toons you all PL'd up in the AE farms... Exploited and sped through the TF's to get the accolades.. Outfitted with enhancements you farmed for weeks for in the same AE. Hopped in BAF 100 times to get the incarnates solved... Exploited and sped through badges you value then when that was done you put the toon in the closet and rarely play since.

What few here remember was that when Villains was rolled out invading the Super Groups base was one of the key visions. What my plan outlined was a way to turn what was supposed to be a PvP centered concept and brought it into the PvE environment. The vision I outlined is actually one of the core visions the Villains had at the core.

Lord forbid anybody actually truly play a character other than a brute in an AE. Such a waste of some great storylines.

[Darmian]

1 minute ago, Kraqule said:

Lord forbid anybody actually truly play a character other than a brute in an AE. Such a waste of some great storylines.

Ok, I'm tired, this isn't meant to be offensive but what does this mean?

[Grindingsucks]

1 hour ago, Darmian said:

Ok, I'm tired, this isn't meant to be offensive but what does this mean?

He means that a large percentage of the time, players running a Brute in AE are just fire farming, rather than playing story missions for the missions sake. 

 

I reckon this is largely true.

[Darmian]

16 minutes ago, Grindingsucks said:

He means that a large percentage of the time, players running a Brute in AE are just fire farming, rather than playing story missions for the missions sake. 

 

I reckon this is largely true.

Thanks, @Grindingsucks. Don't farm so I was blanking there.  I suppose I SHOULD have known, I mean enough people talk about farming and so on, but I tend to zone out when I see that. AE is always story for me.

[golstat2003]

1 hour ago, Kraqule said:

Thank you. The focus of the End-Game plan was PVE with after thoughts for PvP. The inspiration actually is one of the best TF's in POSI 1 as it incorporated a good storyline and you battle your own group.

The goal of an end-game is to dust off those toons you all PL'd up in the AE farms... Exploited and sped through the TF's to get the accolades.. Outfitted with enhancements you farmed for weeks for in the same AE. Hopped in BAF 100 times to get the incarnates solved... Exploited and sped through badges you value then when that was done you put the toon in the closet and rarely play since.

What few here remember was that when Villains was rolled out invading the Super Groups base was one of the key visions. What my plan outlined was a way to turn what was supposed to be a PvP centered concept and brought it into the PvE environment. The vision I outlined is actually one of the core visions the Villains had at the core.

Lord forbid anybody actually truly play a character other than a brute in an AE. Such a waste of some great storylines.

The bolded is such a false a assumption it has to be a joke part of the post.

 

Plenty of folks play their maxed out level 50s nearly every day.

 

I see them around in tfs, regular missions and even in yes, AE.

 

You have some strange ideas that don't jive with the the reality of the game.

 

Also no to anything that has to do with pvp.

[Grouchybeast]

On 3/11/2021 at 9:21 AM, Kraqule said:

1.  By tying resources to all TF's and key story arcs with rewards for more difficulty missions will no longer be raced through and manipulated because as important as completing the TF is killing the mobs for research salvage will almost force players to play the TF's and missions as intended. This in no way will diminish the farmers role in the economy.

This bit interested me.  Why do you think it's important to pressure people into playing the game in a way that they don't enjoy in order to participate in this new endgame?  Why do you think this will help with player retention?

[Kraqule]

8 hours ago, Grouchybeast said:

This bit interested me.  Why do you think it's important to pressure people into playing the game in a way that they don't enjoy in order to participate in this new endgame?  Why do you think this will help with player retention?

Why is it your assumption people do not enjoy grouping and playing the content? The most difficult side of building a character in CoH is the farming of money/enhancements. My argument becomes why does CoH force players to repeat the same farms over and over again to give him/her the resources he needs to build his/her characters? Why is farming in the AE's a much more efficient way of getting recipes and money?

That said these games are MMO's and the vast majority prefer grouping up together and achieving goals together. I think you are confusing the disparity in efficiency with the enjoyment of the game as a whole. I would say 99% of the people I play with enjoy the arcs, TF's and other content far more than canned AE fire farms where there is no challenge BUT to maximize their characters these people farm 2/3rds of the time as a price to enjoy 1/3 of their play.

To me it appears that you are looking at the symptom ..not the cause.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 12, 2021 by Kraqule

[Taboo]

1 minute ago, Kraqule said:

I would say 99% of the people I play with enjoy the arcs,

While this could be true, the opposite is also true.. lots of folks like mashing buttons verse a clock. Others like creating alts and want to level quickly. Others find the fire farms alone relaxing and fun. There are times where more characters are in the AE building that out running about.

[Kraqule]

3 minutes ago, Taboo said:

While this could be true, the opposite is also true.. lots of folks like mashing buttons verse a clock. Others like creating alts and want to level quickly. Others find the fire farms alone relaxing and fun. There are times where more characters are in the AE building that out running about.

I recognized your point in the entire proposal I developed. In none of these posts am I calling for the AE's to be nerfed.. I acknowledged that the destruction of the economy would harm and not help the game but that does not mean the entire game needs to be centered around the AE.

The incarnate system proves that the game can focus on both at the same time.  With everything I have posted NONE of it impacts the importance of farming but rather a way to develop your character a little more while you are not farming... If you so choose.

[Grouchybeast]

1 hour ago, Kraqule said:

Why is it your assumption people do not enjoy grouping and playing the content? The most difficult side of building a character in CoH is the farming of money/enhancements. My argument becomes why does CoH force players to repeat the same farms over and over again to give him/her the resources he needs to build his/her characters? Why is farming in the AE's a much more efficient way of getting recipes and money?

 

Eh?  I don't assume that at all.  I assume that people who enjoy teaming team, and people who enjoy soloing solo, and people who enjoy speeding TFs speed TFs, and people who enjoy kill-all TFs run kill-all TF, and people who enjoy AE fire farms run AE fire farms, and people who enjoy marketing market, and people who enjoy roleplaying roleplay, and people who enjoy PVP PVP, and people who enjoy a mix of all those enjoy a mix of all those.  The game supports a huge variety of playstyles that different players enjoy, and any end-game should do the same -- the exact reason that the mandatory teaming of the Incarnate system caused so many complaints when it was introduced.

 

Incidentally, the idea that CoX 'forces' people to farm AE is simply inaccurate.  Playing the game in a completely 'normal' fashion provides more than enough resources to outfit characters.  I've never farmed, and nor have many other players.

[Wavicle]

1 minute ago, Grouchybeast said:

Incidentally, the idea that CoX 'forces' people to farm AE is simply inaccurate.  Playing the game in a completely 'normal' fashion provides more than enough resources to outfit characters.  I've never farmed, and nor have many other players.

there is a big chunk of players, well represented in AE Farms, that believe that the game starts at 50. They believe this because they’ve played other games where essentially the game starts at max level. But that’s just not true here. The game starts at level one when you make your character. And yes, playing normal absolutely gives you enough resources to outfit your characters. I have yet to have a problem. Haven’t farmed anything in homecoming.

[Coyotedancer]

2 hours ago, Kraqule said:

That said these games are MMO's and the vast majority prefer grouping up together and achieving goals together.

 

At the risk of sounding like a FARK refugee... Citation needed. 

 

This game is, and pretty much always has been, both solo and duo/trio small team friendly. There are a lot of us who run that way rather than joining teams, and enjoy playing that way. You're making a mistake if you assume that everyone's here to run with full groups, or even likes that kind of thing.

[Darmian]

1 minute ago, Coyotedancer said:

 

At the risk of sounding like a FARK refugee... Citation needed. 

 

This game is, and pretty much always has been, both solo and duo/trio small team friendly. There are a lot of us who run that way rather than joining teams, and enjoy playing that way. You're making a mistake if you assume that everyone's here to run with full groups, or even likes that kind of thing.

I for one got into CoX back in the day partly BECAUSE I didn't have to put up with the "if you're not in a guild then you're literally wasting your time" thing I saw elsewhere. 

[Grouchybeast]

2 minutes ago, Coyotedancer said:

This game is, and pretty much always has been, both solo and duo/trio small team friendly. There are a lot of us who run that way rather than joining teams, and enjoy playing that way. You're making a mistake if you assume that everyone's here to run with full groups, or even likes that kind of thing.

 

The server status page illustrates this nicely: 1986 players, and 951 map instances.

[Wavicle]

Indeed. Although I enjoy joining big teams sometimes, the majority of my play time is solo and duo with my rl friend.

[golstat2003]

On 3/12/2021 at 5:10 PM, Wavicle said:

Indeed. Although I enjoy joining big teams sometimes, the majority of my play time is solo and duo with my rl friend.

 

Pretty much this.