Bad Mission Design 101.

[GM Tempest]

Remember to keep it civil, everyone! Thank you for contributing to the discussions, though. We do read over a lot of these and are absolutely aware of some of the more...frustrating aspects of the older missions (and even some of the newer). City of Heroes was released back in 2004, which is a HECKIN' long time ago as far as I'm concerned! As such we're bound to have some elements in the game that are legacy, and haven't received a polish in quite some time. We are certainly working on getting those elements buffed and shined up to a better state, but...well, the game is quite large! There's a lot to do! I, for one, never really enjoyed escort missions or 'stop X from escaping!' all that much either, but then I played Defenders and Masterminds all the time so my ability to lock things down was severely limited!

Thank you for the feedback, though might I suggestion the Suggestions & Feedback forum next time? It might be better suited towards such discussions.

[Luminara]

1 hour ago, GM Tempest said:

Thank you for the feedback, though might I suggestion the Suggestions & Feedback forum next time?

 

You might suggest that, but it wouldn't be appropriate, considering this is neither suggestions, nor feedback on work the HC team is doing.

[tidge]

I actually think this is a better topic for General Discussion. There are many different ways of approaching 'problematic' missions, and I don't see any specific actionable changes that would be worth dev time. It's not as if any devs frequently chime in on threads in the suggestion forums (and when that happens, it is frequently to offer 'calm down' reminders).

 

A thread for venting seems perfectly appropriate.

 

I particularly don't like this aspect of 'rescue'/'kidnap' missions: It's trivial for player characters to have improved movement speed (ehem, inherent Swift) such that the player completely outpaces the civilian. We can talk about the thematic approach & roleplay implications, but such discussions won't change my mind that this side effect of the game's design is essentially griefing players. If player could single-handedly delay another player's progress in PvE mission completion, I don't think that would be long tolerated.

[Patti]

Suggestion?  Isn't it the dictionary definition of feedback?   And since homecoming is now in charge of this game then the feedback is totally valid.  

[Coyotedancer]

On 9/29/2020 at 3:22 AM, Clave Dark 5 said:

Yeah, I often don't pay much attention to the stories and arcs etc. in the game, but I saw your posted picture and took a wild and correct guess about which mission you were going to excoriate. 

 

And I will see you and raise you with the following:  I don't mind escort missions... except this one.  I started it before bed and turns out it's that Johnny Sonata one "Stop the Wailers from disrupting the ritual" which requires you to escort four Mu Mystics to some obelisk.  Oh yeah, and you have to find each one and escort them across a map of St. Martial which feels like it's two miles wide on a side. 

 

But wait, there's more!!  Check this from the wiki for this mission:

 

I was playing solo.  A stalker too, ha ha on me!  My fault for starting it before bed, and for sticking around through it, but I will never do this mission again either.   "Kiiiiiiill Theeeeem!" indeed.

That one I'm okay with... Even though a good half of the times I've run it, I've been on a Stalker. 😝

 

Maybe I'm just amused enough by the Mu guys (That one in particular. I wonder if he ever got to visit Jezabel?)  and the goofiness of the wailers for it to overcome the janky pathfinding and general bother of ambushy escort missions.   

[Luminara]

Cutscenes aren't inherently bad design.  They can be used to convey critical story elements or clues, or lighten up an otherwise dark mission, to give a couple of examples.  The bad design comes in when cutscenes can't be skipped in a game which actively encourages players to make alts.  Cutscenes have never been the prom queen of Co* mechanics since they were introduced, and the developers eventually relented, sparing players from having to sit through them in Incarnate content.  Then, for some inexplicable reason, they decided to dump cutscenes into leveling content, and not give players any way to opt out.

 

Even the best stories in the world can't be experienced unlimited times without the player reaching a point of wanting to just get the heck on with it.  Having all control taken away from the player creates frustration and dissatisfaction.  That's why we have -KB in IOs and set bonuses.  That's why players value status protection, and if they can't acquire it, +Defense/-ToHit as a secondary means of preventing status effects.  We play to play, not to watch a movie of the game engine playing with itself (... not how i intended that to sound, but i'm going to run with it).  Unskippable cutscenes discourage players from experiencing the content again, rather than encourages them.  They know that they're going to have their control taken away from them if they play that content.  Even if they enjoy the cutscenes, they'll eventually reach a point of wanting to do something that doesn't involve being shoved into the passenger seat.

 

And what's the deal with uninterruptible monologues?  The Black Queen yammers on for half a century, preventing mission completion, and there's no way to interact with her or speed it up.  A monologue can be just as valuable as a cutscene when used properly.  It can give the player time to recover, to convey information in a relevant way, as comedic relief, or just to throw some flavor into a mission.  Locking a mission in incomplete state while a player is forced to wait for the NPC to shut the heck up, that's bad design.

 

People play games to play them, not to watch them be played or play out.  Taking away a player's ability to play is questionable design, but taking it away and providing no way, at all, to counter it, that's bad design.  It's just a status effect that doesn't obey the rules, effectively.

[Coyotedancer]

I'm always surprised that Mother hasn't had a terrible, terrible accident with that belt buckle and her... frontal augmentations, let's say.

 

That's just a disaster waiting to happen. 

You know it is.  

 

 

[Patti]

Aiting nothing!  It's already a disaster.

[Patti]

Waiting

[Furiant]

I've always found it strange how many game design tropes developers love but players hate. I'd put the Escort Mission near the top of that list, and the Unskippable Cutscene somewhere near that.

 

One of my pet peeves is having the game speak for my character, usually with the effect of them saying something stupid or being inexplicably oblivious to something that is blatantly obvious to me.

Edited October 1, 2020 by Furiant

[Frostbiter]

Cutscenes are ok but the option to skip all of them would be welcome. At least they aren't quicktime scenes where I have to tap some button as fast as I can. I awlays find them taking me out of the action rather than making me feel like I'm in it. Just show me the freakin scene!

 

 

[Sakai]

I like the cut scenes but would also like a way to say "Nope....seen it 73 times, love it but just no."

 

While I am here I would like to say I am fine with the last mission in Croatoa. If mobs could spawn 'a little bit faster' it would be awesome. Till then I recommend grabbin a smoke, grindin some coffee, or stretchin. Whatever your thing is. 

 

Often I will just go aggro some of those guys I ignored while rescuing the hostages. Lots of them out there. 

 

In regards to the prevent 30 Fir Bolg from escaping 😞 Not because I dislike the mission but in all of the times I have run it I have only succeeded once. And I imagine that was by luck. 

 

 

Edited October 1, 2020 by Sakai

[Sovera]

15 hours ago, Luminara said:

Cutscenes aren't inherently bad design.  They can be used to convey critical story elements or clues, or lighten up an otherwise dark mission, to give a couple of examples.  The bad design comes in when cutscenes can't be skipped in a game which actively encourages players to make alts.  Cutscenes have never been the prom queen of Co* mechanics since they were introduced, and the developers eventually relented, sparing players from having to sit through them in Incarnate content.  Then, for some inexplicable reason, they decided to dump cutscenes into leveling content, and not give players any way to opt out.

 

Even the best stories in the world can't be experienced unlimited times without the player reaching a point of wanting to just get the heck on with it.  Having all control taken away from the player creates frustration and dissatisfaction.  That's why we have -KB in IOs and set bonuses.  That's why players value status protection, and if they can't acquire it, +Defense/-ToHit as a secondary means of preventing status effects.  We play to play, not to watch a movie of the game engine playing with itself (... not how i intended that to sound, but i'm going to run with it).  Unskippable cutscenes discourage players from experiencing the content again, rather than encourages them.  They know that they're going to have their control taken away from them if they play that content.  Even if they enjoy the cutscenes, they'll eventually reach a point of wanting to do something that doesn't involve being shoved into the passenger seat.

 

And what's the deal with uninterruptible monologues?  The Black Queen yammers on for half a century, preventing mission completion, and there's no way to interact with her or speed it up.  A monologue can be just as valuable as a cutscene when used properly.  It can give the player time to recover, to convey information in a relevant way, as comedic relief, or just to throw some flavor into a mission.  Locking a mission in incomplete state while a player is forced to wait for the NPC to shut the heck up, that's bad design.

 

People play games to play them, not to watch them be played or play out.  Taking away a player's ability to play is questionable design, but taking it away and providing no way, at all, to counter it, that's bad design.  It's just a status effect that doesn't obey the rules, effectively.

 

 

I tried not to quote too much but trying to snip something would butcher the message.

 

I've been told in the past that cutscenes (in other games, not CoH) were necessary to give time for the engine to finish loading up resources and that was why they were not skippable. I take this with a shovel sized pinch of salt, but, lacking the technical expertise, I would not call those who say it liars.

 

But if I log into the game and the world and all the players load around me I don't see why me crossing a threshold in a mission needs to trigger a cutscene for things to have the time to load. Regardless I would prefer a loading bar than a cinematic.

 

On a tangent this conversation was had regarding the base macro. My own point at the time mirrored yours in that I, personally, don't come online to play and consider the travel times a riveting part of the experience. I agree it is part of the experience, but when it is the 200th time of playing ping-pong between IP and Talos then I give thanks I don't need to add 2-3 literal minutes of aiming my nose to the nearest tram, travel there, move to the other map, point my nose to the next mission, travel there. The base macro allowed to kill half of that.

 

Or the infamous missions where we are at the butt end of the map, and told to travel to the ferry, loading screen, then to Talos. Then to the tram, loading screen. Then to Skyway. Then travel to the NPC to deliver two lines of text. THEN DO THE SAME BACKWARDS! Part of the experience? Yes, sure. The first three times. The next 197th times it would be a killer. Thank $deity we get the base macro to poof directly to Skyway and then back to Striga.

 

 

Regarding more of the same I did a LRSF yesterday and was grumbling on chat. I MAY have skipped some mechanic I was unaware of, but it was good we had a second tank because I must have been phased 6-8 times during the fight against all the AVs. And it was a loooong phase. Unable to play. Unable to interact. Unable to save my squishies 😭. Unable to pop a breakfree and get out of it. Over and over twiddling my thumbs as I waited to be allowed to continue playing.

[Lines]

I don't mind cutscenes at all, but also going through games fast isn't really a quality I look for in a game.

 

It's making me think, though, the fact that many of us have seen the same few cutscenes repeatedly may be more of a sign of a narrow, player-built meta-preference for a few bits of content rather than the cutscenes themselves being bad game design.

[Luminara]

3 minutes ago, Sovera said:

But if I log into the game and the world and all the players load around me I don't see why me crossing a threshold in a mission needs to trigger a cutscene for things to have the time to load.

 

Dialogue.  They had a lot of problems making it work properly.  That's why two critters conversing on the street will say things non-sequentially (there are screenshots of this all over the favorite quotes thread), or critters in missions will say lines as soon as you zone into the mission rather than when you approach.  Cutscenes were the only way they could ensure that the dialogue would show at the proper time.  At least, until they added end-of-mission-delaying monologuing.  *shakes fist*

[Sovera]

1 minute ago, Luminara said:

 

Dialogue.  They had a lot of problems making it work properly.  That's why two critters conversing on the street will say things non-sequentially (there are screenshots of this all over the favorite quotes thread), or critters in missions will say lines as soon as you zone into the mission rather than when you approach.  Cutscenes were the only way they could ensure that the dialogue would show at the proper time.  At least, until they added end-of-mission-delaying monologuing.  *shakes fist*

A friend of mine trying to make an AE mission is struggling with the monologue options. Darn NPCs are supposed to talk when the PC gets close. But no, they unload all their text all over the screen (oooer) the second we zone in.

[FoulVileTerror]

It's true, @Sovera.  Sometimes cutscenes are used to give time for loading/rendering to finish.

The smart teams made it so you can't skip during that load time, but as soon as it was finished, you would be given that option.

But frustratingly, sometimes cutscenes were unskippable just because of petty reasons, or no reasons at all.  

 

For clarity, I don't believe that was ever the case in City, though.

 

Edited October 2, 2020 by FoulVileTerror
Clarity line added.

[Greycat]

18 hours ago, Coyotedancer said:

I'm always surprised that Mother hasn't had a terrible, terrible accident with that belt buckle and her... frontal augmentations, let's say.

Probably has. But, not her body, she probably doesn't care.

 

16 hours ago, Furiant said:

One of my pet peeves is having the game speak for my character, usually with the effect of them saying something stupid or being inexplicably oblivious to something that is blatantly obvious to me.

... which is one of the things people complain about, especially on redside. (Especially the alignment missions. The one where you get to see three "future yous," because you didn't want to share power with frostfire despite knowing the result is bad? Most of my characters wouldn't make that choice - but I'm told I did, because obviously "evil doesn't share." )

 

3 hours ago, Sovera said:

I've been told in the past that cutscenes (in other games, not CoH) were necessary to give time for the engine to finish loading up resources and that was why they were not skippable. I take this with a shovel sized pinch of salt, but, lacking the technical expertise, I would not call those who say it liars.

Some, yeah. Elevator ridess are also popular for this in single player games.

[Furiant]

35 minutes ago, Greycat said:

Probably has. But, not her body, she probably doesn't care.

 

... which is one of the things people complain about, especially on redside. (Especially the alignment missions. The one where you get to see three "future yous," because you didn't want to share power with frostfire despite knowing the result is bad? Most of my characters wouldn't make that choice - but I'm told I did, because obviously "evil doesn't share." )

 

Some, yeah. Elevator ridess are also popular for this in single player games.

Every time I do the Shining Stars arc I cringe at every line of dialogue my character has; I don't have a single character for whom those responses would be appropriate. 

 

In more technically demanding engines, the cutscene does often serve as an 'animated loading screen' which masks the marshaling of the level assets, scripting, etc. The rendering of the cutscene itself has a known resource cost, so the length of the scene can be tailored to cover the expected load time of the other resources.

 

I tend to forgive the existence of these, but I do prefer an option to skip; sometimes the dialogue is so annoying or I've just seen it so many times, that I'd rather just watch a loading bar.

[Luminara]

19 hours ago, Coyotedancer said:

I'm always surprised that Mother hasn't had a terrible, terrible accident with that belt buckle and her... frontal augmentations, let's say.

 

That's just a disaster waiting to happen. 

You know it is.  

 

 

 

They have the technology.

 

They can rebuild her.

 

She is...

 

The Psionic Woman.

 

This week, find out what happens when she teams up with the Six Billion Inf* Build Man!

[tidge]

2 hours ago, Greycat said:

Some, yeah. Elevator ridess are also popular for this in single player games.

Which reminds me of all the missions in burning buildings in which you take the elevators to move between levels!

[Luminara]

3 hours ago, tidge said:

Which reminds me of all the missions in burning buildings in which you take the elevators to move between levels!

 

That's a feature.

 

A feature of the local crematorium.  You can die AND have your funerary arrangements seen to at the same time!  No more worrying about plots, Nemesis or burial!  Want to apply?  Just visit Elevator Shaft 3, we'll take care of the rest!

[GM Tock]

Lockhart's arc is one of my favorites.  Building under siege, elevator is ahead... oh, wait...  It's broke.  There's no stairs.

 

Solution?  Well, you only live once!  Jump down! 😄

[tanglin]

My memory is fuzzy, but I remember not liking this zone at all, but would slog through the arcs on every character because the witch costume pieces were available only after you've done the arcs or something, or I did them to unlock the TF. Anyway, it was a zone that I just had to hold my nose and get through for the sake of the rewards.

[tidge]

I have to now add Void Sanction: Castle. The pathing of the kidnapped Paragon Protector is so bugged. I restarted the mission 4 times before finally just abandoning the arc because the Protector either got stuck in walls/ceiling or simply rubber-bands without following me.