Super Strength changes & proliferation to Scrappers and Stalkers

[Vindicator]

On 10/15/2020 at 9:22 AM, Vanden said:

I wanted to get these ideas I had for Super Strength off my chest before it gets its official Homecoming Looking-At™ and it becomes a moot point.

/jranger

Edited October 22, 2020 by Vindicator

[Myrmidon]

Nerfing Rage and still keeping the crash? That might have to be a vote of “No Confidence” from me.

[Vanden]

A straight buff to Rage is a pipe dream, and any other buffs to the set to address its shortcomings (like the complete lack of AoE before the 30s) are going to be extremely iffy if no change is made at all.

[Myrmidon]

Super Strength needs a rebuild from the ground up. We all know it, even the Rage Junkies. It was close in Page 4 and I suspect that the Captain will give it a another go at some point.

Edited October 23, 2020 by Myrmidon

[Vanden]

It really doesn't. And it's not like they could get away with a from-the-ground-up rework; Super Strength is the most popular Tanker secondary by an enormous margin, and quite possibly the most popular Brute primary among Brutes that aren't rolled just to farm. If you think the Rage arguments are bad now, imagine how those players would revolt if they got the rug pulled out from under them and had their characters replaced by something that plays completely differently.

[Gobbledigook]

On 10/16/2020 at 9:17 AM, Solarverse said:

Why not just make Hand Clap an AoE Knock Down instead of changing Hurl in to one?

Personally I would just turn Handclap into a cone attack that does damage and stuns rather than knockdown. 10-20ft range 120 degree arc. Giving SS set a cone attack it lacks that other sets have.

 

Leave Hurl as a single target attack but improve the DPA considerably. Hurl is a nice animation and it would be good to see it used more and not just dismissed as a badattack and dps loss.

 

Remove the crash from single rage and apply it to double rage only. Adjust numbers of rage where needed. Lower to a 50-60% buff if necessary.

 

Improve jabs numbers a little. 

 

I think those small fixes would be enough without changing the set drastically.

 

 

Edited October 23, 2020 by Gobbledegook

[Solarverse]

5 hours ago, Gobbledegook said:

Personally I would just turn Handclap into a cone attack that does damage and stuns rather than knockdown. 10-20ft range 120 degree arc. Giving SS set a cone attack it lacks that other sets have.

 

Leave Hurl as a single target attack but improve the DPA considerably. Hurl is a nice animation and it would be good to see it used more and not just dismissed as a badattack and dps loss.

 

Remove the crash from single rage and apply it to double rage only. Adjust numbers of rage where needed. Lower to a 50-60% buff if necessary.

 

Improve jabs numbers a little. 

 

I think those small fixes would be enough without changing the set drastically.

 

 

Or a targeted AoE with a short distance like Fault.

[Gobbledigook]

5 hours ago, Solarverse said:

Or a targeted AoE with a short distance like Fault.

That would be 2 AoE attacks, I think that would be too much in some people's view.

 

I think a cone would suit Handclap better anyway,  hitting mobs infront of the directed Handclap shockwave. A bit like Hulk vs Abomination in the 2008 movie.

[Solarverse]

1 minute ago, Gobbledegook said:

That would be 2 AoE attacks, I think that would be too much in some people's view.

 

I think a cone would suit Handclap better anyway,  hitting mobs infront of the directed Handclap shockwave. A bit like Hulk vs Abomination in the 2008 movie.

Fault does no damage. It's target required AoE, slightly ranged and adds a stun. Whether or not it does damage wouldn't matter to me personally either way. Just wanted to clear that up a tad.

[Gobbledigook]

1 minute ago, Solarverse said:

Fault does no damage. It's target required AoE, slightly ranged and adds a stun. Whether or not it does damage wouldn't matter to me personally either way. Just wanted to clear that up a tad.

Ok. I just thought other sets have a cone damage attack and HC could become that cone....or not lol.

[Biff Pow]

17 hours ago, Myrmidon said:

Super Strength needs a rebuild from the ground up. We all know it, even the Rage Junkies. It was close in Page 4 and I suspect that the Captain will give it a another go at some point.

I wouldn't go that far, and I'd hate to see a basic power like Super Strength get turned into combo-building or bonus-stacking like newer sets.

[ironjoe]

I just found this thread after giving my own try at how I would redo things in Super Strength. My biggest thing is I know Rage will have to change no matter what we do and I like my toggle approach. I think it would be easier to balance the damage that way while still giving it a crazy factor by increasing the more your surrounded.

[Player2]

Get rid of Rage.  It is not thematically appropriate to super strength.  It is specifically an Incredible Hulk thing, who is yes, possessing super strength... but pretty much every other super strength character in comics and other mediums --that are not derivatives of the Hulk-- does not rage.

 

Replace rage with a standard Build Up and bring the set's base damage in line with the others.

[Vanden]

Are you really gonna claim it's not thematically appropriate for any player character using the Super Strength power set?

[Player2]

34 minutes ago, Vanden said:

Are you really gonna claim it's not thematically appropriate for any player character using the Super Strength power set?

No, that isn't what I'm claiming.  I'm stating that Rage is not thematically appropriate for Super Strength.  Don't spin what I'm saying to make it sound like something else.

Maybe what we need is two powersets.  A straight up Super Strength set with modified numbers to reflect using Build Up instead of having a 2 minute boost with Rage, and then a Rage Strength set for those who want raging heroes or villains.

 

BUT... as a power set...

 

Captain Marvel:  Super strength, doesn't rage

Colossus:  Super strength, doesn't rage

Emma Frost (diamond form):  Super strength, doesn't rage

Iron Man:  Super strength, doesn't rage

Luke Cage:  Super strength, doesn't rage

Martian Manhunter:  Super strength, doesn't rage

Molly Hayes:  Super strength, doesn't rage

Rogue:  Super strength, doesn't rage

Shazam:  Super strength, doesn't rage

Silver Surfer:  Super strength, doesn't rage

Spider-Man:  Super strength, doesn't rage

Supergirl:  Super strength, doesn't rage

Superman:  Super strength, doesn't rage

The Thing:  Super strength, doesn't rage

Wonder Man:  Super strength, doesn't rage

Wonder Woman:  Super strength, doesn't rage

 

...and so many more.

 

The problem is if one chooses to forego the Rage power because it's not appropriate to their character, they would be gimping their damage.  Rage is necessary for the powerset to be useful, meaning that the power does not belong there.  It belongs in a set that is thematically appropriate to.

[Vanden]

1 minute ago, Player2 said:

No, that isn't what I'm claiming.  I'm stating that Rage is not thematically appropriate for Super Strength.  Don't spin what I'm saying to make it sound like something else.

That sounds like exactly what you're saying. Rage isn't thematic for Super Strength, so take it away from every single Super Strength character in the game.

 

Regardless, it's a weak argument. The only part that can be argued to not fit is the name. What Rage actually does is perfectly thematic; the theme of the set is that your character is superhumanly strong, and a long-lasting, easily permable damage buff is exactly how that would be portrayed with CoH's mechanics. Even the visuals work for it: Super Strength attacks make your limbs glow when you swing them for attacks, and Rage makes your whole body glow, like it's taking that aesthetic to the next level. If it had a different name this argument couldn't even exist.

[Player2]

1 minute ago, Vanden said:

That sounds like exactly what you're saying. Rage isn't thematic for Super Strength, so take it away from every single Super Strength character in the game.

 

Regardless, it's a weak argument. The only part that can be argued to not fit is the name. What Rage actually does is perfectly thematic; the theme of the set is that your character is superhumanly strong, and a long-lasting, easily permable damage buff is exactly how that would be portrayed with CoH's mechanics. Even the visuals work for it: Super Strength attacks make your limbs glow when you swing them for attacks, and Rage makes your whole body glow, like it's taking that aesthetic to the next level. If it had a different name this argument couldn't even exist.

None of what you say is good.  Look at all of the super strength characters I pointed out... which of them are just sort of super strong and then get stronger for short durations as their bodies get supercharged with power?  Maybe a few have at times under very limited specific circumstances.  Wonder Woman was retconned into a "rage" state, but that was a recent development.  Your argument to justify rage is weak and ineffective.

 

Rage is a very specific effect that suits a narrow group of characters.  Your attempt to stretch it into something else just doesn't work, and the fact that people continue to complain about the rage crash says that there are people who aren't happy with the power anyway.

 

So what if my idea takes rage away from everyone.  It's a bad power and you should feel bad for trying to defend it.

[Biff Pow]

Take Rage out of Super Strength and Brutes still have Fury, which is the same concept. And everyone has access to Rage Inspirations, which is the same concept.

[Vanden]

5 minutes ago, Player2 said:

None of what you say is good.  Look at all of the super strength characters I pointed out... which of them are just sort of super strong and then get stronger for short durations as their bodies get supercharged with power?

Rage is not a short duration buff. It lasts 120 seconds and is clearly meant to be perma'd. All of those characters are supercharged with power at all times, because they have super strength.

[Haijinx]

We do the examples every time under some weird assumption that COH lives by Marvel and DC rules.  

 

It is instead its own internally consistent comic universe. 

 

Also its a game, so its required to be more structured. 

 

Also Rage is only a game mechanic, its not necessary for the character to actually be angry to use it.

 

In your head canon your character can be thinking about flowers, rainbows and butterflies and gain increased strength for 2 minutes.  

[Player2]

1 minute ago, Vanden said:

All of those characters are supercharged with power at all times, because they have super strength.

And Rage causes a crash which hits hard with a sudden lack of damage and other penalties... NONE of which all those super strength characters are afflicted with because they are super strong all the time, not building up with power to maintain that strength.

[Dragon Crush]

12 minutes ago, Player2 said:

None of what you say is good.  Look at all of the super strength characters I pointed out... which of them are just sort of super strong and then get stronger for short durations as their bodies get supercharged with power?  Maybe a few have at times under very limited specific circumstances.  Wonder Woman was retconned into a "rage" state, but that was a recent development.  Your argument to justify rage is weak and ineffective.

 

Rage is a very specific effect that suits a narrow group of characters.  Your attempt to stretch it into something else just doesn't work, and the fact that people continue to complain about the rage crash says that there are people who aren't happy with the power anyway.

 

So what if my idea takes rage away from everyone.  It's a bad power and you should feel bad for trying to defend it.

 

It really sounds like you want to take rage out mostly because of the name, and seems like one of the weaker arguments for getting rid of it.  If anything, your idea should be the offshoot set of enhanced strength, not gut how super strength works now and make a new set "for angry toons".

And for you saying the power boost doesn't fit super strong characters, Emma (diamond form vs normal squishy self) Colossus (Metal vs flesh) and Ironman (Hulkbuster vs standard suit vs stealth suit) Superman/girl (just fighting someone who can match them vs the kid gloves they normally wear) all have boosted modes, and just about any super strong character I can recall would occasionally dig deep for a burst of strength over what they normally display, though I suppose that could be argued as being closer to build up vs rage.

 

And adding in, that's not to say arguments for altering rage don't exist, but I am saying the name is a very weak one.

Edited November 29, 2020 by Dragon Crush

[Haijinx]

3 minutes ago, Player2 said:

And Rage causes a crash which hits hard with a sudden lack of damage and other penalties... NONE of which all those super strength characters are afflicted with because they are super strong all the time, not building up with power to maintain that strength.

Nearly all of those get tired at plot relevant times.

 

Not that those character from non COX universes are actually relevant.

[Player2]

Just now, Dragon Crush said:

And for you saying the power boost doesn't fit super strong characters, Emma (diamond form vs normal squishy self) Colossus (Metal vs flesh) and Ironman (Hulkbuster vs standard suit vs stealth suit) Superman/girl (just fighting someone who can match them vs the kid gloves they normally wear) all have boosted modes, and just about any super strong character I can recall would occasionally dig deep for a burst of strength over what they normally display, though I suppose that could be argued as being closer to build up vs rage.

Emma, Colossus, Iron Man...  these are people who do not have super strength until they activate their power up.  They're have normal strength until they transform into organic diamond or steel or strap into their powersuit or whatever.  That isn't what the Super Strength power set with Rage does, though.  Super Strength is always strong.  Once they activate their power, then they're super strong... not raging or boosted to even more super strength.

 

[Player2]

Just now, Haijinx said:

Nearly all of those get tired at plot relevant times.

 

Not that those character from non COX universes are actually relevant.

So do all non-super strength characters, but no other damage powerset is hit the way Super Strength is.