Super Strength changes & proliferation to Scrappers and Stalkers

[Vanden]

4 minutes ago, Bopper said:

I liked the presentation. One thing I'll say, what you proposed for rage doesn't sound like a proc. It sounds like a 40% damage buff that simply isn't stackable (replaceable, really).

 

However, I do like the idea of a proc similar to Toxins or Assault Hybrid. Given that SS has a tax on itself due to Rage, and you are nerfing Rage, I would suggest an actual 40% damage proc that uses the design formula (up to 20s base recharge, maybe 25s). This would also be considered a buff as it offers an avenue for SS to go beyond the damage cap, effectively. 

Well it's a proc that has a 100% chance to go off, like new Gauntlet. I think Toxins is actually the same.

 

I don't really know the math behind doublehit and Radial Assault Hybrid, are you saying that powers with large recharge penalties like APP AoEs would get disproportionate boosts from global damage procs if they weren't capped?

[Tsuko]

On 10/15/2020 at 3:22 PM, Vanden said:

Powers

Jab

• Now takes Defense Buff IOs

 

if only... :x

[Bopper]

57 minutes ago, Vanden said:

Well it's a proc that has a 100% chance to go off, like new Gauntlet. I think Toxins is actually the same.

 

I don't really know the math behind doublehit and Radial Assault Hybrid, are you saying that powers with large recharge penalties like APP AoEs would get disproportionate boosts from global damage procs if they weren't capped?

The math is such that the proc damage uses the damage formula, and ignores whatever damage the actual power does. So in the case of Super Strengtg this would be good since a power like Knockout Blow does damage that a 20s recharge power would do, but the proc would use the 25s recharge that the power actually uses. Toxins does this, Assault Radial, and Sentinel Opportunity does it this way. There might be others.

 

There are ways to do it your way too, you would have to add an effect to every power, similar to Fiery Embrace, and Global Chance Mods would trigger it. So it's less of a proc and more of an added effect with a percent chance set to 0% and it changes to 100% when rage is active.

[Leogunner]

19 hours ago, Monos King said:

Very enriched way of saying I'm using a power that doesn't hit that hard because I like its effects lol

 

This is cool, and I've been trying to see stuff like the smashing dmg proc anywhere for a while. Wonder how there would be objections to this.

It was a suggestion I made in the past.  I personally feel that Rage should only boost SS attacks with said smashing damage proc.  Stacking it wouldn't really be effectual besides +ToHit and there wouldn't be any negatives.

2 hours ago, Sarrate said:

I think you're mistaken on the last bullet - in the long run, Rage's 10s damage debuff outweighs any advantages of stacking Rage:

 

 I was always under the assumption that SS's powers (everything but Rage) sucked BECAUSE Rage was too good and no one would just agree to nerf it and fix the rest of the powers because it would result in a net decrease when taking into account stacking Rage.  Ultimately, if Rage added damage to your attack rather giving you +dmg stats, that overall increases the set's maximum performance (i.e. in a situation were +damage buffs are used).  I feel that would be the overall trade off of reducing the effect of personally stacked Rage vs maximum performance if Rage isn't contributing to the damage cap.

 

If the +smashing damage were also affected by outside +dmg buffs would make the overall non-stacking nature even more beneficial.

[Leogunner]

2 minutes ago, Bopper said:

There are ways to do it your way too, you would have to add an effect to every power, similar to Fiery Embrace, and Global Chance Mods would trigger it. So it's less of a proc and more of an added effect with a percent chance set to 0% and it changes to 100% when rage is active.

Just limit it to SS powers and be done.

[Bopper]

5 minutes ago, Leogunner said:

Just limit it to SS powers and be done.

Thats easily doable. What you do is create the 40% scaled damage effect and set it to 0% chance percent (so it never fires, normally). Then you give that effect a tag, let's call it "SSRage". Then you give Rage an effect that grants 100% to a Global Chance Mod tagged as "SSRage". That will give all effects with that effect tag a 100% increase to its chance to trigger. This globalchancemod would be given a 120s duration and you would set its stackability to Replace, although stacking it wouldn't matter as a 200% chance to fire is no different than a 100% chance to fire 

Edited October 17, 2020 by Bopper

[Bopper]

That solution, however, means Rage proc only boosts SS attacks, meaning powers like Cross Punch or epics would not benefit from Rage (other than the small damage buff). To be able to buff non-SS powers, you have to make the buff a true proc that gets attached to all your attacks for a limited duration (which is how powers like Toxins works)

[Leogunner]

1 minute ago, Bopper said:

That solution, however, means Rage proc only boosts SS attacks, meaning powers like Cross Punch or epics would not benefit from Rage (other than the small damage buff). To be able to buff non-SS powers, you have to make the buff a true proc that gets attached to all your attacks for a limited duration (which is how powers like Toxins works)

I feel that should be a trade-off of its duration.  It is unflavorful for a SS character not to benefit their Cross Punch but it's more flavorful that their Ball Lightning isn't affected since that's not really a physical attack that would benefit from someone exploiting their physical strength.  It also give sets like Dark Melee more of a niche with Soul Drain to boost such extra-powerset attacks but requiring the limitation of needing targets to feed said boost.

[Vanden]

Well it’s more of a nerf than I’d been looking for for Rage, but it wouldn’t be the end of the world (power set). Might open up more opportunities to buff the set elsewhere.

 

Having thought about it more, I think the Fiery Embrace method would be the better one. It's a lot more work to add an "only when using Rage" effect to every pool attack and damaging power in armor sets than to just code one global proc, but it's less disruptive to any existing characters that rely on pool powers. Plus, Homecoming has made a habit of doing things the right way, even if the easier way would be a whole lot faster.

Edited October 17, 2020 by Vanden

[Xanatos]

If you could not reinvent a beloved powerset that doesn't need changing, that'd be great.

 

With that said, if you're going to fix anything, it'd be the rage crash for sure. (By removing it, and lowering the buffs by whatever % you need to in order to maintain the same DPS as before. Players won't be any better/worse off, but they won't have to stand around doing nothing for 8% of the time they're in combat.)

Edited October 17, 2020 by Xanatos

[Supertanker]

Yeah, Super Strength is a popular set so any big changes could just upset players. And it's such a classic and common superpower that I think it should be kept as simple as possible, no gimmicks.

[Vanden]

Another alternative to turning Rage into a Fiery Embrace-type effect, they could add a new entry for every power called, say, Damage Factor, that's just the damage scale of the power written down in the power's database entry. Then any global proc that's meant to work off the damage a power does (like Radial Hybrid Assault, or my proposed Rage) could use that entry instead of calculating what the damage should be through the recharge. That'd make any global procs easier to implement going forward, and it might actually be less work than making a second Fiery Embrace-type effect, since it seems like that process could be automated with some kind of script. You run the script and have it generate Damage Factor entries for every power, then you just go through all the powers that don't follow the formula and change their Damage Factor entries by hand; it's a much shorter list.

 

Also, if Damage Factor were listed in the Info window for powers, you could see the damage scale of a power more easily.

[Infinitum]

I know this will be unpopular, but in the actual thematics of rage it kinda doesnt fit with how you would think a SS rage would work.

 

Rage is the pivotal power of SS

 

Here is how it should work in the crazy muddled neurons of my brain.

 

What if rage did two things.  Make it a toggle, On jab, punch, and haymaker it decreased animation time - like thanos multi punching the hulk. Which using those powers charge up a mechanic for ko blow and foot stomp and that it turn gave them more power and radius for foot stomp and splash damage for ko blow like superman punching dark seid and destroying a building with the shockwave collateral blast.

 

Furthermore there is no crash, but the longer you stay in rage endurance cost increases - kinda like reverse ageless core.

[Haijinx]

Forum gridlock will prevent any substantive changes to Rage.

 

 

 

 

[Sarrate]

15 hours ago, Leogunner said:

I was always under the assumption that SS's powers (everything but Rage) sucked BECAUSE Rage was too good and no one would just agree to nerf it and fix the rest of the powers because it would result in a net decrease when taking into account stacking Rage. 

Not to disparage the original devs, but I don't think that's the case. The reason SS powers aren't that great is because of low DPA, and the devs didn't even consider animation time as a balancing factor, only recharge. That's why there were so many attacks with short recharges, low damage, and long animations (Barb Swipe, Storm Kick (I think?)) or just excessively long animations in general (Crane Kick, Hurl, Hurl Boulder, etc.). The fact it turned out the way it did was just a happy accident.

[Vanden]

24 minutes ago, Sarrate said:

Not to disparage the original devs, but I don't think that's the case. The reason SS powers aren't that great is because of low DPA, and the devs didn't even consider animation time as a balancing factor, only recharge. That's why there were so many attacks with short recharges, low damage, and long animations (Barb Swipe, Storm Kick (I think?)) or just excessively long animations in general (Crane Kick, Hurl, Hurl Boulder, etc.). The fact it turned out the way it did was just a happy accident.

I think there's actually kernel of truth to that old belief. This is going way back in the game's history, like to year 1, but back then, the common understanding of Tanker and Scrapper melee sets was that Scrapper attacks were generally faster, but weaker, while Tanker attacks were generally slower, but stronger. Since the ATs didn't actually share any melee sets, this was done by just having the Scrapper sets have attacks that recharged faster, with correspondingly lowered damage scale. Most sets have had revamps since then, but you can still see that in a few powers. Old Scrapper-only sets like Spines, Katana, and Martial Arts have their first two attacks recharge in 3s and 5s, while old Tanker-only sets like Stone Melee, War Mace, and Battle Axe have their first two attacks recharge in 4s and 8s. It wasn't universally true, of course, but the pattern was there. Now, Super Strength's first two attacks recharge in 2s and 4s, and Haymaker recharges in 8s, where most other Tanker sets have their 3rd bread and butter ST attack recharge in 10 or more seconds. Essentially, all three of Super Strength's main ST attacks are basically a tier lower in strength than the equivalent powers in other sets. This is why Jab is so bad, it's essentially, by design, in a sort of zeroth tier of attack.

 

And of course, Knockout Blow has that 5 second penalty to its recharge time.

 

Edited October 17, 2020 by Vanden

[Infinitum]

21 minutes ago, Sarrate said:

Not to disparage the original devs, but I don't think that's the case. The reason SS powers aren't that great is because of low DPA, and the devs didn't even consider animation time as a balancing factor, only recharge. That's why there were so many attacks with short recharges, low damage, and long animations (Barb Swipe, Storm Kick (I think?)) or just excessively long animations in general (Crane Kick, Hurl, Hurl Boulder, etc.). The fact it turned out the way it did was just a happy accident.

Thats how original ET got overlooked for so long.

[Sarrate]

50 minutes ago, Vanden said:

I think there's actually kernel of truth to that old belief. This is going way back in the game's history, like to year 1, but back then, the common understanding of Tanker and Scrapper melee sets was that Scrapper attacks were generally faster, but weaker, while Tanker attacks were generally slower, but stronger. Since the ATs didn't actually share any melee sets, this was done by just having the Scrapper sets have attacks that recharged faster, with correspondingly lowered damage scale. Most sets have had revamps since then, but you can still see that in a few powers. Old Scrapper-only sets like Spines, Katana, and Martial Arts have their first two attacks recharge in 3s and 5s, while old Tanker-only sets like Stone Melee, War Mace, and Battle Axe have their first two attacks recharge in 4s and 8s. It wasn't universally true, of course, but the pattern was there. Now, Super Strength's first two attacks recharge in 2s and 4s, and Haymaker recharges in 8s, where most other Tanker sets have their 3rd bread and butter ST attack recharge in 10 or more seconds. Essentially, all three of Super Strength's main ST attacks are basically a tier lower in strength than the equivalent powers in other sets. This is why Jab is so bad, it's essentially, by design, in a sort of zeroth tier of attack.

 

And of course, Knockout Blow has that 5 second penalty to its recharge time.

I can't believe I hadn't ever considered it from that perspective before, but that does sound completely plausible. Huh!

 

44 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

Thats how original ET got overlooked for so long.

Well, it does have the self damage penalty (which while it won't kill you, does average out to a non-trival amount of lost health over time). I think one of the driving reasons it finally got changed was PvP. (I never played EM and only dabbled in PvP with friends, so I can't speak to that point with authority.)

[Infinitum]

33 minutes ago, Sarrate said:

I can't believe I hadn't ever considered it from that perspective before, but that does sound completely plausible. Huh!

 

Well, it does have the self damage penalty (which while it won't kill you, does average out to a non-trival amount of lost health over time). I think one of the driving reasons it finally got changed was PvP. (I never played EM and only dabbled in PvP with friends, so I can't speak to that point with authority.)

You were on the live forums weren't you.  I might be mistaken, but do you remember back in the day running pylon tests with my EM tank with me?

 

Mainly because nobody believed my numbers were so good, you checked them out - I demonstrated them for you?

 

If you don't remember, it's mistaken identity.  That was a good many years ago.

[Ry]

Personally Super Strength on Stalkers/Scrappers sounds like a fun (but incredibly unbalanced and silly) idea.

 

The floodgates have already kind of been opened for Stalkers already, since they now have Shield Defence and Fire Aura. >_>

 

I'm not a balance expert but I honestly believe some sets need to stay on some ATs to make them stand out a bit and keep some illusion of balance. Maybe I'm just old fashioned.

[Sarrate]

24 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

You were on the live forums weren't you.  I might be mistaken, but do you remember back in the day running pylon tests with my EM tank with me?

 

Mainly because nobody believed my numbers were so good, you checked them out - I demonstrated them for you?

 

If you don't remember, it's mistaken identity.  That was a good many years ago.

Yep, I was around pre-snap, and even pre-I4 (so pre-ED / GDN), but I'm not the one you were demonstrating to. Mistaken identity, I'm afraid!

[Leogunner]

11 minutes ago, Ry said:

I'm not a balance expert but I honestly believe some sets need to stay on some ATs to make them stand out a bit and keep some illusion of balance. Maybe I'm just old fashioned.

We can worry about that after Stalker gets TW.  Then I'm in agreement, some sets might be better left untouched lol

[Solarverse]

17 hours ago, Vanden said:

Well it’s more of a nerf than I’d been looking for for Rage, but it wouldn’t be the end of the world (power set). Might open up more opportunities to buff the set elsewhere.

 

Having thought about it more, I think the Fiery Embrace method would be the better one. It's a lot more work to add an "only when using Rage" effect to every pool attack and damaging power in armor sets than to just code one global proc, but it's less disruptive to any existing characters that rely on pool powers. Plus, Homecoming has made a habit of doing things the right way, even if the easier way would be a whole lot faster.

I'm going to think outside the box for a moment and all I ask is just think on it.

What if Rage was changed to be a toggle, and we turned it in to a Fury Mini-me? I mean, Rage is something straight from the pages of The Hulk...the more angry Hulk gets, the more strength he gains. If we changed Rage to be a toggle and gave it the same (with numbers tweaked) function that Fury has, I personally think not only would it fit much better for theme, but functionality as well. If need be, give it a Defense crash every so often, but the toggle stays up.

This solves two issues, it fixes the crash everyone always takes issue with and the "fury" effect from it can be tweaked for balance at any time fairly easily.

[Supertanker]

13 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

What if Rage was changed to be a toggle, and we turned it in to a Fury Mini-me? I mean, Rage is something straight from the pages of The Hulk...the more angry Hulk gets, the more strength he gains. If we changed Rage to be a toggle and gave it the same (with numbers tweaked) function that Fury has, I personally think not only would it fit much better for theme, but functionality as well. If need be, give it a Defense crash every so often, but the toggle stays up.

This is why I'm fine with dumping Rage altogether- Fury took its concept.

[Vanden]

I changed the damage of a KO Blow crit in my Scrapper/Stalker proliferation proposal from 25% more damage to 35% more damage, and I think the reason is worth explaining. I had it at 25% more damage because Total Focus on Stalkers, another scale 3.56 attack, also criticals for 25% more damage. But I was mistaken there; it turns out TF actually criticals for ~28% more damage. But TF also recharges in 20 seconds, not 25 like KO Blow, and it's also in the same set as Energy Transfer, an even stronger single-target attack at scale 4.56 damage. Since KO Blow for Scrappers and Stalkers under my treatment would a) Not be in a set with Rage and b) Not be in a set with an even stronger ST attack, I felt like it would be safe to let it crit for slightly more. Since the recharge of KO Blow is 25% longer than TF, I just made the crit damage 25% more (28 x 1.25 = 35). It's possible that could be allowed to be even higher, and the 50% more damage crit on Foot Stomp might not be necessary, either; I'm just erring on the side of caution. It's easy to get gun-shy when looking at these kinds of numbers in the hands of Scrappers and Stalkers.

Edited October 19, 2020 by Vanden