Focused Feedback: Energy Melee Revamp

[siolfir]

8 minutes ago, Vanden said:

It does a full crit for its Combo Level 0 damage, which is significantly below where the standard damage formula would put a power with a 25s recharge, or even a 20s recharge.

Crushing Uppercut also has the endurance cost of a 15 second recharge power and damage of a 17.625 sec power, so it just ignores the standard damage formula in every way possible.

 

While you're going on about CU, it copied Knockout Blow's recharge (that was the "comparable power" pointed to). Knockout Blow has the endurance cost and damage of a 20 second recharge power; 25 seconds would be scale 4.36 damage and 22.672 endurance.

 

 

 

[BrandX]

1 hour ago, Wavicle said:

Crushing Uppercut costs endurance and has more than twice the recharge of ET.

Yes, but before the changes it was 20 second recharge, cost endurance to use, cost life to use, and still didn't crit.

 

Stalkers had EM.  And Crushing Impact at level 3, was pretty close to ET in damage with ET having a longer animation.  CU did have longer Recharge and End Cost.  However, CU didn't have the loss of life aspect.

 

I'm happy with the EM changes (not happy with pairing it with Regen, like I REALLY want to though 😞 ), that said, the comment still goes back to "Well Scrappers/Stalkers have a way, but Tankers don't" which, truthfully, Tankers and Brutes have more HP to deal with the loss of life better than Scrappers/Stalkers do.

 

I've been fine with the 28% Crit Damage.  I just said Scrappers would be more than willing to take the full life loss all the time for full crit damage 😛  When someone said Tankers don't have a way to regain life like Scrappers/Stalkers do.

[ScarySai]

9 hours ago, BrandX said:

Oh, I promise you, Scrappers and Stalkers would gladly give up the heal for crits doing the damage they are supposed to be doing and not just the 28% 😛

Speak for yourself.

 

ET was strong before it crit at all, now it's very, VERY nice. 

 

I disagree with Powerhouse on a lot of things, but I will say it here: He absolutely nailed energy melee's overhaul and should get praise for it.

[Tsuko]

38 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

Speak for yourself.

 

ET was strong before it crit at all, now it's very, VERY nice. 

 

I disagree with Powerhouse on a lot of things, but I will say it here: He absolutely nailed energy melee's overhaul and should get praise for it.

100% same.

 

 

Edited November 6, 2020 by Tsuko

[BrandX]

1 hour ago, ScarySai said:

Speak for yourself.

 

ET was strong before it crit at all, now it's very, VERY nice. 

 

I disagree with Powerhouse on a lot of things, but I will say it here: He absolutely nailed energy melee's overhaul and should get praise for it.

 

So, you're saying, if we got all the changes that are on beta now, with the only difference is, ET crits for dull damage, but doesn't heal you, you'd say no to that?

 

I'd say you're in the minority on that.

 

And I like the changes to EM.  Fast ET back?  Yes please!  Losing it for that gawd awful charge animation killed it for me on live.  I got over it on HC, but have been waiting for it to come to Scrappers, because I just don't enjoy Brutes as much as Scrappers.  Crit > Fury for me 🙂

[ScarySai]

48 minutes ago, BrandX said:

So, you're saying, if we got all the changes that are on beta now, with the only difference is, ET crits for dull damage, but doesn't heal you, you'd say no to that?

Yes, because you're never going to get that without major compromises elsewhere. You're out of your mind if you think they'll ever add that.

[BrandX]

13 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

Yes, because you're never going to get that without major compromises elsewhere. You're out of your mind if you think they'll ever add that.

And where did I say anything about it?  Someone complained that Stalkers/Scrappers get to heal from ET, while Tankers (and Brutes) don't.  I said it was a benefit of Criticals, since they don't get full crits, and that Scrappers/Stalkers would gladly give up the heal for full crit.

 

The fact that such a thing might lower the damage is besides the point, as that's not what the changes have been.   Going with the current changes and then giving up heal for full crit is all that was mentioned.  You're just adding more changes to the subject which wasn't the point.

[Wavicle]

4 minutes ago, BrandX said:

And where did I say anything about it?  Someone complained that Stalkers/Scrappers get to heal from ET, while Tankers (and Brutes) don't.  I said it was a benefit of Criticals, since they don't get full crits, and that Scrappers/Stalkers would gladly give up the heal for full crit.

 

The fact that such a thing might lower the damage is besides the point, as that's not what the changes have been.   Going with the current changes and then giving up heal for full crit is all that was mentioned.  You're just adding more changes to the subject which wasn't the point.

The choice isn’t between full crit and partial with heal. The choice is between partial with heal and partial with nothing.

[BrandX]

2 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

The choice isn’t between full crit and partial with heal. The choice is between partial with heal and partial with nothing.

That wasn't what the reply was to, was it?  It reply was to giving Tankers a heal with their ET.

[Monos King]

1 hour ago, BrandX said:

That wasn't what the reply was to, was it?  It reply was to giving Tankers a heal with their ET.

Yeah they're misunderstanding you pretty hard. All BrandX is saying is that a lot of scrappers/stalks would go full ET crit if they could. Because we like damage. I am one of them, and someone else above in the thread was also, and this was a point made to jestingly comment when Azra noted that ET healing was something Scrapps/Stalks enjoy. It wasn't that relevant, but it was not to propose that Energy Transfer should get a full crit to any extent. We all know that's impossible. This misconception is bringing us a bit off topic, so let's not continue.

Edited November 7, 2020 by Monos King

[Gobbledigook]

11 hours ago, Monos King said:

Yeah they're misunderstanding you pretty hard. All BrandX is saying is that a lot of scrappers/stalks would go full ET crit if they could. Because we like damage. I am one of them, and someone else above in the thread was also, and this was a point made to jestingly comment when Azra noted that ET healing was something Scrapps/Stalks enjoy. It wasn't that relevant, but it was not to propose that Energy Transfer should get a full crit to any extent. We all know that's impossible. This misconception is bringing us a bit off topic, so let's not continue.

I think it went off topic long before.

[TheEmpyrean]

Quick question for those who know more maths than me--how did Brutes do compared to other ATs?  ET sure didn't seem popular for Brutes before.  Are the changes as good for Brutes as they are for the other ATs?

[aethereal]

48 minutes ago, TheEmpyrean said:

Quick question for those who know more maths than me--how did Brutes do compared to other ATs?  ET sure didn't seem popular for Brutes before.  Are the changes as good for Brutes as they are for the other ATs?

They should be solid for brutes.  Brutes get the full benefit of fury for energy transfer and total focus, so that's nice for them.  They get the better AoE and option for fast energy transfer and improved animation times.  There may be some possibilities for scrappers/stalkers to do some advanced stuff with critical manipulation, and brutes will never get two fast energy transfers on a row, but it's a bummer for scraps/stalks to only get quarter-power crits in terms of damage, and brute damage should be ferocious.

[0th Power]

I have read/skimmed through the 48 pages here and I have now been able to test it for myself.

 

Lv 50 Tanker Inv/EM

-fully IO'd 

-Did not respec into power crash

 

The new changes were definitely an improvement.  It did take more effort in choosing what power to pick.  I ended up using slow ET a couple times due to using barrage.  I plan on respecing into power crash and see what other thoughts I'll have as far as the tanker goes.

 

 

Lv 30/40 Scrapper EM/SR

-SOs only (the upgrade SO feature kicks ass)

-Ran the 1st mission of manticore once at lv 30 once at 40

 

at 30, I was missing a lot due to fighting +4s and 5s.  But it felt like the gimmick was not much of a problem (Didn't have ET yet or barrage).  It was something i could ignore and just go punch.  We reset the TF and I bumped up to lv 40 so we could fight +0/1s and although the TF went much smoother, I was having to think more about what power choice I was using.  There were a few times that I ended up using slow energy transfer because of it.  

 

Initial thoughts (I plan on testing some more): It is an improvement, but its not what I really wanted.  Kinda like getting socks for Christmas as a kid, you got a present, but its socks....  I don't like to always have total focus proceed energy transfer, but if this it what it is, I guess ill take it.

 

If yall are still taking suggestions:

make energy transfer fast w/o stored energy

Move the energy release to whirling hands and give it an extra stun chance or a knockdown

 

[Hew]

1 hour ago, 0th Power said:

I have read/skimmed through the 48 pages here and I have now been able to test it for myself.

 

...

 

at 30, I was missing a lot due to fighting +4s and 5s. 

 

Props for testing! But, on sos I am pretty sure +4 and +5 content is not terribly useful testing. 

 

The follow on when you reset it to 0/1 however is MUCH more useful. 🙂

 

Regarding slow ET, there are several chains earlier that use fast AND slow ET in a single chain. The short of that testing was slow ET is actually still a really good power.

[Azera]

On 11/6/2020 at 12:00 AM, Tsuko said:

 

 

Solo Imperious Task Force +4x8 no inspirations, no temporary powers, no Amplifiers and enemy buffed (+50% dmg / +50% accuracy) :

 

I choosed Shield defence cause it's a well known armor set without Endurance management powers and no self heal, for the very reason of ET nature and to check if the endurance drain was well balance.

 

Can you please post your build? SD/EM is exactly what I am looking forward to playin on live. I am surprised to hear you survived the AV's solo with +4/+8. I'm not able to do that on a shield tank even with an attack set with a healing mechanic. I'm not challenging your statement, just really surprised that you can do it while playing a set that damages you at the same time. I freely admit I am not a strong creator of builds, and would love to take a peek at yours to see where I can improve mine.

[Azera]

On 11/6/2020 at 1:51 PM, BrandX said:

 

That wasn't what the reply was about.  The reply was to the fact that the poster thought Tankers should have a way to heal back the damage, because Scrappers and Stalkers have the ability.  However, the ability to heal it back, is due to not having full crit.  

 

If you are referring to my post, then it appears you may have misunderstood. I did not ask for Tanks to get any health back. I only asked for the damage penalty to be overturned only on ET attacks that were charged with EF, which would essentially equate to receiving damage every other ET attack. It is my opinion, that this one benefit would be nice form tanks/brutes, since stalkers and scrappers get two. (the chance to heal and a second stack of EF) I don't see how that is game breaking or a negative impact to stalkers/scrappers.

 

Honestly, I don’t know why so many people go out of their way to keep other archetypes/powersets down? For example, I’m fully in agreement that stalkers and scrappers should get the full crit because that is the benefit of their archetype. It doesn’t bother me one bit that they can pump out more damage than my tank.

[Tsuko]

56 minutes ago, Azera said:

Can you please post your build? SD/EM is exactly what I am looking forward to playin on live. I am surprised to hear you survived the AV's solo with +4/+8. I'm not able to do that on a shield tank even with an attack set with a healing mechanic. I'm not challenging your statement, just really surprised that you can do it while playing a set that damages you at the same time. I freely admit I am not a strong creator of builds, and would love to take a peek at yours to see where I can improve mine.

This was the build i used for the hours long slow ITF and EM aoe test :

 

Tanker - Shield Defense - Energy Melee V4.mxd

 

Just note :

 

• Stun as a place holder for Power crash
• The 5 ios on "Stun" are 5 armagedons (but dmg / recharge)
• The Solo run was long but note too that NOTHING was +5 on the build so, very very promising.
• This build is largely inspired by the monstrous  SD / Martial Arts from @Werner our beloved bearded King 😄
• This was on Build 1

Edited November 8, 2020 by Tsuko

[BrandX]

34 minutes ago, Azera said:

If you are referring to my post, then it appears you may have misunderstood. I did not ask for Tanks to get any health back. I only asked for the damage penalty to be overturned only on ET attacks that were charged with EF, which would essentially equate to receiving damage every other ET attack. It is my opinion, that this one benefit would be nice form tanks/brutes, since stalkers and scrappers get two. (the chance to heal and a second stack of EF) I don't see how that is game breaking or a negative impact to stalkers/scrappers.

 

Honestly, I don’t know why so many people go out of their way to keep other archetypes/powersets down? For example, I’m fully in agreement that stalkers and scrappers should get the full crit because that is the benefit of their archetype. It doesn’t bother me one bit that they can pump out more damage than my tank.

 

Scrappers/Stalkers only get that on criticals.  So, it's not even a 100% thing every other ET attack, that they'd get life back.  Wouldn't even be a 100% on the slim chance they get 2 EFs from TF.

[Wavicle]

The sound effects for Total Focus still do not play consistently when it hits.

[0th Power]

Played for about an hour and a half on the graveyard shift. 
 

tanker EM/inv exed to lv 29

fully IO’d

side note - love the new arc

 

At level 29, with only one power to worry about having energy release, EM is a vast improvement.  The animation time adjustment on total focus takes it from a terrible power to a great one. I did notice that if you have stored energy and use total focus it doesn’t reset the stored energy time, not sure if that’s a bug or a feature. The whirling hands buff is very noticeable but it seems to have had the chance to stun reduced (anecdotal). I plan on testing at a higher level soon

[siolfir]

15 hours ago, BrandX said:

 

Scrappers/Stalkers only get that on criticals.  So, it's not even a 100% thing every other ET attack, that they'd get life back.  Wouldn't even be a 100% on the slim chance they get 2 EFs from TF.

To be fair Stalkers could almost guarantee it, but you'd have to not get hit during Placate's animation and you'd lose damage for it if you were already fighting.

 

Not that many Stalkers take Placate anymore.

[M3z]

 

11 hours ago, siolfir said:

To be fair Stalkers could almost guarantee it, but you'd have to not get hit during Placate's animation and you'd lose damage for it if you were already fighting.

 

Not that many Stalkers take Placate anymore.

put chance for hide proc into TF

 

also I've rolled and min/max'd my em/bio stalker can we make this patch live thx :)

[Direct Crit]

1 hour ago, M3z said:

 

put chance for hide proc into TF

 

also I've rolled and min/max'd my em/bio stalker can we make this patch live thx 🙂

You'd probably want it in AS to more consistently proc the TF crit. Putting the chance to hide proc in TF sorta prevents you from using the hide status to trigger the extra EF crit off TF. I imagine it'd be something like TF -> ET -> EP -> BS -> ET -> AS -> TF -> Repeat, though there might be room for better optimization there.

On a different note what are people's thoughts of Stalker's Power Crash matching Tankers for AoE Count/EF usage? I understand that's unique to Tanks as part of buffs to make them generally more appealing but a big part of the detriment of Stalkers in general is the AoE gutting they faced for many older sets on creation. The only reason I'd mention this as something Stalkers should get is that even with EF bumping their AoE count up to 15 for Power Crash with the change, they still lack Whirling Hands so they're not exactly stepping on Tanker's toes for the AoE strength, and it'd further help give Stalkers another solid AoE option like they should have in every set without it being as AoE friendly as the Non-Stalker set.

This is rooted in my opinion that all Stalker sets should have one serviceable AoE regardless of their ST focus, as having AoE gutted from their sets was a massive misstep in the original design of Stalkers.

[aethereal]

9 hours ago, Tactical said:

n a different note what are people's thoughts of Stalker's Power Crash matching Tankers for AoE Count/EF usage? I understand that's unique to Tanks as part of buffs to make them generally more appealing but a big part of the detriment of Stalkers in general is the AoE gutting they faced for many older sets on creation.

I'm putting together a high-end EM stalker to test this, but my gut feeling is that Stalker EM is so good at single-target that its AoE shouldn't be buffed more.

 

It's crazy for a set to have three super-hard-hitting ST attacks (Assassin's Strike, Total Focus, Energy Transfer), on timers that make it easy to get them all into a single 10s rotation (stalkers don't want a less-than 10s rotation because of the lockout on the chance-to-hide proc), one of them twice.