Focused Feedback: Energy Melee Revamp

[Bopper]

22 minutes ago, Hew said:

Let's not, shall we? 🙂

I dont want it. The set is near perfect. I'm ready to play it on live as is.

[0th Power]

Suggestion: for tankers would it be possible for power crash to not use the stored energy focus if there were less than 10 to hit checks?

 

[Bopper]

I was working out some numbers showing the improvement in ST DPS of new EM compared with old EM (pre-I12, not the current EM). These are simple chains, no critical hits, no procs, just raw damage. I looked at 3 chains for old EM: TF/BS/ET/EP/BS,  TF/EP/ET/BS/EP,  and TF/BS/ET/gap/BS (assumed 500% recharge to minimize the gap).  I chose these chains as they were the ones folks seemed to have mentioned either in this thread or via PMs. If anyone has an old EM chain that they used that can outperform these, let me know and I'll analyze it. 

 

For the new EM, I picked a fairly basic chain. It's high-end as you need a lot of recharge (but so did the old EM chains I analyzed) but it's not complicated. ET(slow)/TF/ET(fast)/EP/BS. I assume no crits, so for argument's sake, I will never get a 2nd fast ET. But if I did gain the 2nd fast ET the DPA of the chain can only get better.

 

In my analysis I highlight the power that requires the most recharge for making the chain gapless (or minimal gap). At the bottom I compare New EM to each of the Old EM Chains. The damage is shown in scaled form, and the DPA is calculated as the total damage of the chain divided by the total arcanatime of the chain.

 

 

The top performing rotation of old EM was Chain 2, which requires ~399% recharge in Total Focus. It had a scaled DPA of 1.39, wheras the new EM requires the same ~399% recharge in Energy Transfer and achieved a scaled DPA of 1.65, which is a +18.65% improvement over Chain 2.

 

This analysis is done to show the impact (benefits) of having your best power (Energy Transfer) using only a 10s recharge. This benefit combined with having a fast version half the time, cast time shavings of Total Focus and Bone Smasher, as well as a damage buff to Energy Punch has created a superior version to whatever old EM used to produce. Again, I will caveat that last statement with any other old EM rotations that folks might remember that they think is better. Perhaps a rotation that involved no Total Focus, or something with Buildup. Throw it at me, and I'll compare it to what new EM can do.

Edited November 19, 2020 by Bopper
corrected numbers

[ivanhedgehog]

8 hours ago, Bopper said:

I dont want it. The set is near perfect. I'm ready to play it on live as is.

agreed. I am ready for it now

[Troo]

On 11/10/2020 at 10:50 AM, Wavicle said:

If you stated as your opinion that you don’t like it then no one would argue with you. But that’s not what you said. You said it’s bad design to make powers work better when used in a certain order. Well I disagree.

 

Disagreeing with folks since..

ahhh, the olden days. look at that post count!

[Wavicle]

2 minutes ago, Troo said:

 

Disagreeing with folks since..

ahhh, the olden days. look at that post count!

lol I’ve been disagreeing with people since Long before that!

 

 And I was right, EM was OP but then they nerfed it too much, which was a repeating pattern.

[Troo]

9 hours ago, Bopper said:

I was working out some numbers showing the improvement in ST DPS of new EM compared with old EM (pre-I12, not the current EM). These are simple chains, no critical hits, no procs, just raw damage. I looked at 3 chains for old EM: TF/BS/ET/EP/BS,  TF/EP/ET/BS/EP,  and TF/BS/ET/gap/BS (assumed 500% recharge to minimize the gap).  I chose these chains as they were the ones folks seemed to have mentioned either in this thread or via PMs. If anyone has an old EM chain that they used that can outperform these, let me know and I'll analyze it. 

 

For the new EM, I picked a fairly basic chain. It's high-end as you need a lot of recharge (but so did the old EM chains I analyzed) but it's not complicated. ET(slow)/TF/ET(fast)/EP/BS. I assume no crits, so for argument's sake, I will never get a 2nd fast ET. But if I did gain the 2nd fast ET the DPA of the chain can only get better.

 

In my analysis I highlight the power that requires the most recharge for making the chain gapless (or minimal gap). At the bottom I compare New EM to each of the Old EM Chains. The damage is shown in scaled form, and the DPA is calculated as the total damage of the chain divided by the total arcanatime of the chain.

Spoiler

 

The top performing rotation of old EM was Chain 2, which requires ~399% recharge in Total Focus. It had a scaled DPA of 1.39, wheras the new EM requires the same ~399% recharge in Energy Transfer and achieved a scaled DPA of 1.65, which is a +18.65% improvement over Chain 2.

 

This analysis is done to show the impact (benefits) of having your best power (Energy Transfer) using only a 10s recharge. This benefit combined with having a fast version half the time, cast time shavings of Total Focus and Bone Smasher, as well as a damage buff to Energy Punch has created a superior version to whatever old EM used to produce. Again, I will caveat that last statement with any other old EM rotations that folks might remember that they think is better. Perhaps a rotation that involved no Total Focus, or something with Buildup. Throw it at me, and I'll compare it to what new EM can do.

 

This is great. It absolutely shows what high end builds could do.

 

I'd only ask: Does the average character/build experience the same?

[Bopper]

5 minutes ago, Troo said:

This is great. It absolutely shows what high end builds could do.

 

I'd only ask: Does the average character/build experience the same?

Give me any parameters you want and I'll analyze it. Would you like me to analyze builds assuming 3 SOs (100% base + 95% enhanced recharge) and no global recharge? Give me a chain from old EM and I'll provide a comparison with what can be done using new EM using low end builds.

[Gibson99]

On 10/24/2020 at 12:40 PM, Maxzero said:

 

Energy Melee with 1 sec ET and Shadow Maul. I can feel the balance.

Balance is overrated. I much prefer awesomeness.

[Troo]

The equivalent of 2 acc, 3 dmg and 1 rech would be an average player or sets of Crushing Impact or Mako's Bite.

 

My attack chains on the old set did not include TF. I'd say @Infinitum might have a typical off hand, though they tend to be looking at pretty high end performance. When I get back to the house I can provide something.

[Bopper]

21 minutes ago, Troo said:

The equivalent of 2 acc, 3 dmg and 1 rech would be an average player or sets of Crushing Impact or Mako's Bite.

 

My attack chains on the old set did not include TF. I'd say @Infinitum might have a typical off hand, though they tend to be looking at pretty high end performance. When I get back to the house I can provide something.

Thanks, I won't be home in awhile anyways. Give me specific details and I'll plug in your numbers into your old EM chain and I'll do your same numbers in a new EM chain.

[Infinitum]

48 minutes ago, Troo said:

The equivalent of 2 acc, 3 dmg and 1 rech would be an average player or sets of Crushing Impact or Mako's Bite.

 

My attack chains on the old set did not include TF. I'd say @Infinitum might have a typical off hand, though they tend to be looking at pretty high end performance. When I get back to the house I can provide something.

If you were skipping total focus, it may seem slow but actually was a high burst attack especially under build up.

 

I remember pre nerf I ran just about every possible combination to maximise dps and TF always ended up in the chain because it usually provided a one two punch to either take out a boss outright in combo with ET or 2 lieu in combo with ET.

 

The rest of the attacks were at best fillers - bone smasher was decent, but they really didnt hold a candle to the 1-2 punch you had with ET and TF as a one two combo - especially under build up because you could fit 2 ETs in 1 build up easily like ET TF EP or BS ET.  Then filler.

 

That was devastating, but having said all that the new EM outperforms that by a fairly large margin by every test I have ran.

 

Its more sustainable, more damage, less end usage, lower recharge, lower animation times.

 

Its just the clear cut winner empirically and thematically because it is in every way identical to pre nerf EM by only using TF - and with the addition of PC which I am growing to love.

Edited November 19, 2020 by Infinitum

[Myrmidon]

4 hours ago, Troo said:

This is great. It absolutely shows what high end builds could do.

 

I'd only ask: Does the average character/build experience the same?

It’s been my experience that the average character build is looking more at “Rule of Cool” than maximum DPS. It is very easy to forget that we forumites are a minority here, just as we were before The Snap.

[M3z]

For stalkers in PvP(these changes apply to pvp only), I am completely fine losing the heal ET and double energy focus charges in TF. There is not really a scenario where these benefits are helpful, stalkers cant at all scrap with other melees(their tankiness just lets them out damage race you) so losing the extra benefits for more up front crit damage would be far more useful. I have tested this in 8v8 arena and against a tank 1v1.

 

EM in pvp doesn't do great enough damage to justify playing this over a blaster. First off when running a melee you are on less targets in general and second the trouble of getting into melee against ranged characters with jaunt etc puts you at massive disadvantage. Now if the damage was increased so the single hits were more threatening rather than just doing slightly more than a single blaster attack that'd put this set in a much better place. Stalkers need to be rewarded for actually landing hits.

 

Landing an AS is the most difficult it's ever been in the history of this game with jaunt now being meta. So stalkers need very strong ST attacks to make up for this. Drop the heal (you cant scrap and you cant take, you get hit you generally die making the heal useless) get rid of the extra energy focus charge from TF (engagements are no more than 3-4 hits AT MOST) and provide greater crit damage(instead of 28% maybe 50-60%) or partial unresisted crits, either of those could make stalkers more of a threat.

 

I wish I could post a video on how difficult it actually is to close the distance in this meta, it's a nightmare.

[ivanhedgehog]

On 10/24/2020 at 8:32 PM, TheEmpyrean said:

Blech, then the original animation sucked.  I don't want to give up the whole point of the new revamp, I just want an animation that looks as powerful as the hit is.  If they just took away the long buildup and left the double punch animation then it'd mesh better and still look powerful.

Talk to the hand was the best animation.

[TheEmpyrean]

18 minutes ago, ivanhedgehog said:

Talk to the hand was the best animation.

One of the most bad ass single target hits in the game with screen shake delivered by a high five with your back heel daintily lifted?  When there's another animation that looks like the melee version of the Wave Motion Gun?  Best if you're into the whole Millennial ironic or "that's so random" thing, maybe.

[Bopper]

8 hours ago, Troo said:

When I get back to the house I can provide something.

I'm available to work on this. Do you have an old EM rotation you would like me to analyze for non-uber builds?

[M3z]

22 hours ago, M3z said:

For stalkers in PvP(these changes apply to pvp only), I am completely fine losing the heal ET and double energy focus charges in TF. There is not really a scenario where these benefits are helpful, stalkers cant at all scrap with other melees(their tankiness just lets them out damage race you) so losing the extra benefits for more up front crit damage would be far more useful. I have tested this in 8v8 arena and against a tank 1v1.

 

EM in pvp doesn't do great enough damage to justify playing this over a blaster. First off when running a melee you are on less targets in general and second the trouble of getting into melee against ranged characters with jaunt etc puts you at massive disadvantage. Now if the damage was increased so the single hits were more threatening rather than just doing slightly more than a single blaster attack that'd put this set in a much better place. Stalkers need to be rewarded for actually landing hits.

 

Landing an AS is the most difficult it's ever been in the history of this game with jaunt now being meta. So stalkers need very strong ST attacks to make up for this. Drop the heal (you cant scrap and you cant take, you get hit you generally die making the heal useless) get rid of the extra energy focus charge from TF (engagements are no more than 3-4 hits AT MOST) and provide greater crit damage(instead of 28% maybe 50-60%) or partial unresisted crits, either of those could make stalkers more of a threat.

 

I wish I could post a video on how difficult it actually is to close the distance in this meta, it's a nightmare.

Did some more testing v.s. a min/maxed pvp blaster build (fire/plant) with my min/maxed em/bio stalker, here are the numbers in pvp as to why stalkers could definitely use a bump in damage.

 

Typical fire/plant attack chain

(Anyone can hit this attack chain 100% of the time)

build up->blaze->strangler->blazing bolt

1. Blaze: 384 damage (5 sec cooldown 100 ft+ Ranged)
2. Strangler: 676 damage (10 sec cooldown 80ft+ ranged)
3. Blazing Bolt 661 damage (Insta cast ranged SNIPE 5 sec cooldown 100ft+ range)

TOTAL: 1721 damage at 80 ft+ range (vs bio stalker)

 

Typical EM/Bio attack chain

(You will be lucky to get 2 attacks off against a breathing human being)

Build up->total focus(mini crit)(into rehide)->energy transfer(mini crit)->quick cast assassin strike

1. Total Focus CRIT: 518 dmg(melee 10 sec CD)
2. Energy Transfer CRIT: 696 (melee 6 sec CD)
3. Assassin Strike Fast Cast: 441 (melee  7 sec CD)

TOTAL: 1,655 at 8ft range (vs plant blaster)

 

Notes on my em/bio build: I am running with 77% bonus damage

 

Conclusion:

• I'm not here to cry about blasters, I'm just giving an example of what you will have to contend with as a stalker and why they will need a bit more to be able to stand a chance
• "What about AS?" In serious 8s scenarios, it can be 3-4-5 spikes before you are able to land an AS, especially given the jaunt meta probably even less, in zones you get an AS off but rarely can you get a follow up other than zapp/moonbeam, the damage equates to around 1100-1300 with a BU+AS+snipe.
• Blaster attack chains which only require you to be within 80 ft of a target do more than a stalker critting multiple times in an attack chain that require you to be within 8ft of target.
• Blazing bolt does the same damage roughly as energy transfer mini critting at literally 10x the range and a lower cooldown and with zero prerequisites(you have to total focus crit to get fast animation!!).
• This was all within build up as well, outside of build up the stalker's numbers were pretty abysmal

 

Other hilarious notes:
Blaster has 1847 HP+absorb shield(in new patch at least 100-200 hp??)+40% res to ALL
Stalker has 1971 HP with some res/def (ranging from 10-30%) (bio armor)

 

This means, given the numbers above a blaster CAN and WILL stand there and out scrap you as a stalker from RANGE

 

Anyway I know there are like 2 people on this planet who care about pvping with stalkers but I get really annoyed when I see total focus doing like 250 damage outside of build up.

 

If other sets can get pvp specific changes, give EM pvp specific changes because as you can see, for how impossibly hard it is to get into melee to begin with you are given less a reward than a blaster attacking at 10x your range than a stalker build that makes immense sacrifices in survivability for damage.

 

Edited November 20, 2020 by M3z

[Troo]

(I had a post but timed out and lost it)

 

There is nothing wrong with the attack chains you have.

 

I'm saying without the global recharges which just aren't realistic for the average character. The benefit might be substantially less. It's fun playing with max build type numbers vs pylons but how applicable is it for normal average folks?

 

33.3%, 38.6%, 62.7% recharges are much different than 356.5%, 398.7%, or 500% (edit: I left out Hasten on top of the 33.3%, 38.6%, 62.7% that's my bad)

 

SOs

 

IOs level 40

 

IO Set level 40

 

Edited November 20, 2020 by Troo

[Bopper]

9 minutes ago, Troo said:

(I had a post but timed out and lost it)

 

There is nothing wrong with the attack chains you have.

 

I'm saying without the global recharges which just aren't realistic for the average character. The benefit might be substantially less. It's fun playing with max build type numbers vs pylons but how applicable is it for normal average folks?

 

33.3%, 38.6%, 62.7% recharges are much different than 356.5%, 398.7%, or 500%

I'm assuming you're replying to me given the recharges you quoted. Did you want me to analyze the DPA of attack chains for slotting only 33.3% recharge? I can do that and compare it to old EM, but can you provide me an old EM chain using only 33.3% recharge?

 

Honestly, pick any recharge limitation you want and I'll use it. I just need a chain, if you have one. Or I'll make one up using the limits you set. 

[Troo]

1 hour ago, Bopper said:

Honestly, pick any recharge limitation you want and I'll use it. I just need a chain, if you have one. Or I'll make one up using the limits you set. 

EM Brute when it was SOs maybe it was  BU > ET > BS > TF > BS > EP > ET  (1(ET) > 1.5(BS) > 3.3(TF) > 1.5(BS) > .83(EP) = 8.1) I think the trick was maybe to put an extra recharge in ET.

 

(Edit: these include Hasten and recharge enhancements only)

 

Edited November 20, 2020 by Troo

[Bopper]

2 minutes ago, Troo said:

EM Brute when it was SOs maybe it was  BU > ET > BS > TF > BS > EP > ET  (1(ET) > 1.5(BS) > 3.3(TF) > 1.5(BS) > .83(EP) = 8.1) I think the trick was maybe to put an extra recharge in ET.

 

 

I'll PM you to work out the details

[Bopper]

Talking with @Troo, he gave me a good challenge for comparing the performance of Original E.M. (pre-i12) and New E.M. (i27). We wanted to see how much damage could be done within a Build Up window with an SO only build using Hasten. This is intended to address how well the new EM plays for casual low level builds in an effort to see how it compares to the once great burst of original EM.

 

This analysis will assume the slotted recharge is 66.6% (2 SOs) and will assume Hasten will be active. I will also ignore crits and proc slotting. I do this because procs of yester-year are nothing like how they're used now and also, Stalkers were the only AT that could crit with old EM but fast Assassin's Strike render a comparison between the two irrelevant... i12 can't compete with that. So for argument's sake, we'll assume this is a Brute, but I'm going to use scaled damage for the analysis.

 

Original E.M. chain:  Build Up > ET > BS > TF > BS > EP > ET

This chain actually needs +152.53% recharge slotted into Energy Transfer to make this gapless. However, with a recharge of 136.6%, the gap created between EP > ET is 0.533s. That is ok, as it will still fit the 2nd ET within the 10s window. For academic purposes, I will show the average DPA of the chain in the bottom row to highlight the burst over time but to also allow for a comparison to what the DPA would be without the gap.

 

In total, the chain (w/ gap) takes 10.83s to complete and does 16.96 scaled damage, which averages 1.5662 scaled DPA. If there was no gap, the chain would complete in 10.296s and average 1.6472 scaled DPA. 

 

For the New E.M., I looked at a few chains. I'll share each of them and discuss them individually.

New E.M. chain #1: ET(slow) > TF > EP > BS > ET (fast)

 

This chain actually finishes before the 10s window is finished, so you can actually fit one more attack in with your choosing (my next 2 chains will show this). The scaled DPA of the chain is 1.6517 which is better than the Original E.M. chain, even if it was gapless. I highlight that mostly for the sake of showing some of the burst capability. However, notice the DPA over time, this chain is far more steady than Original E.M.'s. The Original E.M. is incredibly front loaded with its burst damage while the new E.M. starts good, then finishes strong with its fast ET finisher. One nice thing, this chain only requires 89.4% recharge in Energy Transfer to make this gapless. You can do that with just slotting (3 SOs) and not take Hasten.

 

New E.M. chain #2: ET(slow) > TF > EP > BS > ET (fast) > EP

This is just a continuation of the previous chain, where I throw in Energy Punch at the tail end of the Build Up window. 

I wanted to show this simply to compare the 1.596 scaled DPA is slightly better than the Original E.M. chain (w/ gap), however it does less total damage (16.64 vs. 16.96) and does less DPA if the Original E.M. did not have a gap.

 

New E.M. chain #3: ET(slow) > BS > TF > EP > BS > ET (fast)

If this chain looks familiar, it's because it's basically the same chain as the Original E.M. You fit 2 ETs, 2 BS, 1 EP and 1 TF into a single Build Up window. 

The positives of this chain: it does more damage than the Original E.M. chain (17.12 versus 16.96, thanks to the EP damage buff). It has a higher DPA than the original E.M. when the gap exists and it only requires +108.99% recharge slotted into Bone Smasher to achieve a gapless chain. 

 

Conclusion:  

The New Energy Melee is capable of doing the same Build Up window performance as Original Energy Melee for casual low-end builds. Although new EM will use a slow Energy Transfer in its chain, the cast time shavings of Total Focus and Bone Smasher as well as the damage buff to Energy Punch helps close the gap of the slower cast time. Original Energy Melee still benefits from the fact it can always open with a fast E.T., but aside from one-shotting, stringing multiple attacks together will eventually even out the performance between the two generations of Energy Melee.

 

 

 

Quoting previous work so it's easier to find later.

21 hours ago, Bopper said:

In my analysis I highlight the power that requires the most recharge for making the chain gapless (or minimal gap). At the bottom I compare New EM to each of the Old EM Chains. The damage is shown in scaled form, and the DPA is calculated as the total damage of the chain divided by the total arcanatime of the chain.

 

 

 

[Hew]

@Bopperthis will sound stupid, but...

 

Messing around with whirling hands and power crash, I don't really understand how this looks like in something remotely like an effective chain.

 

Frankly, I slot for some dam, some rech, some acc, some end. I have zero understanding of how PC/WH actually works when you are trying to pump out damage (on a tank), despite the huge target caps and radii. 

 

Fundamentally, how do these two work together to (effectively) clear trash? Despite lots of testing, I really dont understand! Again, on a tank.

 

edit: Caveat. I am slotting 2? damage procs and some mixed slotting in WH, which SEEMS ok, but I am not sure, since its all like a bunch of 40-ish damage ticks at once... 

Edited November 20, 2020 by Hew

[Myrmidon]

24 minutes ago, Hew said:

@Bopperthis will sound stupid, but...

 

Messing around with whirling hands and power crash, I don't really understand how this looks like in something remotely like an effective chain.

 

Frankly, I slot for some dam, some rech, some acc, some end. I have zero understanding of how PC/WH actually works when you are trying to pump out damage (on a tank), despite the huge target caps and radii. 

 

Fundamentally, how do these two work together to (effectively) clear trash? Despite lots of testing, I really dont understand! Again, on a tank.

 

edit: Caveat. I am slotting 2? damage procs and some mixed slotting in WH, which SEEMS ok, but I am not sure, since its all like a bunch of 40-ish damage ticks at once... 

 

Good question. When you’re on a Tanker in solo play, the increased number of targets for Power Crash doesn’t matter unless your above 10 mobs saturation. You’re best bet is to find the strongest target in the spawn and burn them down with Total Focus/Energy Transfer while using Whirling Hands/Power Crash in-between to take out the garbage.

 

 As a Tanker in teams, your focus switches to maintaining aggro, you can switch your focus. The additional number of targets for Power Crash will come in handy even if you’re past target saturation, because Gauntlet will Proc and help to keep the aggro centered as your teams AoEs annihilate the mob cluster. Through this, maintain your focus on hard targets and you’ll be fine.