Focused Feedback: Trick Arrow Revamp

[Wavicle]

As stated elsewhere one of the goals of the update is to make the set less reliant on Control and more about debuff and buff.

[Hew]

Ok, so. On a relatively high power team (3 incarnates, mix of not-50s) running +3/8, I get ONE arrow off, and everything is dead. Which is, of course, flash arrow. Only 3 dps in the team, (scrapper, 2 blasters). The +4 (54) av melted so fast that by the time i fired off aa, pga, osa, flash, it was dead.

 

I don't think the buffs really help, when content falls over dead so fast!!! 

[Wavicle]

1 minute ago, Hew said:

Ok, so. On a relatively high power team (3 incarnates, mix of not-50s) running +3/8, I get ONE arrow off, and everything is dead. Which is, of course, flash arrow. Only 3 dps in the team, (scrapper, 2 blasters). The +4 (54) av melted so fast that by the time i fired off aa, pga, osa, flash, it was dead.

 

I don't think the buffs really help, when content falls over dead so fast!!! 

Fair point, but not really an issue that’s being addressed right now.

[Hew]

Agreed, not the point being addressed at the moment. Just a sad observation I guess. 😕

[Luminara]

25 minutes ago, laudwic said:

This is a final level 32 or level 38 power, it should be better than holds that are available on other sets at lower levels.

 

It is.

[Luminara]

13 minutes ago, Hew said:

Ok, so. On a relatively high power team (3 incarnates, mix of not-50s) running +3/8, I get ONE arrow off, and everything is dead. Which is, of course, flash arrow. Only 3 dps in the team, (scrapper, 2 blasters). The +4 (54) av melted so fast that by the time i fired off aa, pga, osa, flash, it was dead.

 

I don't think the buffs really help, when content falls over dead so fast!!! 

 

Sounds like you already had a lot of support on the team.  Not much that can be done to TA to fix that... if anything, these going to make the problem worse.  People might actually ask for TAs on teams now, instead of everyone mentioning that their cats are on fire and logging off when a TA joins, and you'll have to endure this situation frequently.  Oh, well, at least you can blast!  😄

[Luminara]

38 minutes ago, laudwic said:

Considering the difference between Melee damage and ranged damage, as well as limiting number of available attacks, range may be a better defense than fighting in this new cage.

Then don't enter the cage.  You've got plenty of other damage/mez mitigation tools at your disposal.

 

2 hours ago, laudwic said:

My suggestion would allow the power to have the same utility offensively by placing it on a group of mobs

 

You've gone from stating that staying out of melee range was preferable to asking for a mobile Faraday Cage attached to critters so you... still have to be in melee range to benefit from it...

 

That, or you're asking for a PBAoE Hold emanating from critters, which is just... way over the top.  Game breaking over the top.

 

2 hours ago, laudwic said:

defensively by having it effect those initially in (once) and effect any that enter during the duration as is done with certain lower level targetable AoE holds.

 

3 hours ago, Luminara said:

Part of the goal of the changes to TA is to move it away from being reliant on controls.  In the last attempt to address TA's problems before the original servers were shut down, the one notable change made was to turn PGA's Sleep into a rapidly pulsing control, which pushed the set into being completely dependent on controls to compensate for the weakness of the debuffs.  This development team is taking the other direction, making the debuffs stronger, weakening the controls and firmly focusing the set as a defender primary.  You're always free to PM @Captain Powerhouse and ask him to consider your proposal, but I can save you the time by telling you now that he's not going to make EMP Arrow work like Volcanic Gases or Distortion Field, because it would be a step backward, and because it would require further balance adjustments across the set.

 

Defenders buff and debuff, first and foremost.  They can control, but that's not their primary function.  The HC team is realigning TA to more accurately and fully exist as a defender primary, partly by removing some of the overabundance of control in the set.

 

1 hour ago, laudwic said:

I do not see my change as overpowered in a final set power.

 

If you consider the actual impact of those changes, you might.

 

2 hours ago, laudwic said:

Admittedly, I am a primarily a solo player.

 

I'm an exclusively solo player.  I disagree with your assessment.  EMP Arrow has always been a crutch for players to lean on, propping up a set that was so bad at debuffing that only enthusiasts bothered to play it as a defender, corruptor or mastermind, and so heavily reliant on controls that it allowed controllers to almost completely reverse the changes which prevented the game from being City of Statues.  The beta changes to TA have removed the need for a crutch, the need for EMP Arrow to compensate for the poor performance of the debuffs in the set, while simultaneously adding new utility and versatility to the power.

 

Solo or teamed is irrelevant, beta TA as a whole is leagues ahead of where it stands on the live servers.  Your suggestions ignore that, disregarding the set entirely and focus on one power.  You're not looking at it within the context of the set.  TA doesn't need the changes you're asking for, and EMP Arrow doesn't have any glaring issues which would justify those changes.

[KaizenSoze]

5 hours ago, Wavicle said:

Fair point, but not really an issue that’s being addressed right now.

 

5 hours ago, Hew said:

Ok, so. On a relatively high power team (3 incarnates, mix of not-50s) running +3/8, I get ONE arrow off, and everything is dead. Which is, of course, flash arrow. Only 3 dps in the team, (scrapper, 2 blasters). The +4 (54) av melted so fast that by the time i fired off aa, pga, osa, flash, it was dead.

 

I don't think the buffs really help, when content falls over dead so fast!!! 

AVs melting that fast implies a very strong team.

 

There have been many threads about people with different ATs complaining feeling useless in eight person teams.

[csr]

On 11/13/2020 at 12:55 AM, Bopper said:

I know what a defense debuff is worth. I also know what debuff resistance debuffs are worth. I also know what procs are worth. I don't know which spreadsheet you're talking about though, you'd need to be more specific.

 

But again, I'm not trying to sell you on it. If you don't want it, skip it. I think I've said that 3 times tonight, but I'll say it again.  Not every power needs to be taken. If you don't find value in it, don't take it. If I find value in it, I'll take it. In no way does it need to he changed just because some people won't take it. Use the allocation of power picks however you want, but I'll assure you this powerset has been squeezed to the max. Buffing Acid Arrow further will come at the cost of something else. If you have ideas on what you'd like to nerf in order to buff AA further, feel free to provide suggestions for the compromise. And if you don't want to nerf any of the other powers, then maybe...skip it.

Sorry, was away from the game for a few days, so this is a late response.  I had an onset of Meniere's vertigo right as I was finishing that post, which was why it was so terse.  Anyway...

 

I was referring to the spreadsheet posted earlier in this thread arguing that TA is arguably the best all-around debuff set, around post 200 or so in this thread.

 

As for procs.  I think those are apt to get a major nerf sooner rather than later.  AA definitely works well as a proc bomb.  But if you're going to balance on that, you should balance on what you expect procs to be once nerfed, rather than what they are now.  My assumption regarding proc changes is that something on the order of counting Global Recharge in the formula is going to happen.  If you're running around with perma-Hasten or close to it, that would mean your procs would be worth less than half what they are now.

 

This is a feedback thread.  My feedback is that I don't like this version of Acid Arrow.  Specifically... I think that powers with -Def as their primary effect should have better than base accuracy.  I also find that the cast time of Acid Arrow makes it too weak to use except as a rare emergency power against things such as CoT spirits or immediately before using EMP Arrow against AVs and GMs.  The -Special simply doesn't do enough for the -ToHit in Flash Arrow to make it worth the extra time there.  I was hoping the -Special was good enough for general use, but the fact that it can stack seems to hold down it's magnitude and then that is affected by the Purple Patch.  So it seems pretty weak in solo PvE.  What I dislike most is that these changes take Acid Arrow from arguably the best power in the set to arguably the worst.

 

Things in Trick Arrow that I find a bit OP?  EMP Arrow, which appears balanced for the long Recharge and therefore - like many powers - becomes OP at high levels of +Rech.  I also think Disruption Arrow is a bit OP at this time.  The set as a whole is, IMO, now on par with most debuff sets.

[Bopper]

29 minutes ago, csr said:

 

I was referring to the spreadsheet posted earlier in this thread arguing that TA is arguably the best all-around debuff set

In that post I did say to take the equal weighting with a grain of salt. I also mentioned my personal preference of Dark because it emphasizes debuffs I prioritize more (damage, resistance, to-hit). If you removed the defense debuff analysis, it still ranks 2nd (behind dark which does no defense debuffing). Also, Storm and Cold take a huge hit, but I dont think anyone thinks of those are poor debuff sets.

 

Again, you can skip the power. Thats fine. Its not for everybody and its already a bloated set of good powers, so having something to skip might be a good thing for you.

Edited November 18, 2020 by Bopper

[Nylithe]

How does this set feel for masterminds now? I've desired to try something like Ninja / TA, but the mastermind forums have cursed the combo entirely and i wonder if the debuffs are aggressive enough to actually keep said minions alive at more difficult levels.

[Wavicle]

Just now, Nylithe said:

How does this set feel for masterminds now? I've desired to try something like Ninja / TA, but the mastermind forums have cursed the combo entirely and i wonder if the debuffs are aggressive enough to actually keep said minions alive at more difficult levels.

It’s great for MMS now imo. 

[WindDemon21]

7 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

It’s great for MMS now imo. 

I still don't get why some powers have an even lower value than troller/corruptors. Its a secondary set no matter the primary, and MMs need some changes as is already anyway.

[Wavicle]

Just now, WindDemon21 said:

I still don't get why some powers have an even lower value than troller/corruptors. Its a secondary set no matter the primary, and MMs need some changes as is already anyway.

In theory, it was because the MM has a whole crew of damage dealing pets. Perhaps it should be changed, I don’t know.

[Monos King]

22 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

In theory, it was because the MM has a whole crew of damage dealing pets. Perhaps it should be changed, I don’t know.

It's that, yeah, and for the primaries that don't suck it works out fine. The better majority of MM primaries just need to be looked at. 

[WindDemon21]

57 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

In theory, it was because the MM has a whole crew of damage dealing pets. Perhaps it should be changed, I don’t know.

I mean, it should. MMs have a SLEW of problems. Starting from needing the upgrades to be auto, into always having the powers and a complete reqork and new power, to one of the main issues of the pets going down to -2 levels of you.

 

But again, a secondary is a secondary. It should have the same stats as a troller/corruptor. I know force fields are the same etc, but it seems mainly that debuffs, which already get majorly resisted, are the things that have lower values.

[WindDemon21]

37 minutes ago, Monos King said:

It's that, yeah, and for the primaries that don't suck it works out fine. The better majority of MM primaries just need to be looked at. 

Exactly. There is literally like 50% of issue 28 that needs to fix MM issues.

[WindDemon21]

But at least for issue 27, make all MM secondary values the same as troller/corrs.

[Wavicle]

5 minutes ago, WindDemon21 said:

a secondary is a secondary. It should have the same stats as a troller/corruptor. 

I understand the desire, but that logic doesn't really follow.

Lots of ATs have damage dealing primaries, they don't all do the same damage.

EDIT: This is off topic, sorry.

Edited November 20, 2020 by Wavicle

[Wavicle]

13 minutes ago, WindDemon21 said:

it seems mainly that debuffs, which already get majorly resisted, are the things that have lower values.

actually it's the Controls that get the worst values. So, the changes to TA which take the sets focus OFF Control and put it on Debuff are quite good for MMs, despite their lower values.

[Jimmy]

As the patch is nearing completion, we are no longer seeking feedback on this topic.

 

The latest patch notes can be found in the Beta Patch Notes forum.

 

If you encounter any bugs during this last phase of testing, please report them in the Beta Bug Reports forum.

 

Once the patch is live, feel free to post feedback in the Suggestions & Feedback forum. and bug reports in the Bug Reports forum.

 

Thank you!