Focused Feedback: Teleportation Pool Revamp

[arthurh35353]

14 minutes ago, dtj714 said:

But this take with one hand and give with the other, makes no sense to me.  Developing the accolade cannot have been a small effort.  Personally, I'd be fine if they improved it and did it both ways.  Want to take it as the third pick in a pool you already have and like? Go for it.  Want to hunt hundreds of badges instead? Go for it...

This is the part that doesn't make sense to me. I liked being able to get 'one extra' teleport power that was teleport to other zones. But now that's being taken away and being replaced with something I have to do hours of extra work to get proper functionality for rogues/vigilantes.

 

If they added it with *all* of the extra zones as a power choice, I bet it would be an incentive enough for more people to get, but now they are taking it away from the one extra power choice and then making it a buttload of extra work to 'earn' for free.

 

It looks pretty much like the developers have got their complicated mess of a fix that is going to make no one happy.

[Vanden]

3 minutes ago, arthurh35353 said:

If they added it with *all* of the extra zones as a power choice, I bet it would be an incentive enough for more people to get, but now they are taking it away from the one extra power choice and then making it a buttload of extra work to 'earn' for free.

3* extra power choices

[Koopak]

31 minutes ago, dtj714 said:

Ok, let's actually look at the alternatives -

 

1. Mission Transporter - 30 min cd, must have a mission door.

2. Base Transporter - 30 min cd, must have a base with infrastructure for all other destinations.

3. Team Transporter - 30 min cd, must have a mission door.

4. Pocket D Transporter - 30 min cd, connects to 4 zones?

5. Ouro Portal - This is the closest thing, same base recharge of 5 mins, but the process is drop portal, take portal to Ouro, take Ouro portal to Talos (with a few exceptions), get to Tram or Tunnel, take Tram or Tunnel to destination.

 

These are the permanent, "power" options, AFAIK.  There are of course also LFG queue, transport to new contact, the Wentworth power(s), and Base Transporter Day Job, but those also have limitations.  LRTP is the only way to go from anywhere in a zone directly to another zone, with no other BS, every 5 minutes (or less).  Maybe I'm completely clueless though, so show me otherwise...

 

And yes, a big part of my issue is the accolade.  The explanation goes "LRTP is a useless power, so we are taking it out of its (namesake) pool, but it's useful/desired enough that we're actually going to improve it and put it in as an accolade, and lock it behind a ton of badges."  I mean, wtf? If it's useless, then take it out.  If it's worth improving and keeping, then do that.  But this take with one hand and give with the other, makes no sense to me.  Developing the accolade cannot have been a small effort.  Personally, I'd be fine if they improved it and did it both ways.  Want to take it as the third pick in a pool you already have and like? Go for it.  Want to hunt hundreds of badges instead? Go for it...

I get what you yer saying here but i think you over emphasis the inconveniences here, and are of course omitting starting location, if yer already at a zone with a Tram or TUNNEL that plays into this. I think the base portal is ultimately the one that does the lions share here.

Firstly you mis quote, these changes to LRTP are not happening in a vacuum. Each of the teleports you mentioned is being reduced to a 10 min cooldown, only double what base LRTP is. Now if you cycle Base Teleporter, and SuperGroup Portal summon, you have a 5 min cycle, same as LRTP. These changes are also not made because of LRTP, but instead because of the removal of the macro, which if your argument stems from how things are now prior to this patch, is an even bigger reason for why LRTP is worthless.

You imply that having a base is somehow hard, or particularly inconvenient. Ignoring the fact that most active SGs have such a base, and that id say the majority of people play in such SGs (i have no data so this is a guess but seems a good one) Setting up your own base is as simple as going to City Hall, making a dummy SG, loading in, throwing in a room, a few portals, and a bunch of beacons, and yer good to go. You don't need the SG badges anymore.

Now lets say you don't want to do that, well there are a wide number of bases on several servers, Everlasting in particular, that are open to the public, have all the portals at the entrance, and have their base code freely available.

Solve this 'problem' with any of the above solutions and yer back to LRTP levels of free movement.

I also think you over emphasis the location list. Realistically, how often do you need to go to a place not on that or the SG base list? I think when crossing between Blue, Red, and Gold sides are the only times it has mattered for me personally, and that's while actively attempting to experience every piece of content i haven't done in awhile or missed during live. Add in all the other options, and you have LOTS of mobility, such that LRTP isn't really giving anything.

Id go so far as to argue that the cooldown really doesn't matter either. I rarely need to transition zones more than once in say 15 mins, most of the time I'm in a zone for more than 30 mins. Maybe I'm the odd man out here, but I feel like we have so many mobility options that the only 'correct' solutions, are either axing LRTP from your power pick list and making it available for those who want it like this accolade. Or nerfing every other transport method to prop LRTP up. I'll tell ya right now that last one would cause riots in the streets.

As for the badge concern, again, I'm a little bit with you, maybe keep LRTP but still do all the changes here, so those who really want it can take it instead of getting the accolade. Or maybe make it only need you to get one badge, or visit the zone. I'm open to other ideas, but it absolutely should not be left as is, and Fold Space and Combat Teleport absolutely deserve a place in this pool more than it does.

 

(edit:)

 

9 minutes ago, Vanden said:

3* extra power choices

 

This as well, keep in mind that unless teleport just happens to be part of your character theme, this is a pool pick and 3 powers just to get, where as the new option is available for all. You have to invest in TP pretty hard for LRTP as is, and frankly, none of the powers prior to this rework aside from Teleport are worth much either. This change will fix that, but if you dont like any of the other TP powers, yer still stuck taking alot of chaff just to get your LRTP which you keep arguing is so good that it makes the other travel options seem so terrible you argue vehemently against being forced to use them.

Edited October 29, 2020 by Koopak

[arthurh35353]

8 minutes ago, Vanden said:

3* extra power choices

How is it 3 extra choices when I was getting teleport friend and teleport as a travel power? Just because you didn't think it was a travel power you wanted, doesn't make LRTP 3 choices. It's one extra choice for a teleporter.

[Koopak]

34 minutes ago, arthurh35353 said:

How is it 3 extra choices when I was getting teleport friend and teleport as a travel power? Just because you didn't think it was a travel power you wanted, doesn't make LRTP 3 choices. It's one extra choice for a teleporter.

Umm yes I'm aware of that.... I apologies if I was unclear. What I am saying is that while its only 1 pick for someone who wants to use those travel powers, its 3 and a pool for anyone who doesn't. Which means they have to choose between a power that is being argued to be so valuable as to be worth a power pick, let alone 3. An opinion I disagree with.

However if you believe its really that good, then I have to ask why the hell you'd be upset by it being made freely available. Your arguments should, in theory, be limited to "make it easier to unlock destinations" not "don't take it out of the pool set"

My point here is that there seems to be a bit of tribalism forming up around "keep LRTP because its good and i don't want to badge hunt for it" and "get rid of LRTP because its bad and handicaps build options in builds that take it" where there shouldn't be. The way I see it most of the argument for keeping LRTP in the TP pool is centered around the badge requirements for the new accolade, so why not focus on the unlock requirements? Because I'm 100% behind you, those unlock requirements are kinda steep.

And again please this "Just because you" emphasis is unnecessary. Speaking for myself, my main since 2010 in live with some 80% of my hours on has Teleport Friend, Teleport, and LRTP. I am all to happy to see LRTP go as i barely find reason to use it other than, as I said, for a spiffy animation when using other options.

Edited October 29, 2020 by Koopak

[arthurh35353]

16 minutes ago, Koopak said:

And again please this "Just because you" emphasis is unnecessary, my main since 2010 in live with some 80% of my hours on has Teleport Friend, Teleport, and LRTP. I am all to happy to see LRTP go as i barely find reason to use it other than, as I said, for a spiffy animation when using other options.

And I found it incredibly useful once it was added to Teleport since I've been teleporting since beta. I would have preferred a shorter teleport and short recharge, but it was very handy to just go 'port to Atlas' and boom I'm gone.

Could LRTP have been made more functional with being able to teleport to any open zone like the accolade allows once you've unlocked all zones? Absolutely. It probably should have had them added a long time ago.

 

But replacing it with a power that has melee and traps farmers salivating is just putting us back into 'City of Farmers' like Smoke Grenade had. The other stuff (other than useless group teleport) is nice, but making it a farmer's dream power is just plain silly and short sighted.

 

[Koopak]

32 minutes ago, arthurh35353 said:

But replacing it with a power that has melee and traps farmers salivating is just putting us back into 'City of Farmers' like Smoke Grenade had. The other stuff (other than useless group teleport) is nice, but making it a farmer's dream power is just plain silly and short sighted.

 

 

Farmers are going to use any and every tool they can, i don't see that as a reason to not give the rest of the player base said tool. Exp, recipes, and damn near every form of progression can be obtained by a solid farmer brute build faster than anything else, and that's not likely to change any time soon, certainly not without a patch far more broad than this one. Just because Fold Space will reduce farm times by maybe 10-20% doesn't in anyway invalidate its value in normal play. I would also argue that despite the game being in one of the best states it has ever been in for "ey let me go spam one mission and get everything i want" there is PLENTY of groups doing normal content in a normal fashion. Maybe that's just because Everlasting is the odd one out, but that's been my experience.

As for LRTP, i get if that was your experience, but with the buffs to base tp and other travel prestige, I cant help but feel any hatred for the change is mostly limited to "i dont want to click more than twice" and "i don't want to badge hunt". We solve that last one, is not your issue resolved? If we make it appropriately easy/hard to get the accolade and its destinations, would that not resolve your core issue with LRTP being moved to an accolade?

Edited October 30, 2020 by Koopak

[arthurh35353]

4 minutes ago, Koopak said:

As for LRTP, i get if that was your experience, but with the buffs to base tp and other travel prestige, I cant help but feel any hatred for the change is mostly limited to "i dont want to click more than twice" and "i don't want to badge hunt". We solve that last one, is not your issue resolved? If we make it appropriately easy/hard to get the accolade and its destinations, would that not resolve your core issue with LRTP being moved to an accolade?

The devs have already decided to make it a big time sink of badge collecting. We're just getting caught up in their 'fix' of a problem that wasn't really the problem.

[Koopak]

24 minutes ago, arthurh35353 said:

The devs have already decided to make it a big time sink of badge collecting. We're just getting caught up in their 'fix' of a problem that wasn't really the problem.

I believe the devs quite clearly are asking for our feedback on just that decision, which hardly makes it set in stone. And I, and apparently at least some others, disagree that it wasn't really a problem. Its vexed me for as long as I have had my main character. If we are here to give feedback, I'd like our feedback to be clear enough to make a decision on.

For you, LRTP's current implementation isn't an issue, for me it is, your primary issue with how its being resolved has to do with the time sink of badge hunting. So again, my point is, why don't we discuss alternative ways the accolade could be set up? If we find a solution that you and others who share your opinion are happy with, then we have a solution that allows those of us who do think LRTP is a problem to have the problem fixed, and those who hold with you, have things similar enough to how they were to not be disturbed by it.

I was under the impression that just such a conversation is basically the point of these threads, so we can help the devs with feedback and suggestions that make the game better for all of us.

Edited October 30, 2020 by Koopak

[DoctorDitko]

 

8 minutes ago, Koopak said:

help the devs with feedback and suggestions that make the game better for all of us

Yeah, Principle of Charity, folks. Assume everyone is being friendly and trying their best until proven otherwise.

 

It's the civil way to play! Especially when your Devs are volunteers, it's best to assume they are doing their best. If you have a better idea, suggest it! But these guys have no profit motive, no nerfbat addiction, no evil bosses making them misbehave. They're players, too!

[RageusQuitus2]

I take TP power pool for travel mostly on my MMs.  However what I find is the new changes dont help MMs much.  I need team TP to keep pets nearbye.  But team TP also takes whole teams or even large portions of leagues.  its a mess.  

 

Also if you are trying to TP around a zone with your pets, they dont keep up.  Even with team TP that lag before you TP and the lag after arrival (where pets eventually drop before you can TP again). 

 

Its simultaneously the best and worst option for MMs.  

 

Maybe make combat TP include pets.  Its very hard to reposition yourself and pets as an MM.  Its very hard to keep up with a team during missions and TFs.  TP improvements should make this better or its not an improvement in my mind.

[ABlueThingy]

21 hours ago, dtj714 said:

Ok, my bad on the “no interest” thing. So let me ask you this - as a TP fan, would you think LRTP was crap if it went to the all the destinations currently on the accolade power, plus Perez, Boomtown, TV, Crey’s (no idea why those are skipped), Eden and Zulu (maybe via unlocks), and had its activation time cut in half (which I think is a big part of the problem because yes, by the time 12 seconds go by, you can be there by some other multi-step process)?

 

If we were playing in Issue 1 I would agree that LRTP would be an interesting if quirky thematic power.  But too many other travel methods exist now. 

 

Before, when the tram lines were broken in two, no base portals, no Oro Portals, no wormholes, No ninja/beast run, you had to wait for the tram to arrive to actually get on it.  Back then?  When getting from Atlas to a Hami raid was actually kind of a pain. Back when you had to walk up hill both ways to get to Brickstown. Yeah, instantly beaming to another zone would be a very nice time saver. It would make you feel like YOU were the teleporting master.  All the plebians must walk and take public transit.  BUT YOU can beam in and out like a boss.

 

Except now every can beam everywhere. Yeah LRTP saves you time, but it's time measured in seconds, not tens of minutes.  It has been devalued and the only way to restore it's value would be to ruin everyone else's travel experience.  Spending a power slot to be tens of seconds faster then the other guy when crossing 15 zones just... seems like a waste.

 

21 hours ago, dtj714 said:

All the other “supplemental” travel options are or where gated behind something - Vet or Market, long recharges, limited uses, etc.  Much of that has been reduced or eliminated, but they still could have made LRTP useful or at least improved.

Hypothetically you could let LRTP send you directly to missions or contacts or other players in other zones.  But I dunno if the game can even do that.  Or if that would be a good idea.

21 hours ago, dtj714 said:

Isn’t this the first time they have actually removed a power from a set, pool or otherwise?

The Presence Pool used to have a single target taunt, replaced with a placate

 

The Leaping Pool used to have High Jump and Long Jump, fused into Super Jump and Acrobatics added in(+jump Speed and +jump Height are two different stats)

 

The Fitness pool was technically removed as a choice and given to all players, similar to LRTP. (Frankly I wish it was option like LRTP)

 

Gravity Control's Wormhole used to be a group recall friend I believe. I think originally was limited range, then zone wide. Name remained the same but the effect was drastically changed.

 

Mind Control's Telekinesis used to be a toggle +fly to another player.  As long as they stayed near you they could fly. I forget if it had the -acc fly used to. Name is the same but it's a WILDLY different power now.

 

I want to say that the Blaster secondaries have had powers scrapped or wildly changed but I'm blanking.

 

I'm sure there's more but that's just off the top of my head.  They were worthless power choices but they sure are thematic.  I would love the option to pick those powers up again via badges.

[ABlueThingy]

Two suggestions

 

Rename Team Teleport to "Tactical Teleporting" and have it give you three powers. Team TP, Recall Team, Recall Pets, Team TP(pet only) and LRTP

 

or

 

No badge, just give LRTP to anyone who picks up at least... what 3 or 4 powers out of the TP pool?

 

 

First one gives value to Team TP which is kind of needed.  In addition to more options for thematic teleporting. Maybe none of those can be sloted they just have decent base stats or something.

 

Second one is the simple answer.

[Koopak]

50 minutes ago, ABlueThingy said:

Two suggestions

 

Rename Team Teleport to "Tactical Teleporting" and have it give you three powers. Team TP, Recall Team, Recall Pets, Team TP(pet only) and LRTP

 

or

 

No badge, just give LRTP to anyone who picks up at least... what 3 or 4 powers out of the TP pool?

 

 

First one gives value to Team TP which is kind of needed.  In addition to more options for thematic teleporting. Maybe none of those can be sloted they just have decent base stats or something.

 

Second one is the simple answer.

I'm a fan of both of these solutions. While id still have to sacrifice a power pick in the first one, the utility of having Recall Team, alone would make it worth the price of admission, and the two pet focused portals could make MM's lives much easier. There are alot of ways it could be implemented as well to address any balance concerns.

The second option rewards investment in the TP pool as well without necessarily forcing you to pick powers with no combat value. My only concern is the fact that it would break parity with other travel powers by giving you that little extra. I don't think it bad, but I can see it being received poorly.

[SeraphimKensai]

How does the magnitude of Teleport Target and Shadow Recall have on a various targets in PVE and PVP? Does teleporting a hostile target still require an to hit/accuracy check?

[ScarySai]

It does, and +3 bosses still can't be ported with mag 4 ports.

 

Be nice if control ATs could get past that.

[Ironblade]

3 hours ago, ABlueThingy said:

Rename Team Teleport to "Tactical Teleporting" and have it give you three powers. Team TP, Recall Team, Recall Pets, Team TP(pet only) and LRTP

This sounds like a REALLY good idea.  It might need some tweaking because that sounds like a lot of 'bang' for one power pick.  But it's a good direction to think about.

 

 

As for removing LRTP. . .  I'm of two minds on this.  I have never taken this power on any character because it seemed so useless.  But that's me.  To remove it from the people that wanted it enough to take it (and the previous power picks to open it up) just feels like a really HORRIBLE development decision.  Of course, there's an important metric about which I have no information.  How many people actually took it?  For all I know, only 35 players ever took the power and they're all here screaming on the forums about it.  Hopefully this was data-mined and taken into consideration.

 

Having said that, would it be an option to expand the Teleportation pool to SIX powers - adding the new fifth power but also keeping LRTP?

[ScarySai]

LRTP isn't being removed, don't know where you got that idea.

[aethereal]

1 hour ago, Ironblade said:

This sounds like a REALLY good idea.  It might need some tweaking because that sounds like a lot of 'bang' for one power pick.  But it's a good direction to think about.

 

 

As for removing LRTP. . .  I'm of two minds on this.  I have never taken this power on any character because it seemed so useless.  But that's me.  To remove it from the people that wanted it enough to take it (and the previous power picks to open it up) just feels like a really HORRIBLE development decision.  Of course, there's an important metric about which I have no information.  How many people actually took it?  For all I know, only 35 players ever took the power and they're all here screaming on the forums about it.  Hopefully this was data-mined and taken into consideration.

 

Having said that, would it be an option to expand the Teleportation pool to SIX powers - adding the new fifth power but also keeping LRTP?

LRTP is still available as an accolade power for picking up all the exploration badges in a zone.

[Blackbird71]

I believe they meant "removed from the teleport power pool."

[Ironblade]

1 hour ago, ScarySai said:

LRTP isn't being removed, don't know where you got that idea.

BS.

1 hour ago, aethereal said:

LRTP is still available as an accolade power for picking up all the exploration badges in a zone.

People need to stop saying this nonsense.

It's being locked behind literally HOURS of running around getting badges if you want more than a handful of zones.  That's not being 'moved' somewhere; that's a completely different mechanic than picking it from a power pool.

 

Doing this to the people that took it as a pool power is CRAPPY.  The only possible ameliorating factor is that it might be a tiny, tiny number of people who took it.  But I don't know that and neither do you.

[Replacement]

3 minutes ago, Ironblade said:

BS.

People need to stop saying this nonsense.

It's being locked behind literally HOURS of running around getting badges if you want more than a handful of zones.  That's not being 'moved' somewhere; that's a completely different mechanic than picking it from a power pool.

 

Doing this to the people that took it as a pool power is CRAPPY.  The only possible ameliorating factor is that it might be a tiny, tiny number of people who took it.  But I don't know that and neither do you.

BS. People need to stop saying this nonsense.

 

Homecoming knows how many people are affected.  Them moving forward with the change should tell you something.

 

And those people get 1-3 power choices back, depending on how much they were "in it" for LRTP. 

[macskull]

6 minutes ago, Ironblade said:

Doing this to the people that took it as a pool power is CRAPPY.  The only possible ameliorating factor is that it might be a tiny, tiny number of people who took it.  But I don't know that and neither do you.

The people who made the change do know that, which is probably why the change was made in the first place.

[Koopak]

27 minutes ago, Ironblade said:

BS.

People need to stop saying this nonsense.

It's being locked behind literally HOURS of running around getting badges if you want more than a handful of zones.  That's not being 'moved' somewhere; that's a completely different mechanic than picking it from a power pool.

 

Doing this to the people that took it as a pool power is CRAPPY.  The only possible ameliorating factor is that it might be a tiny, tiny number of people who took it.  But I don't know that and neither do you.

Someone in the thread for the accolade already did the math, a near worst case scenario is 5 mins per zone unlock, with most being 2 mins or less. There are 27 possible locations if you are a rogue or vigilante, that means a worst case is 2.25 hours of work. For a hero only which is the majority of characters its only 1 hour 10 mins for the worst case. Cut those in half for something more like a realistic estimate. You spend more time doing a single TF of which you need half a dozen for other Accolades. Up to you how you value +5% max hp vs Teleport anywhere. And none of that considers the fact that you likely wont use every single location and thus dont need the,

Edited October 30, 2020 by Koopak

[aethereal]

21 minutes ago, Koopak said:

Someone in the thread for the accolade already did the math, a near worst case scenario is 5 mins per zone unlock, with most being 2 mins or less. There are 27 possible locations if you are a rogue or vigilante, that means a worst case is 2.25 hours of work. For a hero only which is the majority of characters its only 1 hour 10 mins for the worst case. Cut those in half for something more like a realistic estimate. You spend more time doing a single TF of which you need half a dozen for other Accolades. Up to you how you value +5% max hp vs Teleport anywhere. And none of that considers the fact that you likely wont use every single location and thus dont need the,

 

I mean, I'm not upset about the accolade power change, but I ran around and got the Atlas Park ones a couple days ago so that I could easily move my beta character back to getting P2W double XP, and it took me considerably more than 5 minutes.