Focused Feedback: Teleportation Pool Revamp

[DoctorDitko]

6 minutes ago, Vanden said:

Isn't the 4-second phase going to take care of that?

I take it you aren't a Verizon victim subscriber? I've had lag attacks that last for ten seconds, easily.

It helps, don't get me wrong, but a stationary Hover that cancels on move wouldn't exactly unbalance the game.

[Wavicle]

5 minutes ago, arthurh35353 said:

It actively helps melee powersets that are balanced around having more mobs in melee for survivability. So no, it actually does help some people in melee solo quite a bit.

Read my comment again.

 

I didn't say it doesn't help anyone solo.

I said how much it helps solo is not relevant.

[Dragon Crush]

36 minutes ago, arthurh35353 said:

I'm pretty sure I'm going to be a bit unpopular for Fold Space as a 'good' power, but not only does it step on Wormhole's job it is actively making things easier for ATs that need the least help in game. And is actively dangerous to people that can't survive up to 16 mobs aggro. So it's basically only helpful in helping people level faster and easier to those that... actually need it the least.

 

For traps, it might be a nice buff to an AT powerset. Maybe give Time bomb a half power version so that it isn't a waste.

 

I'm just a bit inured at this point. The Devs think this is a a great way to add combat power to Teleport, except its still much better for some people than others. Then in 6+ months they are going to discover that players have used it to break some trial or task force to make it utterly trivial and then they'll be forced to 'rebalance it' so that its not as good, which will just upset everyone again.

Aside from those who can just take the pounding, electric controllers can lay down static field and then fold enemies into it where they'll be slept and drained, traps can drag stuff to acid mortar, can pull mobs back after they crawl out of a caltrops patch, rain of fire or whatever other patch/rain they're trying to flee, ninja stalkers can use it and immediately smoke flash, MMs can use it with bodyguard to help melee pets along....

 

There are plenty of uses other than farmer farms faster. Bleeding edge players will always be ahead but there's no reason rest of us can't make use of nice things with a little creativity.

[DoctorDitko]

2 hours ago, Dragon Crush said:

there's no reason rest of us can't make use of nice things with a little creativity.

Agreed!

I think it's worth pointing out that this is a unique power effect. Creative players will find entirely unexpected ways to play with this new toy.

New toys are cool.

[Arcadio]

3 hours ago, arthurh35353 said:

I'm pretty sure I'm going to be a bit unpopular for Fold Space as a 'good' power, but not only does it step on Wormhole's job it is actively making things easier for ATs that need the least help in game. And is actively dangerous to people that can't survive up to 16 mobs aggro. So it's basically only helpful in helping people level faster and easier to those that... actually need it the least.

 

For traps, it might be a nice buff to an AT powerset. Maybe give Time bomb a half power version so that it isn't a waste.

 

I'm just a bit inured at this point. The Devs think this is a a great way to add combat power to Teleport, except its still much better for some people than others. Then in 6+ months they are going to discover that players have used it to break some trial or task force to make it utterly trivial and then they'll be forced to 'rebalance it' so that its not as good, which will just upset everyone again.

Wormhole is a Birkin, FS is a ziplock IMO. There's no stepping on Wormhole because FS isn't seeing the degree of control you have over enemies' positioning, nor is it disabling them. And if you can't take 16 mob aggro, why are you soloing missions where they spawn in groups of 16? Also, does hover not benefit range classes more? Group fly? Unleash Potential, Rune of Protection, Acrobatics? They're all more useful to some archetypes.

[WindDemon21]

Haven't checked this thread in a while but if it's still there it REALLY irks me that CT has a cooldown at all. I really only see this being an issue in pvp, which it can just be flagged in pvp for the cooldown.

 

Having a period where you can't use it no matter how small pushes me away from getting it versus combat jumping or hover which have no hangup with continued use. That and the lack of even a small defense buff like cj/hover which I would much rather have than the to hit.

[...]

I really love combat teleport.

 

I won't use it.

 

The movement advantage is similar to CJ and Hover, but doesn't allow for LoTG slotting or a defense buff (both of which my builds always need more of). I'd use it in some builds if it provided defense. As is, it's a poor pick relative to CJ/Hover.

 

Fold space is cool. I'd like to see a shorter cooldown.

 

If combat teleport could be used in Nova and Dwarf, then I'd pick it up on my warshade.

 

I'd love it if fold space could be used in dwarf form. That would make me pick it up for sure. Human form only... maybe for eclipse grouping?

 

[WindDemon21]

I also worry that with multiple people on a team having fold space it ends up being a constant grab for mob clumps.

[DoctorDitko]

18 minutes ago, WindDemon21 said:

I also worry that with multiple people on a team having fold space it ends up being a constant grab for mob clumps.

Understood. I can see that happening, but is that a Fold Space problem, or a teaming problem?

Wouldn't minimal communication keep this from being an issue?

 

Granted, there is no game mechanic that can solve Toxic Group Syndrome, but one can always hope for a player-based solution.

Edited November 3, 2020 by DoctorDitko

[Replacement]

4 hours ago, DoctorDitko said:

Play nice, kids!

Plus, some of us were using Gravity since before Wormhole was added!

 

Replacement, I like most of your ideas, but why not have the Hover last until you decide to move? Lag seldom kills super-speedsters, fliers, or super-leapers. Why should it be able to doom Teleporters? 

I find I actually want to move a bit, from time to time.

 

I've been grabbing teleport on a lot of my test characters, just getting to fold space, so my views on regular ol' tp are reinvigorated.  And I find one of the things missing is minor course-correction. Ending a teleport just outside of range of a mission door, for example. 

Another example would be trying to veer around a building in two hops but your 1st doesn't quite clear it, so you end up making a 3-hop turn instead of 2.

 

I think that would be more valuable, and ultimately more in flavor, than an infinite directionless hover.

[WindDemon21]

31 minutes ago, DoctorDitko said:

Understood. I can see that happening, but is that a Fold Space problem, or a teaming problem?

Wouldn't minimal communication keep this from being an issue?

 

Granted, there is no game mechanic that can solve Toxic Group Syndrome, but one can always hope for a player-based solution.

There are always trolls. I dont even like having a gravity troller on the team most of the time unless it's me cause it ruins lots aoe, mez, and debuff placements.

[DoctorDitko]

10 minutes ago, WindDemon21 said:

There are always trolls. I dont even like having a gravity troller on the team most of the time unless it's me cause it ruins lots aoe, mez, and debuff placements.

Probably my characters.

In any event, my apologies on behalf of all the Gravity controllers!

(Although, it should be mentioned, we can be taught to play nicely.) 

[Wavicle]

Probably Fold Space should impose a debuff that makes it impossible to Fold Space on the same mobs again within a certain time period. Say 20 seconds, maybe.

[Hew]

I REALLY doubt you will see more than one person on a team with FS, given the amount of complaints about pre-req costs.

[ScarySai]

I do really think teleport itself needs some sort of usability fix to it, at the very least.

 

Like, you can argue combat teleport handles the indoor traveling part, but I would argue that you shouldn't need two powers for a single travel pool to be functional for the purposes of travel.

Edited November 4, 2020 by ScarySai

[Blackfeather]

Hmm...perhaps Teleport could allow for traversing through obstacles/structures? I'm not sure how that'd be implemented though - visualising it as making things temporarily transparent, allowing you to target something on the other side, or something like that.

Edited November 4, 2020 by Blackfeather

[Luminara]

12 minutes ago, Blackfeather said:

Hmm...perhaps Teleport could allow for traversing through obstacles/structures? I'm not sure how that'd be implemented though - visualising it as making things temporarily transparent, allowing you to target something on the other side, or something like that.

 

The engine doesn't allow that.  In fact, I don't think I'd be off the mark in saying that it was specifically designed to prevent it.  Obstacles would have to be actually removed in some way, because even if they were rendered without textures, thereby making them invisible, the geometry would still be present.

 

Phase shifting could, theoretically, be adapted to work on geometry, but it would require completely new code and significant revision of a major part of the engine to integrate it.

[Blackfeather]

1 minute ago, Luminara said:

The engine doesn't allow that.  In fact, I don't think I'd be off the mark in saying that it was specifically designed to prevent it.  Obstacles would have to be actually removed in some way, because even if they were rendered without textures, thereby making them invisible, the geometry would still be present.

 

Phase shifting could, theoretically, be adapted to work on geometry, but it would require completely new code and significant revision of a major part of the engine to integrate it.

Yup, yup, had a feeling that was the case, was spitballing ideas. I figured that one big thing that teleporters can do in fiction and so on would be that obstacle traversal stuff, but that makes sense.

[DoctorDitko]

We can traverse obstacles, just not go through them. If you can lay a targeting reticule down, you can go there. Not as nifty as matter penetration, but not sneeze-worthy.

[Luminara]

25 minutes ago, Blackfeather said:

Yup, yup, had a feeling that was the case, was spitballing ideas. I figured that one big thing that teleporters can do in fiction and so on would be that obstacle traversal stuff, but that makes sense.

 

A waypoint marker system would be easier to implement.  The mini-map would need to be adapted to allow multiple waypoints to be selected, so the player could create a route, and TP would have to be reworked to make it use waypoints, but the actual teleporting from waypoint to waypoint would be dead easy, that's just a command to fire up TP again after X.X seconds.  It would be up to the player to lay out the route without kissing buildings or cliff faces, or my private highway (power lines).

[ScarySai]

An animation reduction would be simple, but potentially good as well. Really, that's the core of the problem, it's great for travel, but due to how slow it is to animate and it's very all-or-nothing nature, it's kinda crap unless you're going in a totally straight line in an open area.

[Luigrein]

Yeah as has been said, teleport technically already ignore obstacles.  If you can get your cursor there and it's a valid target area you don't need line of sight from your character.  It was the premier power for getting outside the map for that reason.  If I recall correctly, and it's been a while so I may not, the "reflection" on the floor of city hall was actually a translucent floor with a mirrored city hall underneath it.  It was once upon a time possible to teleport down there and do things like sit on the "ceiling" for screenshots. Practically with a camera anchored on our character your ability to pull off out of line of sight teleports is limited.  I'm not sure the camera CAN be un anchored from our character but it's another potential way to boost teleport.

[WindDemon21]

1 minute ago, Luigrein said:

Yeah as has been said, teleport technically already ignore obstacles.  If you can get your cursor there and it's a valid target area you don't need line of sight from your character.  It was the premier power for getting outside the map for that reason.  If I recall correctly, and it's been a while so I may not, the "reflection" on the floor of city hall was actually a translucent floor with a mirrored city hall underneath it.  It was once upon a time possible to teleport down there and do things like sit on the "ceiling" for screenshots. Practically with a camera anchored on our character your ability to pull off out of line of sight teleports is limited.  I'm not sure the camera CAN be un anchored from our character but it's another potential way to boost teleport.

However this doesn't work with the powexeclocation bind. If the target isn't in LOS, you'll just tp into the same place.

[aethereal]

1 hour ago, WindDemon21 said:

However this doesn't work with the powexeclocation bind. If the target isn't in LOS, you'll just tp into the same place.

Don't believe that's true in beta, though I didn't check it with actual teleport, just combat teleport.

[Monos King]

Just a side note: Currently when you previously had Teleport Foe you are given Combat Teleport instead of Teleport Target as the default replacement. Should probably be Teleport Target, and save people a respec.