Focused Feedback: Blaster Secondary Revamp

[Super Homer]

10 hours ago, Recovery8 said:

Unintended or not you have to admit it has become something that the community liked about Tac Arrow. It's an archery set, archers don't typically go and bop people in the face with their arrows, despite what TV might show you. I would ask that you reconsider your choices here and just give it back the range it had and make it *two* sets with increased range as with these changes sticking I'll be another one shelfing my tac arrow character. It's just way too noticeable and doesn't feel right with the sets grown identity. Sometimes what wasn't intended ends up being what is. 

50 feet is far from walking to them and popping an arrow on their heads. Plus, there are range enhancements.

[Chris24601]

You know, just for the sake of exploring options... other than institutional inertia, what is the rationale for ANY Blaster secondary single target immobilizes being just 50’ instead of the same 80’ as their primary attacks?

 

As has been mentioned, even if you copy/pasted a ST immobilize (or hold) direct from a Controller primary, the combination of AT modifiers for duration and lack of AT buffs (containment, domination) would put that power significantly behind what a Controller or Dominator could accomplish (in addition to having other control powers to stack on like their AoE immobilize/hold.

 

This whole subsection of changes we’re giving feedback to is essentially a balance pass on all the Blaster secondaries and part of that was a statement that some sets were undertuned and need improvement.

 

So, what if part of that balance pass was just taking all those ranges for the ST mezzes up to the same base range as the primary attacks? The sets would then still be balanced with one another and more range on those abilities wouldn’t change the way those sets currently play (you can always be closer than max range) and still wouldn’t be stronger than the options available to actual control-focused ATs.

 

Just a thought for a different way to look at things.

[Frostbiter]

The changes to Tactical Arrow really should be split off into it's own thread. It's dominating this one.

[Indystruck]

14 hours ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

some like Mind and Dark will require an enemy to use.

 

womp womp. oh well, at least working on a miss happens now, I guess.

[Vulpoid]

Please do not make the proposed changes to Tactical Arrow.
There is no reason to tear something down in order to make something else feel better about itself.
A just society does not disable its members to meet the lowest common denominator.

[See Kurt Vonnegut's short story Harrison Bergeron ] 
Attached

Edited October 27, 2020 by Vulpoid

[Indystruck]

2 hours ago, Super Homer said:

50 feet is far from walking to them and popping an arrow on their heads. Plus, there are range enhancements.

You'd have to slot for range specifically, since there is no +Range in any ranged damage IO set that isn't a 10-25 set. So you'd have to dedicate 2 50+5 range IOs to get the old distance, which is 33% of the amount you can slot. 

[Chris24601]

58 minutes ago, Frostbiter said:

The changes to Tactical Arrow really should be split off into it's own thread. It's dominating this one.

I don't disagree. Until then though, here we are.

 

Now, I've done some more testing and with two Level 50+5 Range IO's into ENA you're back to about 97% of the pre-nerf range (and ED is hitting it HARD at that point). But if you previously had it slotted using a set you'll feel it in lost set bonuses (7% speed, 2.5% ranged defense from my Thunderstrike) AND in the base numbers (damage mod down to 91%, end reduction down to just 22%, acc down to about 30%). Ice Arrow at a base of 60' slotted with a single 50+5 Range IO gets you back to 79.15' and the set bonus disparity is similarly less extreme (in my case it only cost me some resistance and the "chance for absorb" proc).

 

And there's still the occasional hiccup if you're nudging yourself right up to the edge of the range and this is, ironically, because set bonuses to range actually INCREASE the disparity rather than reduce it (i.e. 80' w. +10% from a set bonus is 88'... 50' w. +56% from enhancements and +10% from a set bonus is only 83'... so without the set bonus they're within 2' of each other... after the set bonus they're now 5' apart from each other).

 

So, if the range thing is something the devs have a hard "No" on regardless of how much dissatisfaction is registered, then for the sake of smooth play I'd actually recommend AGAINST adding additional range increase set bonuses beyond the one you get from Blaster's Wrath as while they'll increase the overall range, you'll feet that lag where your Archery Arrows are firing off but getting the Out of Range "woomp" from ENA and Ice Arrow because you're actually sitting at 85'.

 

Because of that sloppiness I'd still much prefer the 80' ranges be maintained, but I also bring this up because of the desire to maintain the range component, the changes to ENA and Ice Arrow may not actually end up nerfing the things they're trying to nerf (ex. I'm trading some extra END cost, a few points of damage, 2 mph off my hover speed and dropping my range defense by 2.5%).

 

I'd also recommend that the Hold on robots portion of the ESD arrow be changed over to Stun to match the effect on everyone else simply because of the slotting issues that having it take both Stun and Hold enhancements and needing both to gain full effect causes. AoE stun is still a good panic button for those who use it that way and, again, makes the slotting less problematic.

 

If it goes live as is though, I'd suggest changing the slotting to Stun simply because the number of non-robot enemies definitely outnumbers the number of robots (even though this, ironically, means your ESD arrow is LESS effective against robots than fleshy bags of mostly water).

[zenblack]

1 minute ago, Indystruck said:

You'd have to slot for range specifically, since there is no +Range in any ranged damage IO set that isn't a 10-25 set. So you'd have to dedicate 2 50+5 range IOs to get the old distance, which is 33% of the amount you can slot. 

You'd be looking at Centriole Exposure. Currently the best you can get is +2, 36.7% damage, 22.0% Range.

[Vanden]

15 minutes ago, zenblack said:

You'd be looking at Centriole Exposure. Currently the best you can get is +2, 36.7% damage, 22.0% Range.

Actually, with the enhancement changes in this patch you can get them to 53, for 38.3% Damage and 23% range.

[Mystic Fortune]

1 hour ago, Frostbiter said:

The changes to Tactical Arrow really should be split off into it's own thread. It's dominating this one.

It was terrible foresight not to have a focused thread for every Blaster Secondary that was affected in this update.

 

That said, I think the ENA change is being blown way out of proportion. The implication that the tier 1 of a Blaster secondary set is seen as such a 'core' power of the set, that any changes made to said power that are perceived as negative would therefore render the set 'unplayable' is a text book case of hyperbole.

[zenblack]

6 minutes ago, Vanden said:

Actually, with the enhancement changes in this patch you can get them to 53, for 38.3% Damage and 23% range.

Which is why I said currently.

[Super Homer]

54 minutes ago, Indystruck said:

You'd have to slot for range specifically, since there is no +Range in any ranged damage IO set that isn't a 10-25 set. So you'd have to dedicate 2 50+5 range IOs to get the old distance, which is 33% of the amount you can slot. 

 

But a lot of people are saying they would take a nerf to the power for more range. Why not dedicate more slotting for range instead of damage or duration?

[kenlon]

2 hours ago, Frostbiter said:

The changes to Tactical Arrow really should be split off into it's own thread. It's dominating this one.

I agree with this. 

 

13 minutes ago, Super Homer said:

But a lot of people are saying they would take a nerf to the power for more range. Why not dedicate more slotting for range instead of damage or duration?

Because having to eat up slots on pure range boosting removes the ability to slot sets in those places. Which is a reasonable thing to complain about, if  /TA's range advantage is a core part of why you liked the set to begin with.

[Captain Powerhouse]

1 hour ago, Chris24601 said:

If it goes live as is though, I'd suggest changing the slotting to Stun simply because the number of non-robot enemies definitely outnumbers the number of robots (even though this, ironically, means your ESD arrow is LESS effective against robots than fleshy bags of mostly water).

 

The power can stun all targets equally. In addition to the stun, electronic targets can be held.

 

As for the thread, i personally prefer to retain all blaster sets in this single thread. I already find it a bit hard to jump between the two separate energy melee threads.

[Blackbird71]

I said I was done, but there are some new thoughts I wanted to weigh in on.

 

First, a big +1 to Tac Arrow needing its own feedback thread.  There is a lot to talk about with this set, and it definitely gets in the way of the other blaster secondary changes.

 

1 hour ago, Chris24601 said:

I'd also recommend that the Hold on robots portion of the ESD arrow be changed over to Stun to match the effect on everyone else simply because of the slotting issues that having it take both Stun and Hold enhancements and needing both to gain full effect causes. AoE stun is still a good panic button for those who use it that way and, again, makes the slotting less problematic.

 

I'd prefer to keep it all hold, if for no other reason than the Lockdown: Chance for +2 Mag Hold enhancement.  This is a boon that sometimes makes bad situations a little easier to survive, particularly in light of the Mag changes on ESD.  Without it, the power is significantly less useful at higher difficulties.

 

53 minutes ago, Super Homer said:

 

But a lot of people are saying they would take a nerf to the power for more range. Why not dedicate more slotting for range instead of damage or duration?

 

ENA advocates are talking about reducing the strength of a single power; slotting as you suggest reduces set bonuses that affect all of a character's powers.  This is not an equivalent tradeoff.

 

17 minutes ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

 

The power can stun all targets equally. In addition to the stun, electronic targets can be held.

 

 

Until you account for slotting - unless you Frankenslot, you can only slot for either stun or hold, not both.  As I mentioned above, this removes the ability to use Lockdown: Chance for +2 Mag Hold on most targets.

 

Edit:  I had to go back and check to be sure, but this is the original i27 note on ESD arrow:

 

Quote

Added Stun against non robots:

Non-robots; that would indicate that ESD arrow does NOT stun all targets equally.

 

 

Edited October 27, 2020 by Blackbird71

[Chris24601]

1 hour ago, Mystic Fortune said:

That said, I think the ENA change is being blown way out of proportion. The implication that the tier 1 of a Blaster secondary set is seen as such a 'core' power of the set, that any changes made to said power that are perceived as negative would therefore render the set 'unplayable' is a text book case of hyperbole.

The thing is, unlike a lot of other MMO's your tier 1 & 2 powers are still relevant and useful at higher levels. The Live devs called them "bread & butter" powers for a reason.

 

One reason ENA is such is that you start with it... and unlike a lot of other MMO's, the journey to 50 is as, or even more, important to the play experience as what it looks like at max level. You won't pick up Gymnastics until Level 28, you won't have ESD Arrow until level 35 and Oil Slick Arrow until level 38 at the earliest. Similarly, you'll lose those if you exemp 5 levels below where you picked them up. Wanna run a Posi 1? Kiss your level 22+ power picks goodbye for the duration.

 

Side-bar: This is also ANOTHER reason to argue in favor of keeping the base range at 80'. Because even two 50+5 IOs can't quite get it back to 80'... so the range will be even less when you're leveling up and the best you can slot are 20's, 30's and 40's.

 

The second reason ENA is a bread & butter power is that its got such a short recharge compared to the rest of your kit (Ice and Flash being the only others that can be slotted to be useful more than once per fight). Short recharge means you'll use it A LOT. I literally use it every third shot in my rotation... so not just 99% of my Tac Arrow use comes from ENA, but 33% of my overall attacks are ENA.

 

THAT is pretty darned 'core' by any reasonable definition.

[Runebound]

On the more general topic of CC changes, could we get clarification on the impact from someone who knows more about the mechanics than I do?

• How does the Scale affect duration? Does a Scale 12 last twice as long as a Scale 6, or is there another variable in the formula?
• What is the Protection level of various mobs (3 for Lieutenants like on this ParagonWiki page, or 2 like on this other ParagonWiki page)? And does Protection increase by +1 with each level above yours?

 

Depending on the answers to the above, it looks like the patch primarily affects options for Bosses and above.  A solo player using Time Stop can still hold even-level Minions and Lieutenants (if the second link is correct about needing to exceed the listed Protection levels, so 2 + 1 > 2), though a bit shorter in duration. Is that right?

 

•  Time Stop
  • Hold changed from Mag 3, Scale 8 to:
    • Mag 2, Scale 10 (non stacking)
    • Mag 1, Scale 6 (stacking)

 

Tougher targets become less accessible for solo players, though. It now takes four castings to hold a Boss (2 + 1 + 1 +1 >3) instead of two (3 + 3 >3). Before the patch, a /Time (or /Plant or  /Ninja, etc) Blaster could hold an EB if able to get off three casts (3 + 3 + 3 > 6), but now it would take six to CC an even-level EB (2 + 1 + 1 + 1  +1 +1 > 6), making it more of a team option.

 

Is that right?

 

Edited October 27, 2020 by Runebound

[Vanden]

6 minutes ago, Runebound said:

Is that right?

No, the non-stacking aspect only applies to when it's reapplied by the same caster. Generally, even powers that are set to not stack will still stack from different casters.

[csr]

On 10/24/2020 at 5:41 AM, Jimmy said:

Tactical Arrow

•  ESD Arrow
  • Hold now only applies to robots.
  • Hold changed from Mag 3, Scale 8 to:
    • Mag 2, Scale 8 (non stacking)
    • Mag 1, Scale 5 (stacking)
  • Added Stun against non robots:
    • Mag 2, Scale 8 (non stacking)
    • Mag 1, Scale 5 (stacking)
  • Now accepts Stun enhancements and sets

(Bold and red text added.)

2 hours ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

The power can stun all targets equally. In addition to the stun, electronic targets can be held.

The Patch Notes are a bit misleading then.

[Captain Powerhouse]

Poorly phrased, sorry, that is my bad. I phrased that way because you will often see a robot held and, given the identical scale, not notice them stunned. If you enhance for stun, the stun becomes longer duration than the hold. Once the hold wares off, the stun will be still in effect.

[Lockpick]

2 hours ago, Chris24601 said:

The thing is, unlike a lot of other MMO's your tier 1 & 2 powers are still relevant and useful at higher levels. The Live devs called them "bread & butter" powers for a reason.

 

One reason ENA is such is that you start with it... and unlike a lot of other MMO's, the journey to 50 is as, or even more, important to the play experience as what it looks like at max level. You won't pick up Gymnastics until Level 28, you won't have ESD Arrow until level 35 and Oil Slick Arrow until level 38 at the earliest. Similarly, you'll lose those if you exemp 5 levels below where you picked them up. Wanna run a Posi 1? Kiss your level 22+ power picks goodbye for the duration.

 

Side-bar: This is also ANOTHER reason to argue in favor of keeping the base range at 80'. Because even two 50+5 IOs can't quite get it back to 80'... so the range will be even less when you're leveling up and the best you can slot are 20's, 30's and 40's.

 

The second reason ENA is a bread & butter power is that its got such a short recharge compared to the rest of your kit (Ice and Flash being the only others that can be slotted to be useful more than once per fight). Short recharge means you'll use it A LOT. I literally use it every third shot in my rotation... so not just 99% of my Tac Arrow use comes from ENA, but 33% of my overall attacks are ENA.

 

THAT is pretty darned 'core' by any reasonable definition.

 

I agree with all of these comments.  ENA for me is a bread and butter attack and has been since the very low levels.  I start off with Ranged Shot and then alternate Snap Shot, Aimed Shot, and ENA for my single target chain throwing in Ranged Shot as well.

 

The chain is particularly useful if I get mezzed.

[zenblack]

Feedback for Plant Manipulation (with unsolicited suggestions!)

 

Skewer - Great change. This was a good power with great slotting choices now it's much more smooth in the attack chain.

 

Strangler - These changes seem fine. It is noticeable that it is less reliable in using it for CC, but for attack chain purposes no real change.

 

Spore Cloud - Moving this down to T5 was a good change. I am perplexed at why it needs a scaled effect and I even don't understand it's overall lower -regen value. Regardless of it, I had hope/expected a lower cast time, 3.10 sec cast time seems excessive for what this power provides. My suggestion would either improve the -regeneration rate and/or lowering the cast time by 1 second. This is with the consideration that most of the animation time of this power is holding it's arm out and should be relatively easy to shave the frames.

 

Wild Fortress - My slotting Live is 118 per tick, Beta we have 35 per tick with a "absorb shield" max of 212.4 sustainable. In regards to just Plants this is a very large negative to survivability, however I have not tested it against the the spread of other secondaries and will wait until I have a better understanding of what the average is.

 

Vines - These changes are fine. The recharge was obviously off. I personally used this less because of it's AOE than it's mag, but it seems semi-unreliable which is what the Dev's were going for.

 

Thorn Burst - The animation change was very appreciated and made it much more attractive. Personally I hoped it's recharge and/or AOE would have been adjusted to allow it to be more friendly to procs (because it has some good ones like -res) but as is, it can't even reliably proc a 4.5ppm Armageddon.

 

-- Not changed but probably should be --

 

Toxins - This is currently the worst build-up and I was surprised it wasn't adjusted when looking at Plant. It's effect (Toxins) has a number of problems:

1.) It's a base value, so it's better with low damage powers but it scales extremely poorly, so you are getting huge reduction as opposed to other Build Up's when using heavy hitting powers and having a higher damage bonus.

2.)The Toxin's are also not effected by your current Damage Bonus and don't apply per dot tick (I think the original gimmick they were going for) so the damage is in the doldrums. My suggestion would be to (temporarily?) separate the effect from the power until it can be dealt with and assign it whatever Damage Bonus it should have (I assume anything that isn't Fire is below 100% so, 80-75%?).

 

Ripper - I was hoping this power was going to get at least a range buff (to 10ft) or # of targets (8). It's an excellent power and has a lot of potential in slotting but it's very small AOE really hampers trying to use it on a Blaster in particular. I don't think it would push the set out of balance to have some added usability given to this power.

Edited October 27, 2020 by zenblack

[Chris24601]

Okay, here's some more testing with some real numbers.

 

Level 50, if you don't have any range set bonuses beyond Blaster's Wrath, you can get the pre-nerf play style mostly back via two 50+5 Range IO's in ENA and one in Ice Arrow. This will, of course, remove the 5th and 6th set bonus from ENA and the 6th from Ice Arrow and slightly impact their performance in that you'll only have four/five slots instead of 6 for Acc/Dmg/Recharge/EndRdx.

 

If you're the type who used to creep right up the edge of the range bracket, you'll notice that ENA and Ice Arrow don't QUITE go as far as your Archery powers, but if you're just stopping at a distance that feels right (well beyond normal perception range... probably somewhere around 70-75') then you'll not notice the range difference and the rest of the performance issues are going to be a couple percent shaved off various attributes. The biggest one for me here is actually that I swapped the Thunderstrike in Snap Shot for my Blaster's Wrath in ENA simply because I wanted the full set bonuses, so ENA is now missing out on the fire damage proc.

 

So at level 50, its actually not too bad... 

 

...HOWEVER...

 

Exemping utterly KILLS it.

 

I used Oroboros to cross-check the effects and even with the above 50+5 Range slotting at level 9 (the lowest Oroboros could take me) the range crashes to 55.29' for ENA and 63.17' for Ice Arrow. At level 24 the same slotting will result in a range of 71.97' for ENA and 73.31' for Ice Arrow.

 

Level 32+ the Exemplar effects no longer apply so you're back into the initial "98% of pre-nerf values."

 

I offer these up primarily as data points. In terms of level affecting play style, its pretty significant, especially if you're planning on helping out with a Posi, Synapse or Yin TF.

 

And to reiterate from the previous data, if you slotted yourself up with a bunch of +range set bonuses it's going to be felt a LOT more than if you're just running the Blaster's Wrath range bump. My Archery/TA Blaster played a LOT smoother when I dumped the Barrage sets out Fistful of Arrows and Explosive Arrow (each gives a +5% set bonus to range). Likewise, using just Blaster's Wrath rather than the Superior variety (I tested with both on Test, but I only use the default on Live because unslotters on an inactive toon are cheaper than buying an entirely fresh set of ATO's for a new toon) made it smoother still as the ranges were short by about 4'.

 

* * * *

 

The other issue related to these changes is just the flat-out EXPENSE to the player in the form of needing a Respec (because when this goes live, if you had Gymnastics you'll now find yourself with Oil Slick Arrow slotted with Luck of the Gambler), 15 Enhancement Boosters (for the Range IOs) and to buy a Stun set to replace the Hold set that is currently in ESD Arrow and possibly some new Targeted AoE sets for Fistful of Arrows and Explosive Arrow due to the +range set bonuses actually making the primary problem of the range reduction (mismatched ranges) worse rather than better.

 

That's quite a bit to hang on players because the Devs decided to change which powers accepted which enhancements. Even with the freely available IO's and merit purchases it still took me the better part of an hour just to respec and make all the necessary purchases together.  If you didn't have a bunch of merits, influence and a respec banked when this went live you could be stuck with a very gimped build for quite a while... particularly if you're not someone who isn't rolling in billions of influence because they don't play the market.

 

I'd recommend at least a free respec like the Live devs used to throw up every time there was a major powers update and, with changes this extensive (multiple replacement IO's/IO sets), possibly even some merits to avoid the feeling of being doubly punished for changes we have no control over beyond our feedback here.

 

Note: You'd only need a respec to fix things if ESD Arrow applied a hold to everything (no need to replace the Hold slotting for Stun slotting) and left the ranges in ENA and Ice Arrow alone (no need to muck with Range IO+booster and replacing sets with +range set bonuses in them).

[HyperAi]

9 hours ago, Blackbird71 said:

I'll say one more thing on Tac Arrow and then I'm done in this thread.  I hope that @Captain Powerhouse and any other devs are paying attention not just to the comments here, but the reactions.  Going off of reactions, the opinions here seem to be overwhelmingly on the side of the TA changes going too far.  Just as one example, my original analysis on page 6 currently has 11 likes and is climbing every day.  Maybe TA isn't what was originally intended, and maybe some of the stats were "mistakes," but please recognize what TA has become, how it is played, and what it means to people.  In the end, I would ask what were these changes intended to improve, and what do they actually improve?  For many players, it's clear that they are making the play experience significantly worse. 

Honestly the range change doesn't bother me too much. I'm more excited about oil slick then anything. This coming from a player with a level 50 max incarnate arch/ta blaster with 800 badges. And even if the lack of range was a issue I could easily fix it. I would just find a way to split up Blaster Wrath into 2 powers and fit it into my build for a additional 20% increase to range. Then add 1 range IO to net arrow and I'm up to 72 range. Problem solved. Things have to be balanced and adjusted. Its a fact of pretty much any MMO out there. So I'll just balance and adjust to make it work for me.

[Draeth Darkstar]

Since people seem to really hate the range nerfs to the early TA powers - would it be considered an option to take away the bonus accuracy they get for being Archery powers and give them bonus range instead, like Psi powers usually get? I mean, I realize it's "off brand," for lack of a better term, but in theory those bonuses are supposed to be of equal value, so it should be a fair trade, right?

Edited October 28, 2020 by Draeth Darkstar