Focused Feedback: Other Powers Changes

[Mezmera]

7 hours ago, Carnifax said:

 Whirling Hands

• No longer yields double damage with Energy Focus active
• Instead it will instantly recharge the power

 

Domi Version : This is a horrible change. Changes Whirling Hands completely to a chunky "Splatter" to "Well I guess I'm going to watch this stupid animation forever". 

 

I'd much prefer if the Release mechanism stayed the same but the bonus damage was tamped down to 60-75% if it's overpowered currently. Having the option to cast it twice is pretty meaningless. 

Yeah and it already recharges super fast so instantly recharging feels like a big whoop.  For the insta recharge to feel useful they'd probably need to raise the base recharge on Whirling which should coincide with a damage increase due to the recharge rate increase so it'll likely be back to being "OP".  Any route they take with it I see there being one exploit or another other than this nerf.  I too would rather they just lowered the extra damage down to 75% and called it a day.   

Edited October 29, 2020 by Mezmera

[Captain Powerhouse]

The reason Whirling Hands got the double damage with focus was to compensate for the lack of a cone (second AoE.) Double damage was simply too much for this, since it suddenly allowed too much AoE damage in too quick a burst. Given the goal was to make up for a second AoE, having it auto-recharge allows it to be chained with itself, and delivers the initial result in a much more balanced way.

[Mezmera]

50 minutes ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

The reason Whirling Hands got the double damage with focus was to compensate for the lack of a cone (second AoE.) Double damage was simply too much for this, since it suddenly allowed too much AoE damage in too quick a burst. Given the goal was to make up for a second AoE, having it auto-recharge allows it to be chained with itself, and delivers the initial result in a much more balanced way.

Valid reasoning and I get where you're coming from about it being just a bit too good as it currently is.  The Energy revamp was so fun I remade my Mind/Nrg from live thanks to it so you guys did well with taking a low tier secondary and making it top tier. 

 

I think most of the doms more familiar with their Energy Assault don't see the instant recharge to be any real benefit because this attack likely recharges very fast already for them and they now will be doing half the damage per animation.  We don't want to get into an endless Whirling Hands loop just to get the same juice out of it as we had before.  Speaking from my experience I love the quick burst of damage and then being able to cycle to another power depending on what I need, cycling right back to Whirling feels like it'll be a bit counterproductive to the dom.    

 

Typically Energy attacks have the association of being strong in ST so I like what you're doing for the rest of the Energy powers out there.  It is tricky with the dom Whirling Hands as you say it's their only AoE and you've seem to have made it a bit too good.  I like that you're making the Energy Mechanic more fluid which'll make those ST attacks all the better so there's that.  

 

Because I see what's going to happen with the ST attacks I'm more inclined to not be as upset about what's going to happen to Whirling.  But it does seem like it's going to go back to being an underwhelming power in their arsenal.  

 

If I had the magic wand I'd probably work it out so that Whirling had a little bit higher recharge and leave in some of that extra damage.  The formula for more recharge equates to more damage I'd skew a bit lower on it and let some of that proc damage stay to compensate for some of that formula and a little bit extra.  So that when you're not using it in Energy Mode then it'll be a little below average based on the formula it should have and a bit above average when in Energy Mode.  I just think a lot will be put off by the habit it's going to try to force onto Energy doms.

 

That's just my two cents, all in all I like what you guys are doing with the revamped powersets.  Giving blasters a pbaoe -resistance debuff not so much.  

Edited October 29, 2020 by Mezmera

[Carnifax]

2 hours ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

The reason Whirling Hands got the double damage with focus was to compensate for the lack of a cone (second AoE.) Double damage was simply too much for this, since it suddenly allowed too much AoE damage in too quick a burst. Given the goal was to make up for a second AoE, having it auto-recharge allows it to be chained with itself, and delivers the initial result in a much more balanced way.

But its on a Domi. Domis build for recharge. So its recharging in (checks notes) 5 seconds for me anyway. 

 

As is its pretty meh and really feels like something very fun in Nrg assault has been battered back to mediocrity.

 

I mean a screen of "energy release" messages is so satisfying.

 

So id prefer stemming the damage down to something suitable (and so the mechanic fits with the other powers in the set) rather than changing how the power works completely (to a mechanic from a totally different set).

 

 

 

 

Edited October 29, 2020 by Carnifax

[Puma]

5 hours ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

The reason Whirling Hands got the double damage with focus was to compensate for the lack of a cone (second AoE.) Double damage was simply too much for this, since it suddenly allowed too much AoE damage in too quick a burst. Given the goal was to make up for a second AoE, having it auto-recharge allows it to be chained with itself, and delivers the initial result in a much more balanced way.

Too much AoE damage is subjective. 
 
 
Were we seeing a sudden glut of Energy Doms being created?  Or more appropriately, were we NOT seeing other doms being created suddenly because this was somehow so overpowering? 
 
"battered back to mediocrity" should be the name of issue 27.  

Edited October 30, 2020 by Puma

[Carnifax]

8 hours ago, Puma said:

Too much AoE damage is subjective. 
 
 
Were we seeing a sudden glut of Energy Doms being created?  Or more appropriately, were we NOT seeing other doms being created suddenly because this was somehow so overpowering? 
 
"battered back to mediocrity" should be the name of issue 27.  

Ah I dunno. I'm looking very forward indeed to new Trick Arrow.  Some powers are a little strange now but I really like and appreciate the concepts behind them and the fact they've tried to give it its own "flavour". 

 

But I do think this step for NRG Assault is the wrong way to go about things. Like I said just tame down the bonus damage in the AOE and keep the mechanism, because seeing a whole spawn get "DOMINATE" and then "ENERGY RELEASE" always gladdens my heart. 

 

[HornyBeast]

13 hours ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

The reason Whirling Hands got the double damage with focus was to compensate for the lack of a cone (second AoE.) Double damage was simply too much for this, since it suddenly allowed too much AoE damage in too quick a burst. Given the goal was to make up for a second AoE, having it auto-recharge allows it to be chained with itself, and delivers the initial result in a much more balanced way.

No it doesn't because you run out of endurance, energy assault already I'm finding very heavy on the endurance so using a sub par AoE twice to achieve the same result is a massive loss unless the chained ones cost a lot less end. Maybe have the extra damage as a DoT rather than up front if you're worried about the spike.

Also the dark melee changes utterly eviscerate the set for stalkers. Shadow maul was a valid opener from hide when it hit 10 targets (and that was when it tended to hit more than 5), the second AoE REALLY doesn't make up for that. That character is now basically a delete from a set that was already sub par being kicked in the nuts, I don't mind the change for other ATs.

I'm sorry I can only go from the patch notes as I can't get on the beta server as I don't have enough room on my SSD for another copy of the game.

[blayzemaster]

I'd also like to say the Whirling Hands change is too much. Double damage may be too much, but instant recharge does very little on most Dom builds, and raises the issue of endurance as others have said. Because of CCs having high costs, a lot of Doms may already be struggling, and those that don't probably already have masses of recharge anyway.

[Hopestar]

Make room for it, it's not that large of a game. 😛

Anyway, just wanted to echo that Shadow Maul while I understand the reasoning behind 10 targets reduced to 5 to be like every other cone like it, Touch of Fear is still really bad and doesn't make up for it in the slightest. With the activation time, half the DPA of Shadow Maul which is only OK for a Flurry power, it's not enough to help with the AoE damage for sacrificing Shadow Maul. Maybe if the -tohit wasn't single target and the damage wasn't only slightly above Soul Drain while being smaller radius than Shadow Maul AND a DoT, it would be acceptable to hurt Shadow Maul, but in it's current state, no. Even with all the procs it can have it's still only 66% of the damage of Shadow Maul for a 20% faster cast at 1 less range and I was under the impression that procs were something you wanted to change so they didn't make up most of the damage.

I appreciate another AoE in Dark Melee that's severely lacking, but I think you can implement it better without crippling other powers in the already crippled set. 🙂

[Carnifax]

2 hours ago, HornyBeast said:

No it doesn't because you run out of endurance, energy assault already I'm finding very heavy on the endurance so using a sub par AoE twice to achieve the same result is a massive loss unless the chained ones cost a lot less end. Maybe have the extra damage as a DoT rather than up front if you're worried about the spike.

I'm sorry I can only go from the patch notes as I can't get on the beta server as I don't have enough room on my SSD for another copy of the game.

DPE is a really good point here. My Fire/NRG leaks End constantly on Live, even with Health fully slotted up with uniques, Hotfeet slotted for End, Stamina slotted up as well AND Domination kicking in every 90 seconds. I can't even run a few of my toggles. Meanwhile my Ice/Fire blaster hasn't even bothered fully slotting out Stamina or Health beyond 1 slot and is just fine, runs more toggles and I don't even bother with Consume very often (only if its Malta or Carnies for the End protection).

 

Adding more End cost to NRG Assault really won't help. 

 

I did migrate that Domi to Beta to test the new changes, which is where my disappointment in this change is stemming from. Looks to me that NRG Assault is going to go the way of Martial Assault, from amazing to deeply mediocre. Can't we just lower it down from "OP with nice visuals" to "Decent with nice visuals"? (also throw Martial a bone, that set really got gutted)

[Coyote]

I will be using WH twice after one Total Focus, and have the Orb IO in it. This will create a lot of AoE "chance to Stun", and result in a lot of mezzing around me. Getting a 100% increase in the activations of WH will allow it to work better as a proc bomb with a lot more stunning and make it wortwhile to slot the Orb IO.

 

However, the arguments about Endurance use are spot on... Doms already burn Endurance fast in AoE situations. Increasing the set's AoE damage by allowing it to use the same AoE more often will make it hard to manage. I'm not sure that this is unfair, though... other Doms who have two AoEs still have to pay the Endurance for two power activations, and meanwhile they have to slot up two powers to do it, rather than one. It doesn't seem to me that Energy Assault is becoming sub-par in the AoE department, because:

1: WH is a mediocre AoE. I like the 20 second recharge as it allows for better proc usage, but the secondary effect is kinda weak (worse Stun than Fissure or Psy Shockwave AND with no other effect versus Knockdown and -Recharge).

2: but we only have to slot 1 power, not Fissure/Tremor or Psy Shockwave/Psy Scream.

 

In the end, I can live with this, it's reasonably balanced, though I would like to see the secondary effect be better balanced... increase the Stun chance to 50%, or the duration to something like Fissure's. If used with Energy Release, give it a chance to get an End Cost discount. Basically, something to make up for the weak secondary/tertiary effect, and I'd prefer some kind of End discount function since that seems more useful. But I wouldn't mind more Stunning.

 

Edit: oh, and one more thing... seeing Energy Release over a dozen victims is COOL. In this plan we're going to lose that... would it be possible to get an Energy Release effect coming out from the character, something like the EMP blast, to give a visual representation of the effect and make it stand out?

Edited October 30, 2020 by Coyote

[ScarySai]

21 hours ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

Double damage was simply too much for this, since it suddenly allowed too much AoE damage in too quick a burst. Given the goal was to make up for a second AoE, having it auto-recharge allows it to be chained with itself, and delivers the initial result in a much more balanced way.

Could this perhaps be done in another way, maybe just cut down the damage bonus? The instant recharge on something like WH is very underwhelming.

[Troo]

On 10/29/2020 at 9:47 AM, Mezmera said:

Yeah and it already recharges super fast so instantly recharging feels like a big whoop.  For the insta recharge to feel useful they'd probably need to raise the base recharge on Whirling which should coincide with a damage increase due to the recharge rate increase so it'll likely be back to being "OP".  Any route they take with it I see there being one exploit or another other than this nerf.  I too would rather they just lowered the extra damage down to 75% and called it a day. 

Maybe I'm confused.

Wouldn't insta-recharge be nearly the same as double damage, it's just spread over two back to back attacks? That still seems pretty strong for AoE.

[Coyote]

10 minutes ago, Troo said:

Maybe I'm confused.

Wouldn't insta-recharge be nearly the same as double damage, it's just spread over two back to back attacks? That still seems pretty strong for AoE.

 

Correct.

Twice the activation time, twice the End cost, twice the damage (including proc effects this time), and twice any secondary effects (in this case a pretty weak Stun effect).

It's gated behind a Total Focus energy field as a downside, but on the upside it only requires taking and slotting one power.

If they fix the extremely weak secondary effects, frankly, it will be well balanced. It's just that it's coming from a clearly too strong double-damage effect (with only one End price and only one activation time), so it feels underwhelming by contrast.

[Troo]

I'm not a fan of the combo mechanics.

But I do think it is a clever way to provide 2 AoE attacks where there is only one. And the one is having it's double damage removed.

 

It's definitely a better option than doubling the animation time and endurance cost in order to keep the double damage.

Edited October 30, 2020 by Troo

[Myrmidon]

18 hours ago, Puma said:

"battered back to mediocrity" should be the name of issue 27.  

My “number of Respecs in a day” record attempt at I27 release strongly disagrees.

[Mezmera]

4 hours ago, Troo said:

Maybe I'm confused.

Wouldn't insta-recharge be nearly the same as double damage, it's just spread over two back to back attacks? That still seems pretty strong for AoE.

Well.  Instant recharge means you'd still have to toggle up a second animation to achieve what you're already able to achieve with one animation.  Sometimes you'll get distracted with having to range blast a target, control another target or aoe control a mob that's aggro'd out of nowhere.  Often times you're just not better off having to keep spamming that pbaoe to try to achieve what you were once able to do with one animation and then you could shift gears to another power.  

 

As @Carnifax points out Whirling Hands already recharges in 5 seconds and most times you'll get caught up using some other attack and then you can go right back to Whirling Hands without the new special mechanic.  Instantly recharging when it's already a 5 second recharge isn't any big deal.  What it's really going to do is teach a bad habit of spamming Whirling Hands to try to squeeze out what it once was for Energy Assault.  It's just going back to being an underwhelming power for doms.  

Edited October 30, 2020 by Mezmera

[Coyote]

2 minutes ago, Mezmera said:

It's just going back to being an underwhelming power for doms. 

 

The secondary effect is underwhelming.

Otherwise, it's an average damage power. That can be used twice without moving, which is better than the AoE on most Assault sets. And that only needs slotting once to act like two AoEs.

 

Really, it's a clear step down from what it was, but I think it's also clear that the current version is overperforming... it's clearly the best AoE for Doms, and it's not even a close contest. AFTER the change, it will probably still be the best single AoE power for Doms, except that it's not going to be WAY better than every other one. And it's fine that it's the best, since it's the only one in the set. But it doesn't have to be as overwhelmingly the best as it is now.

[Mezmera]

1 minute ago, Coyote said:

 

The secondary effect is underwhelming.

Otherwise, it's an average damage power. That can be used twice without moving, which is better than the AoE on most Assault sets. And that only needs slotting once to act like two AoEs.

 

Really, it's a clear step down from what it was, but I think it's also clear that the current version is overperforming... it's clearly the best AoE for Doms, and it's not even a close contest. AFTER the change, it will probably still be the best single AoE power for Doms, except that it's not going to be WAY better than every other one. And it's fine that it's the best, since it's the only one in the set. But it doesn't have to be as overwhelmingly the best as it is now.

Hence the suggestion of toning down the auto proc damage from 100% to say 75% and maybe even raise the recharge on it so it's not totally exploitable now with the new more fluid Energy mechanic that doesn't have the lockout.  

 

As Powerhouse points out it's Energy's only aoe and the old version was subpar and it seems we're just going back to that.  Fun.

[Blackfeather]

On 10/24/2020 at 11:43 PM, Jimmy said:

Martial Arts

•  Eagle's Claw
  • This power now hits in a small cone
  • Now takes PBAoE sets instead of Melee Damage sets
    • Any currently slotted enhancement will retain, but can not be re-slotted after a respec
  • These changes only apply to the melee set version of the power (Tanker, Brute, Stalker and Scrapper)
• AE versions of these powers have been updated with missing powers and to match current power effects

Definitely like this change, gives a bit of extra AoE damage (quite a bit, actually) - and the dust cloud/shockwave it kicks up is really neat! Thank you for this, devs. 🙂

[skoryy]

On 10/24/2020 at 8:43 AM, Jimmy said:

Martial Arts

•  Eagle's Claw
  • This power now hits in a small cone
  • Now takes PBAoE sets instead of Melee Damage sets
    • Any currently slotted enhancement will retain, but can not be re-slotted after a respec
  • These changes only apply to the melee set version of the power (Tanker, Brute, Stalker and Scrapper)
• AE versions of these powers have been updated with missing powers and to match current power effects

Played around a little with this on my tank tonight.  90 degree arc, seven foot radius.  I was able to get two Nemmies lined up at attention in one shot, I imagine I might get a couple more in bigger taunted spawns.  EC still hits like a truck - 50% harder than DT - so it'll make spawn clearing a little faster.  Only downside will be affecting my Superior Gauntleted Fist procs, might have to think if its worth swapping my ATO slotting.

[Lines]

About WH.

 

Playing with it a bit, firing it off twice is ok, but seeing that animation twice as much is a bit irritating to watch.

 

Is it possible for the EF-charged attack to get a different animation? Such as footstomp's punch variation?

 

(Though I would prefer just toning down the damage bonus too. Not sure how that balances though.)

Edited October 31, 2020 by Lines

[PeregrineFalcon]

Apologies if someone already answered this and I missed it.

 

Since Taunt IO sets can now be slotted in Tanker aggro toggles...

 

If I slot Perfect Zinger chance for Psi damage in Invincibility, will it damage me or the enemies around me?

 

EDIT: I tested it and it affects enemies. But I don't think it happens often enough to be worthwhile.

Edited October 31, 2020 by PeregrineFalcon
Added info

[archgemini24]

On 10/27/2020 at 12:42 AM, Saikochoro said:

My two cents on the dark melee changes. My dark melee/shield defense is my favorite scrapper by far. While I do appreciate the work to add in more AoE, I personally am not a fan of the changes. 
 

I will likely still skip ToF and just keep shadow maul for a couple reasons:

1. I don’t like that ToF uses targeted AoE enhancements. It’s screws with my builds set bonuses and make it so it doesnt work anymore. That alone will prevent me from taking the power. That is okay though. It won’t work for everyone. 
2. I will echo that I don’t like the spammy nature of it. I would much rather have a higher cooldown more powerful AoE. 
 

If ToF were changed to use PBAoE enhancements I would be much more likely to use it in a final build. If the recharge were increased and damage increased to match I would probably most definitely take it. 
 

Anyway, just my thoughts on it. I am totally fine with the changes because at worst it won’t change my current playstyle/build. Albeit the slight nerf to shadow maul will affect me a bit, but I’m okay with that if the majority of people like the ToF change. I still appreciate all the hard work that went into this update!

 

Oddly enough, Touch of Fear using Targeted AoE Sets inspired me try using it instead of the Target AoE (Fireball, Ball Lightning, Dark Obliteration, etc.) in the Patron/Epic Pools, so it didn't mess with my builds at all. If I wanted ToF and the epic TAoE, I started running into a slot and power crunch for other items I wanted in my builds. That is a me problem, though. Better builders and builders with different goals will manage both.

 

As a TAoE, it puts ToF in direct competition with those powers, and except for earlier access it does not match up well (reading the board suggests this was intentional, which is a headscrather). The activation time is much longer, the effect radius is much smaller, and the utility aspects of the power only affect the target that is touched. If it is changed to a PBAoE, it runs into competition with Shadow Maul, and the only reason Touch of Fear is even remotely competitive there is because the target cap on Shadow Maul was reduced. This feels like the Whirling Hands nerf on Dominators, in that Shadow Maul's damage was split up between two casts and two costs.

 

If I could wave a wand, this is what I would change:

- Improved damage and subsequent recharge

- The Fear still only affects the Touched target, but the To-Hit debuff affects every enemy hit by the damage component. If the power has to stay in its spammy iteration, at least being able to slap a bunch of debuffs would be useful for survival.

 

Just some observations from running a Scrapper an Brute (DM/Shield and DM/Regen, respectively). I will hopefully get to run a Tanker at some point today, and I think it is going to play much smoother. Plus with the Tanker mods for Defense powers, I will not need to dive so deeply into pool powers and sets for Defense, so I will likely get to run Shadow Maul, Touch of Fear, and the Epic TAoE.

[Hew]

(this is on a tank)

 

I dumped purple winteros (for 7.5% aoe def, 7.5% f/c def) into ToF. 

It is possible to procbomb ToF, since acc-tohitdebuf, taunt, fear all have procs, plus bombardment, javelin, posi. 6 damage procs... If you just want to smash things, _6_ procs in a power where you (hopefully?) build for perma-souldrain gives you very high chance for activation.

 

Against saturated +3 mobs (level shifted), 6 procs, and maxed soul drain, I was doing ~92-140 (2 or 3 procs each on average) damage to everything in the area, + 5 ticks of 12 damage. That is on par, or better than, straight slotting for damage by a lot. 

 

edit: Upon testing, looks like 4 procs and 2 50+5 generic dams is probably the sweet spot. 

 

I am curious what this would do on a brute, but not terribly so. The increased target count on a tank I feel makes up for any extra damage that a brute might get from fury, and it builds a lot stronger for defense/resist.

Edited October 31, 2020 by Hew