Focused Feedback: Travel Updates: Base Teleportation, Long Range Teleporter Accolade, Special TP Powers

[Faultline]

4 hours ago, Blackbird71 said:

If that's the case, can we put to bed all arguments that this change was urgently needed to fix some phantom exploit that keeps getting touted as a critical reason for this command to be changed?

Number Six explicitly said that the nasty exploit was found in the process of looking into the passcode fix, which wasn't the priority. With the exploit found, it became an urgent priority. Some have already been posting it elsewhere and we had to hotfix the HC live servers with a half-solution that breaks certain content in order to stop the worst abuse.

 

If we had known about this exploit in August of last year, there's no way in heck that we would have let the slash command be available this long.

[Faultline]

2 hours ago, srmalloy said:

So the critical issue with enterbasefrompasscode is an "exploits of a mom" problem? Given some of the shortcuts the devs took to address problems, I'm not surprised that there is no input validation on the command,

To be fair, this is a GM command not intended for player use, and those usually have little to no validation. But the problem runs deeper than that, which is why it wasn't found earlier, and I can't go into detail until the full fix is live.

[Xanatos]

1 hour ago, Jimmy said:

The Pay 2 Win option is likely to see much more use as it doesn't require a specific day job badge and isn't limited in charges.

Incorrect.

 

What is going to happen is that everyone will just get used to logging out at base portals and thereafter rely on dayjob portals due to their quicker recharge. Players always take the path of least resistance. The dayjob portals are going to see MUCH more use than the P2W options.

 

Also, I tested collecting exploration badges/plaques/doing long TFs/doing mission trees without the dayjob portals. I found using ouroboros in the big zones, and jumping to the base portal and using /enterbasefrompasscode in the large zones is still the optimal way to travel without the dayjob portals. The cooldowns on the P2W stuff was too long to have any impact on my play.

 

This is why I suggested removing charges from dayjob portals. (I'm sure nobody will mind if you leave the other dayjob powers until later, lol).

[Grouchybeast]

13 hours ago, Number Six said:

@srmalloy It's actually kind of backwards from that. Fold space and the LRT accolade came first during development, which led to a general revamp of the various teleportation powers, which led to discussions of "I guess we should finally fix enterbasefrompasscode now that the recharges on P2W/day job powers are getting reduced", which led to the creation of the base portal power* since it's something I had wanted to do whenever the command was patched. Somewhere in the middle of all that, we got some additional information about things related to the systemwide improvements to input validation in the travel/portal UI that made the whole thing more urgent.

 

That all happened in maybe the very last week before it went to open beta. So the design you're seeing today is definitely subject to change and may not be the final design.

Having seen this I now understand much better how you managed to end up with this weird multiplication of almost-but-not-quite identical base powers, when HC's redesigns are usually so neat and logical.  It still hurts me in my soul, though :-)

[Blackbird71]

1 hour ago, Faultline said:

Number Six explicitly said that the nasty exploit was found in the process of looking into the passcode fix, which wasn't the priority. With the exploit found, it became an urgent priority. Some have already been posting it elsewhere and we had to hotfix the HC live servers with a half-solution that breaks certain content in order to stop the worst abuse.

 

If we had known about this exploit in August of last year, there's no way in heck that we would have let the slash command be available this long.

Not explicitly, no; it was more vaguely referenced.  I honestly didn't catch that part until rereading Number Six's post after seeing your response.  But this explanation does help, thanks.  However, Number Six's statement still indicates that the exploit was not an initial factor (or possibly even known about) when the decision was made to revisit enterbasefrompasscode.  My understanding (after a re-reading and this further clarification) is that the existence of the exploit just made the changes more urgent after the decision had already been made.  Of course, I'm just piecing together what I can from the info available to me.

I still think that the solution in total is an inelegant one, and needs a lot of refinement.  There are just too many powers overlapping and trying to make up for the same thing now.  I hope you can all go back and take a serious look at the total changes and figure out something better.  Players here have offered several suggestions which would probably be simpler solutions than what has been presented.

[Faultline]

41 minutes ago, Blackbird71 said:

There are just too many powers overlapping and trying to make up for the same thing now.

This keeps being repeated as if all those powers were new and introduced this patch. We added two powers, a Supergroup Portal that requires influence to obtain and has long cooldown, and a Rapid Response Portal that doesn't require influence to obtain and has a short cooldown. Everything else was already in there, and has been since before the game shut down. A spotlight is being cast on all those powers because they are less convenient than a GM command that bypasses everything, but under that metric, everything in the game has a GM command that is more convenient. The fact that /ec me+40:critter sethealth 0 exists doesn't  create a valid reason to say "we have too many PBAOE powers for the same thing ".

[Blackbird71]

4 minutes ago, Faultline said:

This keeps being repeated as if all those powers were new and introduced this patch. We added two powers, a Supergroup Portal that requires influence to obtain and has long cooldown, and a Rapid Response Portal that doesn't require influence to obtain and has a short cooldown. Everything else was already in there, and has been since before the game shut down. A spotlight is being cast on all those powers because they are less convenient than a GM command that bypasses everything, but under that metric, everything in the game has a GM command that is more convenient. The fact that /ec me+40:critter sethealth 0 exists doesn't mean that we have too many PBAOE powers to do the same thing.

I'd count moving LRTP to an accolade power available to anyone in the same vein as adding the two new powers; it at least counts as half a new one.

But that's kind of the point; considering the options that were in the game already, did you really need to create two new ones?  Or  (for example) could the existing SG base teleport power have been tweaked to provide all of the needed functionality in one neat package?

Edited October 26, 2020 by Blackbird71

[arthurh35353]

You can still get power clutter via creep. This is clutter via creep. I really think that a simple option (not a day job as day jobs should be very optional) of a SG portal upon joining a SG and a better portal for the day job is a better option.

[@Ghost]

18 minutes ago, Faultline said:

This keeps being repeated as if all those powers were new and introduced this patch.

It’s being said like that because there was one uber-convenient solution and now a nearly a dozen you’re meant to use in the wake of it being gone. There already were too many teleport powers and it was already a problem, it’s just that now people have to actually engage with that problem.

[Faultline]

20 minutes ago, Blackbird71 said:

But that's kind of the point; considering the options that were in the game already, did you really need to create two new ones?  Or  (for example) could the existing SG base teleport power have been tweaked to provide all of the needed functionality in one neat package?

The existing Base Teleport is caster-only and works in PVP zones. The new Supergroup Portal leaves a portal behind for anyone to use, but doesn't work in PVP zones (or Ouroboros). The differences in targeting and activation requirements make it not possible to combine to a single power, even with redirects. Any solution to combine both things in the same power would be worse than just having the two powers.

[Jimmy]

16 minutes ago, @Ghost said:

It’s being said like that because there was one uber-convenient solution and now a nearly a dozen you’re meant to use in the wake of it being gone. There already were too many teleport powers and it was already a problem, it’s just that now people have to actually engage with that problem.

You're right. And I think it's important to note that there's two different types of feedback coming in:

1. "Travel is too confusing / there's too many options, it was easier to understand when I only needed to use the macro."
2. "Travel is too time consuming, it was faster when I could use the macro anywhere."

Specifically focusing on your concern (the first one): I do understand this feedback. The command being fixed has definitely exposed how messy travel is without it.

 

With that being said, Faultline is right: This is not a new problem. This is the game as it was originally developed (plus some extra options which you are completely free to ignore). Not to say we can't do better (as Six mentions, we're talking about it), but it'll take some time.

 

As for the second concern, this example is apt:

38 minutes ago, Faultline said:

The fact that /ec me+40:critter sethealth 0 exists doesn't  create a valid reason to say "we have too many PBAOE powers for the same thing ".

If you could instantly kill everything with a command, it's not a game anymore. Instantly teleporting around the game world with a command is just the same thing to a lesser degree.

[Jacktar]

Well, from a solo viewpoint and using the code purely for personal use to a personal SG, I see this as a solution for a non existing problem that has been wooly headed thought through, designed by committee and implimented at best clumsily and at worst badly.

PBAOE is just a straw argument.

In addition,  travel in this game is not playing the game, it is just an enabling support system to get you to where you do play the game (content)

We do not need to travel anywhere just to find loot or mine diamonds, if I walk from Atlas to the Hive I do not improve my stamina or walk speed. Travel does nothing else but move me.

So if I can get to where I want as fast as possible I get to play more.

Nobody is asking you to remove all the other means of doing travel so if you want to be traditional then do not use the code.

This game was always about play as you want to, the choice is yours, well used to be.

 

Edited October 26, 2020 by Jacktar
Additional text

[Grouchybeast]

24 minutes ago, Jimmy said:

You're right. And I think it's important to note that there's two different types of feedback coming in:

1. "Travel is too confusing / there's too many options, it was easier to understand when I only needed to use the macro."
2. "Travel is too time consuming, it was faster when I could use the macro anywhere."

Specifically focusing on your concern (the first one): I do understand this feedback. The command being fixed has definitely exposed how messy travel is without it.

FWIW, I would have been happy enough with you guys simply disabling enterbasefrompasscode.  I managed to get into my base without it on live, it would be fine on HC, too.  I just think that adding two more base entry powers to what is already, as you say, a messy system, is entirely the wrong direction to take things.

[Blackbird71]

37 minutes ago, Jimmy said:

With that being said, Faultline is right: This is not a new problem. This is the game as it was originally developed (plus some extra options which you are completely free to ignore). Not to say we can't do better (as Six mentions, we're talking about it), but it'll take some time.

Granted, it's not a new problem.  But adding two more powers on top of what is already there compounds the pre-existing problem more than it provides solutions.  I'm really hoping this situation gets another look before i27 goes live.

[QuiJon]

28 minutes ago, Jimmy said:

If you could instantly kill everything with a command, it's not a game anymore. Instantly teleporting around the game world with a command is just the same thing to a lesser degree.

See when i read something like this it makes me feel like maybe you are not understanding what we liked or what we are asking for. At least for me personally i am not looking for "instant" travel. I am fine with those p2w teleporters for teams and individual that take you to a mission door to be on a long timer. However the base entry macro was more convient. Some zones are very large and even with travel powers can take some time to get around on. So think for instance a TF where you have to jump between missions in Talso and IP. Both are huge zones and i have had missions that would require 4-5 MILES of flight time to go between the door in the corner of talos to the train, to IP to the door in IP. Jumping into the base and porting to IP just saved time. It was not door to door no, but it did allow me to cut off getting to the initial point of a travel corridor to IP and only had to travel in that destination zone. 

 

For over a year it has not been "game breaking" to allow that macro command to be used to jump into your base and use your teleporters for travel. If it had been then it would have been shut down back then. Yes there is an exploit of some kind now i get that, but as has been said the multiple teleporters were being changed before that was noticed. And i get what you are saying about a slash command that killed everything on a map. However if that command was left for public use, and left running for over a year open for all to take advantage of, simply one day deciding to turn it off means that you have changed the expectations of what had become the norm of the game. I dont see this any differently. Sure it wasnt for us, but you all let it be. Now all anyone is asking for is to fix the problems, avoid the exploits but give us back the core of the slashcommand that made us use it to begin with. Just give every player a portal with spawning limitations to prevent abuse. Very low cool down, say under 5 minutes. Now the flexibility of the slash command persists with out the exploitability and players are not forced to get creative or badge on toons they dont badge on or anything like that. And there is no reason why when we already have teleportation powers in every base that it breaks any lore to think we have a sumonable portal to get to our bases from anywhere we are.

[dtj714]

5 hours ago, Jimmy said:

Without completely changing what the power is, the only ways we can make LRT more useful are:

• Adding more zones (we did this, and may add more in the future after some UI work to not make the long list unwieldly)
• Reducing the activation time (we did this too)
• Reducing the cooldown time (we may do this in the future)

So you acknowledge that it could be improved in multiple ways, but it's still being removed...and the changes you reference, were those done (will be done) with the pool power, or the accolade power just put in...?

5 hours ago, Jimmy said:

Even with all of those changes, it still wouldn't be worth the opportunity cost of a power pick (especially one that required two subsequent picks) due to how easy travel in the game is.

That's subjective (I thought this game was about customization and freedom of choice), and every top pool power requires two prior picks (if you're in the TP pool you're going to want Recall and TP) so...

5 hours ago, Jimmy said:

 

On the other hand, we didn't want to remove LRT from the game entirely for those who liked it - which is why we now have the unlockable version. It's not meant to be amazing, it's meant to just be a nice little bonus that you get for the exploration badges (along with the XP and merits you already get!), and it doesn't have the opportunity cost the old one had.

But that's essentially what you are doing - taking it away from those who wanted (want) it, on the justification that you're giving it to everybody, which as far as I can tell, nobody asked for.  And again, opportunity cost? One takes a power pick, while the other requires unlocks for every zone for every toon.  Couldn't you leave it to the player(s) to make the judgment about which they'd rather do?

 

Yes, inter-zone travel is easy.  Yes, I could take a power (that not everyone else has access to) that makes it even easier.  No, you should not take away the later due to the former, especially when the "solution" just exacerbates what was supposedly the underlying problem (and furthermore, the substitution is something of an entirely different nature - ie. Fold Space, a mob herding tool...).

[ShardWarrior]

1 hour ago, Jimmy said:

If you could instantly kill everything with a command, it's not a game anymore. Instantly teleporting around the game world with a command is just the same thing to a lesser degree.

You were never instantly teleporting around the game world with the macro.  You could get to your base and from there use a teleporter to go to the required map, then use your travel power from there.  Equating that to an instant "I win" button that clears an entire map with no effort seems a bit of a stretch.

 

Adding a single, simple base portal summon power that is interruptible solves the problems of it being used as an escape from death and provides a level of immersion in that it has some kind of animation.  Again, some level of travel is still required.   I still do not see the reason to lock it behind a high inf, high recharge or limited use charges. 

Edited October 26, 2020 by ShardWarrior

[Gunrunner]

On 10/25/2020 at 7:10 AM, Moiread said:

I agree 100% with this. There is no reason for recharge to be so long. Cast time should be enough to prevent the abuses that the GM command was being used for. 

This, THIS, a thousand times THIS.  If you really must do away with such a useful and convenient feature, Xanatos' solution is the correct one.

[Glacier Peak]

 Posting this again partly because I don't know if it has been seen by our awesome volunteer devs and partly because I am hoping actual testing is valued a little more than just subjective opinions.

 

General Feedback & Testing Notes:

 

LONG RANGE TELEPORT ACCOLADE POWER

• After activating the Long Range Teleport Accolade power, a power tray pops up with the "Long Range Teleport Second Chance" power icon, allowing for a second attempt at using the power (much like the original T4 Teleport Pool Power). However, the icon that is displayed in this power tray is actually the T4 Long Range Teleport pool power icon and not the new icon given for the accolade teleport power.

Spoiler

 

• Activating the LRT power as a hero displays twenty zones which are eligible for travel, assuming all exploration badges have been unlocked. The in-game description indicates only sixteen for heroes. Doing the same thing as a villain displays fourteen zones which are eligible for travel, assuming all exploration badges have been unlocked. The in-game description indicates only eight for villains. This is only slightly confusing, as a character that is either a Rogue or Vigilante has access to twenty seven zones. This may be due to the power itself not being tied to alignment. See screenshots below:

Spoiler

 

 

Spoiler

 

Spoiler

 

• The description box for the Long Range Teleport Accolade power indicates that the following Paragon City zones can be unlocked: "Atlas Park, Brickstown, [...], Rikti War Zone, Rogue Isles, Skyway City...". Similar mislabeling is found in the following Rogue Isles zones that can be unlocked: "Port Oakes, Praetoria, Sharkhead Isles, ...". To alleviate any confusion, I would recommend removing the two underlined items in the description of the power, as well as reordering the zones which can be accessed via level progression or some other method.

Spoiler

 

[Heraclea]

1 hour ago, Faultline said:

The new Supergroup Portal leaves a portal behind for anyone to use, but doesn't work in PVP zones (or Ouroboros).

Is there an reason why the power won't work in Ouroboros?  Or, for that matter, why there isn't a permanent fixed base portal in Ouroboros?  Having one there would be very beneficial, especially for people who use Ouroboros as a launch pad for trials and the like. 

[Gunrunner]

3 minutes ago, Blackbird71 said:

I'm not crazy about the proposed alternatives and changes to enterbasefrompasscode, but to be fair, the purpose in having the command available in click range of a portal isn't exactly to allow transport, but more to allow the "bookmarking" of base codes that was a benefit of command macros to still be used.

So Replacement is wrong; it's not the exact same functionality, but it does at least preserve one part of the functionality.

I would counter that each of those "bookmarks" takes up a tray slot.  So we're back to square one, except that in addition to a whole array of new powers (that also eat slots), we need a rolodex bar for our addresses.   I don't have enough screen real estate for all these bars.

 

In addition, if there's some critically serious exploit that's tied to this command, as has been repeated several times in this thread, how is limiting the input range going to fix that?  Something here smells rotten.

[Faultline]

7 minutes ago, Gunrunner said:

I would counter that each of those "bookmarks" takes up a tray slot.

Only if you chose to make them macros for the powers tray. CustomWindows and PopMenus exist.

7 minutes ago, Gunrunner said:

In addition, if there's some critically serious exploit that's tied to this command, as has been repeated several times in this thread, how is limiting the input range going to fix that?

Once again I can't give details until this is patched to live, but it has to do with the way it validates that you are allowed to switch maps, and to which maps you are allowed to switch. Amusingly, supergroup bases are the least of the concern here, since they have their own validation for people who don't have access via SG permissions or passcode.

[ZacKing]

5 minutes ago, Faultline said:

Only if you chose to make them macros for the powers tray. CustomWindows and PopMenus exist.

Not trying to be mean, but comments like this concern me and shows you're attacking this from the programmer thinking and not a player.  Not saying that's a bad thing, but the average, casual player isn't going to be editing game files and such and it shouldn't be expected. the p2w and day job one aren't necessary.  make it an unlock for joining a SG and give it a brief recharge and also interruptible.  That solves all the problems discussed about the command over the past year. 

[Blackbird71]

16 minutes ago, Gunrunner said:

I would counter that each of those "bookmarks" takes up a tray slot.  So we're back to square one, except that in addition to a whole array of new powers (that also eat slots), we need a rolodex bar for our addresses.   I don't have enough screen real estate for all these bars.

That's not incorrect, but it's also not any different than the way things are now with the enterbasefrompasscode command.  People use this command to make macros for bases they frequent, those macros take up slots.  

Yes, the array of new powers is annoying glut, but that's a separate issue from the bookmarking.  The bookmarking doesn't change with any of this; you just have to be near a portal to use it now.

[@Ghost]

13 minutes ago, Heraclea said:

Is there an reason why the power won't work in Ouroboros?  Or, for that matter, why there isn't a permanent fixed base portal in Ouroboros?  Having one there would be very beneficial, especially for people who use Ouroboros as a launch pad for trials and the like. 

I'm a little curious about this, too, except for why it doesn't work in PvP zones. Is it just the quick exit? I feel like you could condense a lot of these powers down into maybe 2-3 more universal options, ie:

 

One SG portal that "levels up" its recharge time depending on how many of the powers/badges you have: Monitor Duty, Rapid Response Member, p2w Base Transporter, p2w Supergroup Portal.

One personal portal that "levels up" and adds destinations depending on what ones you've unlocked: Ouroboros, Pocket D, and all the exploration accolades (which should probably be account wide.)

 

Which leaves the mission TPs as their own thing (which is reasonable, I think) and the market TPs as... something. Maybe you could fit those on a personal portal, but it seems messy.

 

I think ditching the long activations that get interrupted every time someone actually drops a portal is for the better, but it seems like PvP zones might be a hang up there?