What would Force Fields look like if was made with a modern design philosopy?

[Normal Thomas]

Force Fields is an interesting set to me. My first level 50 was a Mercs/Force Fields Mastermind. One thing that stuck out to me and that probably sticks out to a lot of people as well is how many powers in Force Fields you can get away with skipping. I feel like most people go with Deflection Field, Insulation Field, Dispersion Bubble, Personal Force Field, Force Bubble and Force Bolt (usually because they have to). Everything else from there I think doesn't suit most people's playstyles or mesh well with how other people play the game (knockback is definitely frowned upon these days).

 

Now Force Fields is a very foundational set. Sonic Resonance, and to a lesser extent Cold Domination, Thermal Radiation and even Traps, all build off the house Force Fields built. Sonic Resonance in particular is the most one to one in terms of influence, it even has a foe capture power! Ultimately however these sets have very different cores and are more well rounded than Force Fields, showing the developers had gained a much greater understanding of their own game systems and player's desires.

 

I don't see Force Fields run much these days. I think the fact that it was made with an older paradigm of gameplay might be the reason for it but I don't necessarily see anything "wrong" with the set. Its focused around defense buffs and knockdown/knockback and that's exactly what it delivers on. It's also a very conceptually compelling set that features prominently as a power in comic books. However I do wonder, especially considering how powerset design has evolved through the game's history, what Force Fields would look like if it were made now instead of at the game's opening.

 

So, let's say you had an opportunity to reimagine Force Fields: Would you still create a set centered around defense buffs and knockback/knockdown with only marginal or no changes? Or would you turn the set on its head with a totally new vision of its concept?

Edited October 31, 2020 by Normal Thomas
Added "Force Bubble" to the powers people usually go with

[Greycat]

16 minutes ago, Normal Thomas said:

I don't see Force Fields run much these days. I think the fact that it was made with an older paradigm of gameplay might be the reason for it but I don't necessarily see anything "wrong" with the set.

It's not that there's anything wrong with the set, really. But you'll see a lot of (50/Incarnate focused, generally) attitude that "Everyone can cap their defense, why should anyone play Force Fields?" Ignoring, of course, there's 49 levels of game before that and not everyone builds (or wants to build) to softcap to everything, etc, etc, etc.

 

That said, I think the devs did develop the game in a way that broke FF... specifically because of IOs. (Part of why I said in the "if you could make one radical change" thread that I'd limit bonuses to 3, not 5, of a type.)

 

There was other discussion on force fields... somewhere or other. Anyway, if I were sat down and told "you have the power to remake force field," I wouldn't go particularly radical. Keeping past discussions in mind, I'd probably do something like this:

 

Force bolt: Probably what I'd do most with. Up the damage. Still does ST knockback, does KD to things around the target. Damage is buffed further  if you have Repulsion field or force bubble running.

 

Personal FF: Can attack through it, with damage reduced from 1/2 to 1/3 and defense from PFF severely reduced for several seconds. Don't attack? You're still practically untouchable, with current restrictions.

 

Detention field: Since people hate waiting, make it a toggle (with the current timeout, as well - you can just cancel it early.)

 

Force bubble: Reduce the size to the same as DIspersion bubble. Enemies entering (or knocked into, or with the new AOE teleport, drawn into) it take damage over time, similar to the sonic repulsion fields in Praetoria, until they're out of the field.

 

Dispersion bubble - Popular suggestion seems to be adding absorb. Absorb will layer if someone with individual bubbles is in the big bubble.

 

Repulsion field - it's pulsing a knockback. Add damage to it as it "hits" enemies. Or chance to stun. Touch of -def, maybe. Getting smacked around by an energy (or whatever) field should have some effect.

 

Not sure what, if anything, I'd change on the other powers.

[Solarverse]

@The Philotic Knight might want to add to this discussion, since Force Fields are (to my knowledge) one of his favorite powersets.

Me personally, I don't know what they need, but I would most certainly like to see them improved...somehow.

[Gulbasaur]

Force Fields used to be one of the more appreciated powersets - the game has grown in such a way that has made it redundant. 

 

I'd be a bit concerned about it turning into too much of something totally different. Force Fields is a victim of the wider game balance issue that IO sets allow you to build for levels of defence and resistance that would only have been seen on a tank  previously. I would strongly argue that it's the enhancement set system that needs a rework, not a core powerset. Dominators and blasters just shouldn't be able to build up 40% defence from set bonuses alone! Compared to a pre-IO state of play, that's bananas. I'd be in favour of the "rule of five" being tuned down to a "rule of three" - the current state of set bonuses is at the heart of so many game balance problems. 

 

 

Anyway...

 

Force bolt: Probably what I'd do most with. Up the damage. Still does ST knockback, does KD to things around the target. Damage is buffed further  if you have Repulsion field or force bubble running.

 

Part of FF's whole schtick is knockback and I know there's a vocal minority of the game that hates it, but I'd be disappointed to see it turn into knockdown. Bad tanking and poor positioning is just as bad as knockback and knockback can remedy the first two.  I also disagree with turning it into basically a blast attack. Maybe a stun or something? 

 

Personal FF: Can attack through it, with damage reduced from 1/2 to 1/3 and defense from PFF severely reduced for several seconds. Don't attack? You're still practically untouchable, with current restrictions.

 

I think if this change would happen it would have to happen much later than a low tier power. This would risk basically turning it into a tanking set if you could level enough damage from other sources, procs, pets etc. 

 

Detention field: Since people hate waiting, make it a toggle (with the current timeout, as well - you can just cancel it early.)

 

This is actually pretty nice. It's a situational power and this would make it less situational. 

 

Force bubble: Reduce the size to the same as DIspersion bubble. Enemies entering (or knocked into, or with the new AOE teleport, drawn into) it take damage over time, similar to the sonic repulsion fields in Praetoria, until they're out of the field.

 

This changes the core of what it is too much, though I agree about reducing the size. 

 

Dispersion bubble - Popular suggestion seems to be adding absorb. Absorb will layer if someone with individual bubbles is in the big bubble.

 

It already confers a lot of mez protection - is it needed? Is survivability so much a problem that absorb is needed? The bubble+bubble=absorb idea is interesting. 

 

Repulsion field - it's pulsing a knockback. Add damage to it as it "hits" enemies. Or chance to stun. Touch of -def, maybe. Getting smacked around by an energy (or whatever) field should have some effect. 

 

It needs something, definitely. 

[Peacemoon]

The fact you can skip so many FF powers can actually make it quite interesting in a very different way. You can play a FF defender much more aggressively, for instance. Or pair it up with medicine. It is a great set if you want to be good in teams at minimal power/enhancement investment, and use what you save to play with power pools etc that you can’t usually find space for. 
 

Also not only is it light in powers/slots required, but it is light in time consumed. You pre-buff your team, and it doesn’t require you to really cast much in combat, so you can focus even more on what it’s paired with and other powers.

 

So in a paradoxical way, it’s weaknesses can be turned into a strength, and do give it a fun type of play style of its own.

 

I really wish FF defenders could shield themselves somehow though. It would make them much tankier and make up for the lack of debuffs, and really would suit the vibe of the set. I wouldn’t want the set to have debuffs added personally. I think being the premier set for making everyone hard to kill should be it’s thing, and that would be fun for a lot of people I think. 

[_NOPE_]

5 hours ago, Solarverse said:

@The Philotic Knight might want to add to this discussion, since Force Fields are (to my knowledge) one of his favorite powersets.

Me personally, I don't know what they need, but I would most certainly like to see them improved...somehow.

Ah, this old chestnut.

 

Here:

• FF Buffs With Cottage Rule Intact
• Force Field Set Redesign Without Cottage Rule

 

Went ahead and added them to my signature so it's easy for me to find them again.

Edited October 31, 2020 by The Philotic Knight

[Naraka]

10 hours ago, Greycat said:

 

That said, I think the devs did develop the game in a way that broke FF... specifically because of IOs. (Part of why I said in the "if you could make one radical change" thread that I'd limit bonuses to 3, not 5, of a type.)

 

 

I'd probably have gone the other way and altered the amount of categories down to 3, at least for defense and rech bonuses (so just small, moderate and huge and roll any tiny set bonuses up to small and any large set bonuses down to moderate).

 

As for changes to the set, I'm not sure. The only premium effect I would really like FF to have that it doesn't is the ability to create a placable obstruction that cannot be fired or walked through by ally or foe. Only teleportation and phase shift can bypass it. That is more powerful and has far more possible applications than any numerical stat change ever could.

Edited October 31, 2020 by Naraka

[Normal Thomas]

24 minutes ago, Naraka said:

As for changes to the set, I'm not sure. The only premium effect I would really like FF to have that it doesn't is the ability to create a placable obstruction that cannot be fired or walked through by ally or foe. Only teleportation and phase shift can bypass it. That is more powerful and has far more possible applications than any numerical stat change ever could.

That's an interesting one. I thought of a potential redesign of detention field making it a drop click power like Dimension Shift in Gravity Control. Foes would be stuck in the field for 10-20 seconds but could be effected by any player(s) entering the field.

 

Also loving the responses. @The Philotic Knight especially has some really great ideas. I might try my hand at a more total redesign.

6 hours ago, Peacemoon said:

The fact you can skip so many FF powers can actually make it quite interesting in a very different way. You can play a FF defender much more aggressively, for instance. Or pair it up with medicine. It is a great set if you want to be good in teams at minimal power/enhancement investment, and use what you save to play with power pools etc that you can’t usually find space for. 
 

Also not only is it light in powers/slots required, but it is light in time consumed. You pre-buff your team, and it doesn’t require you to really cast much in combat, so you can focus even more on what it’s paired with and other powers.

 

So in a paradoxical way, it’s weaknesses can be turned into a strength, and do give it a fun type of play style of its own.

 

I really wish FF defenders could shield themselves somehow though. It would make them much tankier and make up for the lack of debuffs, and really would suit the vibe of the set. I wouldn’t want the set to have debuffs added personally. I think being the premier set for making everyone hard to kill should be it’s thing, and that would be fun for a lot of people I think. 

That's very true. My Mastermind could go all in on Leadership and Medicine because he skipped so many of the powers and that can be a huge strength of "skippable" powers. However that does lead me to question why those powers are considered "skippable" and what would it take to make them equally compelling options on the power pick screen.

Edited October 31, 2020 by Normal Thomas

[Peacemoon]

8 minutes ago, Normal Thomas said:

That's an interesting one. I thought of a potential redesign of detention field making it a drop click power like Dimension Shift in Gravity Control. Foes would be stuck in the field for 10-20 seconds but could be effected by any player(s) entering the field.

 

Also loving the responses. @The Philotic Knight especially has some really great ideas. I might try my hand at a more total redesign.

That's very true. My Mastermind could go all in on Leadership and Medicine because he skipped so many of the powers and that can be a huge strength of "skippable" powers. However that does lead me to question why those powers are considered "skippable" and what would it take to make them equally compelling options on the power pick screen.

I would say because it has 3 powers that focus on knockback/knockdown, which in today’s modern CoH can be useful but often not essential. So powers that have those qualities as their primary purpose are often overlooked, especially compared to some power pool benefits that can’t be replicated. 
 

It also has an intangible (questionable use) and force bubble (repel). 
 

We live in a game that really benefits from buffs/debuffs, particularly from ATs that can select FF, and lots of their powers bring neither.

 

I’m not saying those powers are useless, but trying to explain why they’re skipped.

Things that might help the offensive FF powers - adding some debuff to Force Bolt/Repulsion Bomb that links for 20/30s. Maybe -regen/-dmg.

[Greycat]

11 minutes ago, Normal Thomas said:

Also loving the responses. @The Philotic Knight especially has some really great ideas. I might try my hand at a more total redesign.

That's very true. My Mastermind could go all in on Leadership and Medicine because he skipped so many of the powers and that can be a huge strength of "skippable" powers. However that does lead me to question why those powers are considered "skippable" and what would it take to make them equally compelling options on the power pick screen.

There are multiple (typically team-focused) powersets that have "skippable" powers. (Granted, and some non team focused ones - I tell people to take time bomb once to learn for themselves why they should respec out of it and find something useful, like knitting, to take instead. 🙂  )

 

Some are because they're just team based - and are one of the reasons I have multiple builds on some characters (solo/team.)

 

Some are just ... "meta" or "general knowledge" that you "shouldn't" like them. ("Ugh, that does knockback!" for instance.) My attitude towards these are "take it and decide for yourself." And some are valid. For instance, I like things like detention field / sonic cage, but get why teams can find them annoying (thus giving in and making it a toggle in my post.)

 

And yeah, some just aren't worth it. I'll generally consider skipping Clarity in Sonic, for instance, just because it comes so *late* (especially as a secondary) that it's generally not needed.

[Normal Thomas]

16 minutes ago, Peacemoon said:

Things that might help the offensive FF powers - adding some debuff to Force Bolt/Repulsion Bomb that links for 20/30s. Maybe -regen/-dmg.

I love Force Bolt. I used that power a lot solo as my force fields Mastermind. I definitely think they need to up the damage to make it a viable attack and maybe add a splash knockdown effect like Propel has now.

13 minutes ago, Greycat said:

And yeah, some just aren't worth it. I'll generally consider skipping Clarity in Sonic, for instance, just because it comes so *late* (especially as a secondary) that it's generally not needed.

I never understood Clarity in that set, especially since the Sonic Dispersion Bubble already provides mez protection

Edited October 31, 2020 by Normal Thomas

[Johnny]

My main is a Grav/FF controller, but there's no way that I could have put as much thought into the FF set as Philotic has in those other threads.

 

For the Deflection and Insulation Shields, it was a godsend when these were made into AoEs. Originally, you had to cast on individual team members, and then remember to refresh those casts between mobs. I was pretty good at refreshing these shields, but I understood that many players would forget, leading to the unpleasant experience of being nagged for shields. With people nagging you to apply shields, I would not surprised if this dissuaded people from taking FF.

 

I actually never went in for the knockback powers, except Force Bolt because it provided precise targetting for anything that my grav fields missed, or for knocking a mob away from a teammate.

 

With a balanced team, there shouldn't be a regular need for Detention Field. I keep it handy for when a boss needs to be isolated from the other mobs (i.e., divide-and-conquer). Don't just fire it off, though. You need a macro that tells people what you've done, along with how long until that enemy is free.

 

As a comparison from the Grav set, Dimension Shift is similar to Detention Field, except that it is AoE. Again, there shouldn't be a regular need for Dimension Shift, but it's useful when someone aggro'd a second large mob (that is now closing in and about to wipe the team). Just make sure you have a macro that declares what you've done, and how much time until the effect wears off.

[Clave Dark 5]

Everything else aside, I think we can all agree on adding damage to the force bolt.  I took it on my MM and have used it for the soft control it was made for, but yeesh, I feel like I might do them more harm by sticking out a boot and tripping them.

[OmegaOne]

On 10/31/2020 at 3:21 AM, Normal Thomas said:

So, let's say you had an opportunity to reimagine Force Fields: Would you still create a set centered around defense buffs and knockback/knockdown with only marginal or no changes? Or would you turn the set on its head with a totally new vision of its concept?

Yeah FF is a weird mix of +DEF, area denial and even a little damage.

 

+DEF is still very useful in the low to mid level game, but is less useful at high levels (especially when you start running into lots of DE emanators, Nemesis Vengeance, Rularuu auto-hit powers and Incarnate stuff) so I'd slightly reduce the "Area Denial" aspect of the power while leveraging the Absorption mechanic that was added later in the game's life (the +Absorb would be very useful at all level ranges). 

 

Repulsion Field and Force Bubble basically do the same thing in slightly different ways - they are both at their core a "keep away" mechanism - so remove one, and in it's place add an AoE click bubble like Deflection/Insulation Shield that adds an amount of Absorption to the recipients. Alternatively (or in addition) you could add a little +Absorb to Deflection/Insulation Shield, a little +Absorb over time to Dispersion Bubble, etc., while adding something a little distinctive and useful to the "keep away" powers. 

 

Another issue with FF is Detention Field - as the power exists it's more often a stumbling block for teams rather than a benefit. Either making it a normal high-mag hold or even just changing it to a toggle rather than a click (or a "timed toggle" like Hybrid Incarnate Powers) would be a vast improvement and it would likely see more use.

 

Oh - and offering an alternate animation to Repulsion Bomb would be great too - not a fan of the "beach ball throw." It's cast time is a little on the long side as well, so shortening it could help. It's damage is alright for being a power in a support set, and is has an AoE Disorient chance, which is nice. What about adding some disorient to Force Bolt to allow casters to target LT's/Bosses and stack a some MAGs?

 

Edited November 8, 2020 by OmegaOne

[Blastit]

If FF was made today I think it'd be about granting absorption and blocking enemies. Making walls, small and big bubble cages and so on. Plenty of toggles to bubble a boss and keep some walls up to block off a hostile corridor etc. Less about just buffing your team and more about manipulating enemies in a way that doesn't involve typical magnitude-based crowd control.

[Yomo Kimyata]

Based on what I've seen of the new sets and of suggestions in that forum, a new FF would have:

 

1.  Self-heal, preferably in the form of a band-aid arrow.

2.  Damage aura

3.  Endurance regeneration tools

4.  Ability to be slotted with KB procs

5.  Toxic damage

 

This is tongue-in-cheek, to be clear!

[Shred Monkey]

Absorb buffs with lots of goofy mechanics to exploit.

[Blastit]

On 11/8/2020 at 5:16 PM, Yomo Kimyata said:

Based on what I've seen of the new sets and of suggestions in that forum, a new FF would have:

 

1.  Self-heal, preferably in the form of a band-aid arrow.

2.  Damage aura

3.  Endurance regeneration tools

4.  Ability to be slotted with KB procs

5.  Toxic damage

 

This is tongue-in-cheek, to be clear!

You forgot a summoned pet bubble that bounces around semi-randomly and knocks enemies back in a radius around it.

[carroto]

Given what's valued in the game these days, I'd say it would have to get -res and/or -regen.  Anyone bringing those is considered to be contributing regardless of what else they do.