Focused Feedback: PvP Updates

[reib]

On 11/1/2020 at 5:08 PM, Troo said:

 

Who is helping to change the pvp is the one who knows the pvp best, simple. you start in the zone and then continue in the arena if you want to raise the level of challenge a bit. there are no two communities, zones and arenas, those who claim this have been little or nothing both in one and the other. they are the same players who, JUSTLY sickened by the zones, now play only in the arena. if the pvp were better almost all these players would also be in the zones. I'm sure.
 

Edited November 2, 2020 by reib

[Xanatos]

I don't agree with the Zoner/Arena dichotomy. These changes will benefit all PVPers equally. For example: I never 8v8. All I do is zone PVP and 1v1. All of these changes are things I've wanted since forever. (And every other PVPer I know.)

 

Do the people criticizing these changes actually pvp in zones? I don't mean to be rude, but everyone against this change so far seems to be PVEers who love arguing on forums. I've not seen a single critical post start with "So I was on brainstorm testing out these changes and my feedback is...".

[Troo]

@Xanatos I think we could pose similar questions of both the kickballers, zone pvpers and the pvers.

 

How often do folks visit:

• Bloody Bay
• Siren's Call
• Warburg
• Recluses Victory
• Arena

I like to make decisions that include data, not just gut instinct or personal preference. 

 

My gut instinct says:

• Some roll 50s, skipping 1-49, playing mainly in arena and RV and don't want to be bothered collecting accolades.
• Some play 1-50 and only go to the zones for temps and badges.
• Less likely fall in-between these groups.

 

Where is the data to confirm or deny these to be true?

 

My personal preference would be a harshness for some folks, I'm also not forcing it on anyone.

I don't think we should have anything that wasn't earned by the level of the pvp zone.

Globals, IO bonuses, accolades, etc.. Some would argue venomously against that, even though they never or rarely set foot in the zones it would effect.

 

Edited November 2, 2020 by Troo

[M3z]

5 minutes ago, Troo said:

@Xanatos I think we could pose similar questions of both the kickballers, zone pvpers and the pvers.

 

How often do folks visit:

• Bloody Bay
• Siren's Call
• Warburg
• Recluses Victory
• Arena

I like to make decisions that include data, not just gut instinct or personal preference. 

 

My gut instinct says:

• Some roll 50s, skipping 1-49, playing mainly in arena and RV and don't want to be bothered collecting accolades.
• Some play 1-50 and only go to the zones for temps and badges.
• Less likely fall in-between these groups.

 

Where is the data to confirm or deny these to be true?

 

My personal preference would be a harshness for some folks, I'm also not forcing it on anyone.

I don't think we should have anything that wasn't earned by the level of the pvp zone.

Globals, IO bonuses, accolades, etc.. Some would argue venomously against that, even though they never or rarely set foot in the zones it would effect.

 

A lot of these changes are lowering the bar making it easier for people to pvp. If you didn't get hp accolades, you are at a 20% health deficit compared to regular pvpers who know about these things and usually farm up their accolades after PLing. Does it solve all of the hurdles people need to go through like knowing how to build and what AT powerset combos to use? No, but it's a step in the right direction of making pvp min/max builds more accessible.

 

And also I don't agree that there is much distinction between zoners/arena pvpers, most arena people come from zones (myself included). The only difference I see is playstyle, popping incan to get greens that heal for 1k, jump pack+animation cancelling in the sky(this just makes melees absolutely useless), base teleporting. I'm not even trying to disparage people for doing that (if you don't do it you are at a disadvantage) but it does make for this defensive oriented blaster focused pvp. RV is basically a bunch of jump packing blasters and a couple scrappers/brutes/tankers completely invulnerable in either their t9 or barrier lol. If anyone wants to argue that's fun I would love to see the argument.

[Glacier Peak]

2 hours ago, Troo said:

@Xanatos I think we could pose similar questions of both the kickballers, zone pvpers and the pvers.

 

How often do folks visit:

• Bloody Bay
• Siren's Call
• Warburg
• Recluses Victory
• Arena

I like to make decisions that include data, not just gut instinct or personal preference. 

 

My gut instinct says:

• Some roll 50s, skipping 1-49, playing mainly in arena and RV and don't want to be bothered collecting accolades.
• Some play 1-50 and only go to the zones for temps and badges.
• Less likely fall in-between these groups.

 

Where is the data to confirm or deny these to be true?

 

My personal preference would be a harshness for some folks, I'm also not forcing it on anyone.

I don't think we should have anything that wasn't earned by the level of the pvp zone.

Globals, IO bonuses, accolades, etc.. Some would argue venomously against that, even though they never or rarely set foot in the zones it would effect.

 

Poll was conducted

[Troo]

@Faultline Is the new zone available on Beta? I didn't see it at the SC entry. (DOH, totally in the notes that it is an arena zone. Thanks @Lines)

 

@Glacier Peak I took that as being about Incarnates.

Edited November 2, 2020 by Troo

[Troo]

On 10/31/2020 at 6:40 AM, Jimmy said:

PvP Accolades

• Arena vendors now sell the following PvP-only fakkolades (fake knockoff accolades) for 10,000 influence each:
  •   PvP HitPoints Endurance
    • Combined the four +HP / +End accolades
  •  PvP Res/Def All
    • Combines Eye of the Magic / Demonic Aura and Elusive Mind
  •  PvP Recharge Accurazy
    • Copy of Geas of the Kind Ones / Force of Nature
  •  PvP Mez Boost
    • Copy of Vanguard Medal / Megalomaniac
  •  PvP Freeze Ray
    • Copy of Crey CBX-9 Pistol / Stolen Immobilizer Ray
  •  PvP Damage ToHit
    • Copy of Call to Justice, the Hero alignment power
  •  PvP Recharge Special
    • Copy of Frenzy, the Villain alignment power
• Known issue: These names are way too good to be added to the game, we should probably change them (give us your suggestions!)
• These can be deleted when you no longer want them
• Normal accolade & alignment powers are now disabled in the Arena and in PvP zones

Question: Why not just remove all accolades if they make that big of a difference?

 

Comment: These changes seem to favor those who are skipping much of the game.

Comment: Having items available in PvP which characters might not have in PvE could continue to further separate the two.

Comment: Why not charge 100 instead of 10,000? This could be better for lower levels or those with less means.

[Monos King]

3 minutes ago, Troo said:

Question: Why not just remove all accolades if they make that big of a difference?

That one's obvious. Some people's builds revolve around the differences accolades make, removing them would equate to a waste of everyones time, and everyone getting access to these same accolades doesn't mess with anyone's builds. It only opens up opportunities.

 

6 minutes ago, Troo said:

Comment: These changes seem to favor those who are skipping much of the game.

Yeah, PvP and PvE are mostlty independent of one another. I think this much is pretty obvious. The more accurate comment would be "These changes support people who venture straight into PvP."

 

7 minutes ago, Troo said:

 

Comment: Why not charge 100 instead of 10,000? This could be better for lower levels or those with less means.

I feel like these comments are fractures of a criticism, but if that's the case I'm perplexed here. Doesn't charging less also support skipping most of the game? Playing the game ordinarily earns more influence than not. 

[Lines]

20 minutes ago, Troo said:

@Faultline Is the new zone available on Beta? I didn't see it at the SC entry.

Do you mean Liberty Town? That's an arena map.

[Troo]

1 minute ago, Monos King said:

I feel like these comments are fractures of a criticism, but if that's the case I'm perplexed here. Doesn't charging less also support skipping most of the game? Playing the game ordinarily earns more influence than not. 

was just trying to be quick.

Could have been "If accolade temps are being done,"

[M3z]

"Why not remove accolades?"

 

Damage is extremely high(because of procs), there are many builds that can kill a 1606 AT in one attack chain (alot of common pvp blaster builds and some stalkers) so having more HP is a requirement to not instantly exploding from pvp min/max builds.

 

A follow up question might be:

 

"Why not just cap everyone's HP?"

This would create more build freedom, but it'd all just end up going to +dmg +range and things like that creating bigger disparity between melee/range I think. Blasters (by far the strongest AT in the game for pvp) already get a massive boost in range from their snipes (+50% I think?), you add the ability for them to create builds solely focused on adding more range and it just becomes absurd.

Edited November 2, 2020 by M3z

[Gibson99]

4 hours ago, reib said:

Who is helping to change the pvp is the one who knows the pvp best, simple. you start in the zone and then continue in the arena if you want to raise the level of challenge a bit. there are no two communities, zones and arenas, those who claim this have been little or nothing both in one and the other. they are the same players who, JUSTLY sickened by the zones, now play only in the arena. if the pvp were better almost all these players would also be in the zones. I'm sure.
 

One of my favorite PvPers is Epsilon. He popularized the Psi/Plant chain that would make you disappear and his Trick Arrow was super fun until Jaunt became a thing.

He was a Zone PvPer and not a fan of 3,2,1 fire kickball. He'd 1 on 1 with people. Maybe he'll come back to the game soon. 

Not sure what you mean by "the one who knows the best PvP." Can you tell us who knows the best PvP? 

Also let's get back to Jaunt.  It's way over powered. Why is a player given teleport along with a super speed-like power? Totally made for a squish that needs to get out of a pool. 

 

 

 

Edited November 2, 2020 by Gibson99

[macskull]

4 hours ago, barrier said:

Nice deflection. Did you actually get your accolades at level 35 for Siren's

Doesn't matter anyways, accolades have worked below the level you earned them at for a long time now.

[Monos King]

9 minutes ago, Gibson99 said:

Also let's get back to Jaunt.  It's way over powered. Why is a player given teleport along with a super speed-like power? Totally made for a squish that needs to get out of a pool.

Careful there. If that were actually implemented then that actually would be a change that affected PvE because of PvPers. That's not gonna happen. Jaunt is certainly good but it isn't ludicrous. Most people just get super speed and also super jump (or mighty leap) and there's no reason that same person wouldn't just swap SJ with Combat Teleporting now.

[forgottenidentity89]

6 minutes ago, Gibson99 said:

One of my favorite PvPers is Epsilon. He popularized the Psi/Plant chain that would make you disappear and his Trick Arrow was super fun until Jaunt became a thing.

He was a Zone PvPer and not a fan of 3,2,1 fire kickball. He'd 1 on 1 with people. Maybe he'll come back to the game soon. 

Epsilon was on an arena team before he went to sea.

 

10 minutes ago, Gibson99 said:

Also let's get back to Jaunt.  It's way over powered. Why is a player given teleport along with a super speed-like power? Totally absurd unless you're a squish that needs to get out of a pool. 

The hasten tradeoff is not insignificant. 

 

11 minutes ago, Gibson99 said:

Not sure what you mean by "the one who knows the best PvP." Can you tell us who knows the best PvP? 

Arena PvP makes up a larger percentage of PvP in general, and there is fluid movement between it and zones. (Except for niche groups that don't care about the state of PvP, only whether or not they can abuse one mechanic or another/stand around and chat instead of playing.)

[macskull]

6 hours ago, Gibson99 said:

I remember vividly this idea of “lowering the barrier” to help out noobs ruining PvP before. Don’t you?

I think there are a few key differences between what is happening now and the Issue 13 changes (since I assume that's what you're talking about). Prior to the I13 changes PvPers had a list of "these are the things we think you should look at to help PvP in this game" and that list was largely ignored in favor of sweeping mechanics changes that were implemented with little to no feedback from the PvP community. At least with this round of changes 1) they're not drastically changing the way PvP works and 2) have been implemented due to direct dialog between the dev team and the PvP community.

5 hours ago, Gibson99 said:

You can rationalize this all day long. The bottom line is Kickballers brought their Preferred Way To PvP to the Zones. 

Is it right or wrong? 3, 2, 1 Fire! 

Time will tell. 

On a side note (haha), can you kickballers petition the devs to make slows work again? You got your Arena Rules so maybe you get slows too!

I'm a big fan of slows. I know M3z is too. So are the PvPers on my global and on zone chat.

You keep saying "kickballers" as if that is a group of people that exist. You could break up the PvP community into zone PvPers and arena PvPers and that would be a more accurate representation but there's usually quite a bit of overlap between the two groups. I would expect zone PvP to become more active with these changes implemented since some of the really stupid stuff that can happen in zone is going to be curbed.

 

Re: slows - yes, I'm pretty sure there's a broad consensus from the PvP community (both zone and arena) that movement slows are not anywhere as good as they used to be. That's a mechanics change though, and right now the changes we are getting are ones that require little to no powers tweaking. The general agreement right now seems to be something like "take what we can get for now and see what we can get done in the future."

18 minutes ago, Gibson99 said:

Also let's get back to Jaunt.  It's way over powered. Why is a player given teleport along with a super speed-like power? Totally made for a squish that needs to get out of a pool. 

For what it's worth I don't like the Jaunt meta either. On the one hand, you can argue that everyone having an "oh shit" button raises the skill ceiling because it requires more coordination to take down a target but on the other hand you could argue that it lowers the skill ceiling because things like positioning no longer matter as much as they did. Given the current damage-centric meta though I don't think Jaunt is the worst thing in the world and it does have some limitations that prevent it from being too good. Having to give up Hasten in a build is a pretty big tradeoff too.

Edited November 2, 2020 by macskull

[Phoenix']

23 minutes ago, Gibson99 said:

One of my favorite PvPers is Epsilon. He popularized the Psi/Plant chain that would make you disappear and his Trick Arrow was super fun until Jaunt became a thing.

He was a Zone PvPer and not a fan of 3,2,1 fire kickball. He'd 1 on 1 with people. Maybe he'll come back to the game soon. 

 

Actually he saw another psi/plant blaster with char instead of jaws in his attack chain then made the same toon and claimed it was his... and all that after a week of complaining in RV broadcast that everything is about blasters because they are too tanky and deal so much dmg

Edited November 2, 2020 by Phoenix'

[Gibson99]

50 minutes ago, Monos King said:

Careful there. If that were actually implemented then that actually would be a change that affected PvE because of PvPers. That's not gonna happen. Jaunt is certainly good but it isn't ludicrous. Most people just get super speed and also super jump (or mighty leap) and there's no reason that same person wouldn't just swap SJ with Combat Teleporting now.

Disable Jaunt for PvP. Problem solved. It's a totally absurd to get two travel powers for one, especially when jaunt is used in PvP zones to get players out of sticky situations from which there is no escape.  It feels like jaunt was made with this in mind.  

[barrier]

14 hours ago, Gibson99 said:

Disable Jaunt for PvP. Problem solved. It's a totally absurd to get two travel powers for one, especially when jaunt is used in PvP zones to get players out of sticky situations from which there is no escape.  It feels like jaunt was made with this in mind.  

eh, in zone i chase with jaunt more than i evade with jaunt so, maybe you need to adjust your playstyle.

[reib]

2 minutes ago, barrier said:

eh, in zone i chase with jaunt more than i evade with jaunt so, maybe you need to adjust your playstyle.

Jaunt Is fine, problem Is Just jaunt+Jump packs.

[barrier]

5 minutes ago, reib said:

Jaunt Is fine, problem Is Just jaunt+Jump packs.

That is literally how you chase...

[reib]

I meant that i believe that jaunt Is not unbalanced per se But that It become unbalanced When combined With Jump packs. I love jaunt to Press and Chase people more than to evade.

[barrier]

16 minutes ago, reib said:

I meant that i believe that jaunt Is not unbalanced per se But that It become unbalanced When combined With Jump packs. I love jaunt to Press and Chase people more than to evade.

I disagree. Jump packs are what make jaunt chasing possible.

[reib]

if someone tries to escape up high, yes, but if only try to jump/run/jaunt towards the base it is fun to kill him with jaunt + 160 range.

Edited November 3, 2020 by reib

[barrier]

2 hours ago, reib said:

if someone tries to escape up high, yes, but if only try to jump/run/jaunt towards the base it is fun to kill him with jaunt + 160 range.

If they run to base... that's part of the game. With e liedown, if you can't get that kill you don't deserve it.