Is it time to buff Hami? How would you?

[Greycat]

So, in the Hami raid I was just in, someone brought up... "Is it time to buff Hami?"

 

It's kind of a legit question. Hami was "the" endgame raid, for quite a while. Only source of Hami-os, causer of mass death via golden dawns - heck, my first 50 (blaster, of course) went from 0 to 1.1 million debt in one raid, the cap at the time. Then again, blaster. 🙂  Now, we run them a few times a day, we can do two in - what, half an hour if things are slow? Hami's essentially one big farm.

 

This is the Primal version of the creature that pretty well owns Praetoria now. By definition, a huge threat. It only didn't wipe out humanity because Cole talked it into letting him prove Humanity's worst excesses could be controlled.

 

So, honestly... from both gameplay and lore, it's kind of a legit question. Does Hami need to be buffed? The raid changed?

 

If so, how would you do it?

 

Edit: No, I'm not mis-posting in the wrong forum. I'm not really making this a suggestion, I just thought it'd be an interesting discussion. Of course, if the devs like some of the ideas... *shrug*

 

Edit #2: Some of this has turned into an "Incarnates are the problem/need nerfing." It's 100% true that this is in the range Incarnate abilities have an impact. But let's not just focus on that. Can you think of other things that might make the raid more fun / interesting / engaging again regardless of that? Or if you think the raid's perfectly fine on its own - why? (In isolation. No "I want other content" or "dev time" comments. Just look at the raid and what's related to it.)

 

Edit #3: Came to mind and it might help get an idea here - whether you think something could be changed or not, how often do you join in (or run, for that matter) hami raids? Mostly because I'm curious if "hami fatigue" brings up a desire for change - or, conversely, familiarity makes you want to say "it's great as is." This does not make anyone's opinion more or less valid. It's 100% curiosity.

Edited January 4, 2021 by Greycat
Wow, more stuff to add and ask about.

[Greycat]

Since I asked the question, only fair I should throw some ideas out.

 

1. Bud Hami more often.

 

Not just in zone, either. Once youv'e done a raid, there's a chance Hamidon might bud (in non-starter zones, no killing level 1-5s) a weaker version somewhere. Give it that "Becoming a threat to more than one zone" vibe. Perhaps starting with where there are currently DE - Eden, Crey's Folly, Croatoa (yes, there are, go check the corners,) PI. This wouldn't necessarily be a full strength Hami, as mentioned - but it'd be a threat that would have to be dealt with (and which Praetorian refugees would probably, IC, *not* be thrilled with hearing about.) This is more of a "lore" solution for giving the feeling Hami's getting more dangerous... it's heard of its Praetorian version and is either getting ready to break its seeming lethargy of staying in one or two zones, or even (giving PI is a target) taking on or *joining* Praetorian Hami.

 

I could see this developing over a few issues, honestly, with the threat evolving.

 

2. Create a Prae Hami raid.

 

Bigger, badder, and Incarnate content, sure. With some of its unique creatures (seeds and avatars, with an option to introduce more, or even an "infection" mechanic - though players hate losing control of their characters, perhaps it can copy a few to defend it alongside some signature NPCs.)

 

3. Disable/weaken Incarnates and/or IOs, but....

 

Yes, I know, boo, hiss, throw rotten tomatoes. It was mentioned Hami has a connection to the well. I don't *recall* that right offhand, not for Primal at least, but you have to admit "Drop Lore pets! Judgement! Drop hami!" does make mincemeat of the old blob. And there are arguments on the board and in game about just how much sets have "hurt" or "made the game too easy."

 

The thing is, we already have a pattern for getting around this. We *know* Hami (primal) does untyped damage, it can get through defenses and really hurt - thus, we use EOEs. And, we have something *else* hami specific we can pick up in every raid... Hami-os. So why not have *those* regain some value and not be affected? They can be the key to helping keep powerful attacks powerful. Swap out an IO for a hami and the power effect of the IOs don't get diminished as much.

 

Heck, this can tie in with the idea of the Prae Hami raid. Prae Hami is everywhere, there. It's *powerful.* Beating it down in one place just isn't that big a deal, right? It would potentially have the ability to *really* beat back some of our abilities... but how would it weaken what seems to be parts of itself - Primal Hami-os? They might even be more powerful. (Heck, we could give them a pass and give some sort of buff to having multiples in this situation. Fights off hami's damage, etc.)

 

4. Other effects

 

A few things thrown out in discussion included making fly/teleport more difficult (jetpack? It's not designed to work in goo!) slowing down SJ and SS, just making movement more difficult, making the higher mitos more of a challenge. Making hami Move. (What if the safe rock ... wasn't safe?) Not taking credit for them, it's just a few things that were thrown around.

 

Of course, the argument that "hami's fine as is, it doesn't need change" is perfectly legit, too. Some people like it as is. But it wouldn't hurt to discuss ways to shake things up, either.

[nihilii]

As much as I dislike blanket nerfs, at this point in the game I'd be OK with Lore getting a hard look at.

 

It is not so fun where every hard encounter can be obliterated by pulling out giant pets and buffing them. Especially when a couple choices (Banished Pantheon, Longbow, IMHO) overshadows most other options.

 

Lore has frustrating design in general. It's not perma, so if it dies you just lost a significant boon. But if it lives, it deals tremendous damage. It has limited amount of customisation, the many choices in theory should help with that but in practice the power level difference between Lore pets is big.

 

I wish we would have had just one pet, lieutenant level, perma. With careful balancing across the map to make all the choices worth it. When you look at controller pets, they're all in a pretty decent place even though they vary significantly in their powers and behavior. So achieving balance there is possible, if not necessarily probable.

 

I see many rants about Destiny or Jugement, but the former just makes your character better and the latter emanates from your character. Lore makes pets the stars of the show. I'm not sure any rational argument even matters as much for me as plain "Lore is not cool".

Hell of a derail, I know. I just tend to dislike calls for widespread nerfs generally, but for some reason your "Drop Lore pets!" made something tick. In a world with no Lore, it's likely Hami would be appropriately challenging. And Magisterium. And every other trial or hard TF, too.

 

Perhaps another middle of the road solution could be to make buffs not affect Lore pets. But that seems unfair to buff ATs.

[Greycat]

14 minutes ago, nihilii said:

As much as I dislike blanket nerfs, at this point in the game I'd be OK with Lore getting a hard look at.

This is true - and I get your points in the bit of a side talk, here. Lore (and the rest) still came along fairly late in the game's life. Had we had another few years, maybe they'd have been subject to some rebalancing. Or maybe we'd have that second "tree" of powers and things would be thrown even more out of whack. 🙂

 

That said, I don't really want to focus on general nerfs or buffs to powers overall (though, again, your reasoning for bringing this up was perfectly clear and I see why you did.) I'd *like* to focus on how they interact with Hamidon, both on a mechanical and a lore level, to shake up this raid. (For instance, Hami can smack around otherwise untouchable pets, as I'm recalling, which both requires different tactics from - say - an Illusion controller, and lorewise points again at the power that Hami should represent.)

 

 

.... side note, should EOEs be "pet-affecting AOE?" One class that falls at a bit of a disadvantage here is masterminds, who need to feed EOEs to their pets (and thus burn through their own supply fairly rapidly.) Given that *is* where the majority of their offense comes from, that's kind of an extreme disadvantage that's focused on one class. (It's less of an issue, to me, for controllers/dominators. Not everything's focused on their pets, if they have them - Illusion aside - and besides, they have green mitos to take care of, and that requires their controls, so their pets dying isn't as much of a handicap if they have them out.)

[Clave Dark 5]

I think instead of nerfing players attempting the Hami, it would make more sense to buff Hami instead; it's one thing to take stuff away from players, another to just put up[ a higher wall.

 

That wall though would have to go up in lots of places though, not just Hami, right?  MSRs, ITF, all 50 that stuff really.

[Veracor]

I'd be down for changes in this iteration of Hami raids to spice things up.  I'd like to see some iTrial or Seed of Hamidon mechanics ported over, such as spreading out from an infection aura or moving away from a pseudopet-style location power to encourage people to pay attention and interact with the raid more.  I might be personally biased towards such solutions because I think this approach to later content in the game worked pretty well given the balance situation (Destiny stacking through the roof, namely), but I'd still take any kind of numerical buff or mechanical change to the raid simply make it harder or more engaging.

 

I've looked at the different powersets that Hamidon And Friends use, and interestingly there's an unused power in the green Mito's powerset called Mitosis that was apparently to create more green Mitos under an unknown condition.  I don't know if the power works since the Mitos don't ever use it and it might not even have been a finished ability, but enabling that power could be a starting point for a dev to test around with increasing Hami raid difficulty.

 

About Lore pets: Yeah, pretty much everything in the game gets rolled by these, especially when team inspirations get used on them.  @Elmyder and another speedrunner were able to 2-man Really Hard Way by buffing the two BP Lores to cap and keeping them there.  Even Hamidon's 95% resistance will get debuffed pretty close to his negative cap (75%) before he dies with Lores alone and half a league can, if they summon and buff up beforehand, kill Hamidon without touching a single Mito.  This would probably be better addressed in an incarnate rebalancing patch, rather than have Hami instakill Lores or something, since Destiny and Lore trivialize so much of the game by themselves.

 

About Masterminds: in their current state they are very useful as long as they aren't playing AFK/command-less.  I've run a Mastermind in other peoples' raids a fair amount and as long as you're telling pets to attack the green Mitos, your pets will easily absorb the green beams without dying and you will contribute a good amount of the damage that the control team usually needs prior to melee/ranged teams finishing their colors -- even if they're melee pets they'll still get some hits in.  Masterminds are at a bit of an initial disadvantage during a bloom because newly-created yellow Mitos will always prioritize pets over players if there is equal or zero threat in their list of valid targets, but pets in league content are easily resummonable, especially so if the control team is mostly Controllers and not Dominators (greens drop their shields once they hit mag 30 stun or mag 50 hold).

[Greycat]

3 hours ago, Clave Dark 5 said:

I think instead of nerfing players attempting the Hami, it would make more sense to buff Hami instead; it's one thing to take stuff away from players, another to just put up[ a higher wall.

 

That wall though would have to go up in lots of places though, not just Hami, right?  MSRs, ITF, all 50 that stuff really.

While "in theory," sure, I'd actually say no, it wouldn't. MSRs - at least on Everlasting - have people of all level ranges coming through and still deals with large chunks of the league getting killed (usually between bomb and bowl, though if a pull gets a lot of mages, it can do Bad Things,) and while the ITF has... issues, which have been brought up previously with how it's gone from a bit of a fight (remember having to use *strategy* to fight Rommy?) to Incarnate Roflstomp, it's not *just* incarnate content.

 

Plus there's no *lore* reason to do much to them. They may warrant a look at tweaks, but they're still just big mortal fights. Even Rommy is just newly-Nicticized mortal, at best on par with Arakhn and Requiem without the experience (though, arguably the Nictus now powering him has that, but it's driving a new body and nobody told it how floppy the shifter was) so... yeah, versus "they are gods" (even without Incarnates,) he's goin' down.

 

Besides, ITF *also* has a much wider range, so a buff there would hurt the lower levels it's available to. Hami's solidly 45+ and  you don't get all the reward options 'til 50 - just the merits (mind you, 120 for a few minutes of work to do it twice isn't shabby.) 

 

Also, @Veracor , I usually miss your raids - you do the early one I tend to be working still 🙂  but appreciate the leading. The point brought up there about spicing things up and paying attention is also part of why I decided the comment in the late raid should be brought up for discussion on the forums. Half the time, the only reason I know I've moved from whatever I'm fighting to greens is that I've moved past a green. Other than the raid leader, taunter and targeters, most people don't really have to pay much attention to what's going on. Follow, hit some keys, stop fighting Hami (unless it's hamikaze time,) get reward, refresh, do it again. For what used to be *the* capstone raid... it could use some shaking up.

 

... something else just popped into mind (as a general thought. Call it #5 on the list - and hey, folks, throw some ideas out there.) Create multiple versions of Hami that look the same but behave differently... and you get to find out which one you have when you hit the soup. No, I'm not sure exactly *what* variations there could be - vampire greens that latch onto a player and heal the rest while damaging the player? Affecting player damage/effects/travel speed so you *have* to knock down some to get back up to full strength, the first few are the hardest? I Don't know. Throw some ideas out!

 

 

[Glacier Peak]

Hamidon activates an incarnate nullifying power he learned from interacting with the Praetorian version. Another added mutation from this interaction is he now drops enhancements which are not affected by E.D.

[wjrasmussen]

I generally don't see a benefit of doing this.  Rather than change this, I would prefer fresh new content.

[xl8]

I'd have Hami spawn AV level pets akin to Imperious' nictis, but in greater numbers. 8 should suffice.

Then players can attack Hami while taking greater damage or take out AVs first.

2 of said pets could buff/heal but players would have to discern which 2 those are by watching their actions.

[Grouchybeast]

6 hours ago, Clave Dark 5 said:

I think instead of nerfing players attempting the Hami, it would make more sense to buff Hami instead; it's one thing to take stuff away from players, another to just put up[ a higher wall.

 

That wall though would have to go up in lots of places though, not just Hami, right?  MSRs, ITF, all 50 that stuff really.

I would much rather see limits placed on access to incarnate powers in non-incarnate content than see the non-incarnate content buffed to the level where incarnate powers have become a requirement to run it.

[Normal Thomas]

6 minutes ago, Grouchybeast said:

I would much rather see limits placed on access to incarnate powers in non-incarnate content than see the non-incarnate content buffed to the level where incarnate powers have become a requirement to run it.

This is definitely a worthwhile point. MSR is 35-50, ITF is 35-50, Hami is 45-50. If we balance these to 50+1 (or higher) then we greatly limit the number of people who can participate in them. We can make people mad by either leaning into power creep or slowing its growth. Personally I think one of the best things about this game is its inclusiveness and it'd be better if more people in these forms of content had an easier time contributing than not.  How would this look for Hami? I'm not entirely sure. But I would lean on the side of looking at the players more than the encounter, although anything to spice up the encounter itself would be very welcome.

[Coyotedancer]

Make a second version of the Hami raid... Let's go beat up that Praetorian Jello in all his over-powered, slimy glory.

[wjrasmussen]

IS there a problem?  I don't see a problem.  So nothing to fix.

 

 

[Greycat]

19 minutes ago, wjrasmussen said:

IS there a problem?  I don't see a problem.  So nothing to fix.

Which is a perfectly fine answer too.

 

I just want to point out this isn't necessarily saying "it needs fixing," it's just something created for discussion thanks to a comment (and followon comments) during a raid last night that I thought people could have some fun with. (Otherwise I'd probably have put it in suggestions and fleshed out my own ideas more.)

[ivanhedgehog]

2 hours ago, wjrasmussen said:

I generally don't see a benefit of doing this.  Rather than change this, I would prefer fresh new content.

I agree. If you dont want incarnate powers, dont use them

Things that you can do..

1. sponsor an all no incarnate Hami raid. everyone remove their slotted powers. This can work for any TF also.

2. Sponsor a no pet Hami.

3. Sponsor a lower max person Hami.

 

This way you dont effect anyone elses game experience and dont take any of our volunteer devs time. One of the reasons this game is so awesome is the ability to customize your own game play experience.

[wjrasmussen]

1 hour ago, Greycat said:

Which is a perfectly fine answer too.

 

I just want to point out this isn't necessarily saying "it needs fixing," it's just something created for discussion thanks to a comment (and followon comments) during a raid last night that I thought people could have some fun with. (Otherwise I'd probably have put it in suggestions and fleshed out my own ideas more.)

Either there is a problem or there isn't.  I suspect that person who brought it up in the league has a different issue which went unspoken and is actually HIS ISSUE and not hami.   I could be more blunt but I will hold off on that.

[LiquidBandage]

14 hours ago, Greycat said:

1. Bud Hami more often.

 

Not just in zone, either. Once youv'e done a raid, there's a chance Hamidon might bud (in non-starter zones, no killing level 1-5s) a weaker version somewhere.

 

2. Create a Prae Hami raid.

 

Bigger, badder, and Incarnate content, sure. With some of its unique creatures (seeds and avatars, with an option to introduce more, or even an "infection" mechanic - though players hate losing control of their characters, perhaps it can copy a few to defend it alongside some signature NPCs.)

 

3. Disable/weaken Incarnates and/or IOs, but....

 

Yes, I know, boo, hiss, throw rotten tomatoes. It was mentioned Hami has a connection to the well. I don't *recall* that right offhand, not for Primal at least, but you have to admit "Drop Lore pets! Judgement! Drop hami!" does make mincemeat of the old blob. And there are arguments on the board and in game about just how much sets have "hurt" or "made the game too easy."

 

The thing is, we already have a pattern for getting around this. We *know* Hami (primal) does untyped damage, it can get through defenses and really hurt - thus, we use EOEs. And, we have something *else* hami specific we can pick up in every raid... Hami-os. So why not have *those* regain some value and not be affected? They can be the key to helping keep powerful attacks powerful. Swap out an IO for a hami and the power effect of the IOs don't get diminished as much.

 

4. Other effects

 

A few things thrown out in discussion included making fly/teleport more difficult (jetpack? It's not designed to work in goo!) slowing down SJ and SS, just making movement more difficult, making the higher mitos more of a challenge. Making hami Move. (What if the safe rock ... wasn't safe?) Not taking credit for them, it's just a few things that were thrown around.

(1) Long term, once everyone gets Hamidon fatigue (similar to weeks long Rikti/Zombie invasions), people will just run away to other content to avoid the hassle. Then people who are trying to level or travel to a mission/TF door will have to contend with this threat just to be able to run the content they desire. More often than not, they will run in one by one or in small groups and just get slaughtered by Hamidon or Mitos. Hamidon would just become a giant blight on a zone until server reset or a League sized group comes together to deal with it (then presumably maybe spawning it somewhere else). This approach would be much more likely to deter the average player from wanting to play CoX. And just think what it would do to Villain zones. 

 

(2) A Praetorian Hamidon might provide more challenge (scaling up a bit or providing moderate defenses to Incarnate powers), but it would not affect the existing Hamidon in the Hive or Abyss. 

 

(3) IO sets are not the problem, it is Incarnate usage (Lore pets, Interface usage, Destiny powers to manage the entire League, etc). If we make Hami-os a key to being successful against Hamidon, it skews the access curve. What happens if you get a Microfilament Hami-o (the travel power one)? It has a Endurance Reduction component which makes it slottable in any power (unless there is a typed/set restriction associated with it), but then you'd be slotting an enh just to make a power not-suck against a single encounter? This would eventually skew towards the rich getting richer. Then you would have to contend with characters that did not have any (minimally effective) vs roflstompers. This would create a power imbalance that would not be evident until a raid fails and under current conditions, a failed raid means double or triple Mito spawns that make the zone untenable until server reset. 

 

(4) I remember the early days of Hamidon on Live. I used to have my Illusion/Kinetics controller with Group Fly for the sole purpose of following the CC targetter (Mending Mito team) so everyone else could stay huddled together for heals and actually attack through the targetter. It was a price to pay (taking Group Fly) just to make one Team of the League viable just to be able to make it possible to raid, and this is everyone running around at level 50 with Training Origin enh slotted. It was not pretty most of the time. If a group lost their Group Flier (lag, ran out of EoE or the random occurrence of bleed through that kills or stuns), the entire Team gets hosed and drops to the ground. If that happened the Team has to fend for itself until the Group Flier gets upright again and the remainder of the Team needs to not become an untended herd of cats that scatters to the wind. Making it harder to actually orchestrate a League-wide assault on Hamidon is not the answer.

[Greycat]

10 minutes ago, wjrasmussen said:

Either there is a problem or there isn't.  I suspect that person who brought it up in the league has a different issue which went unspoken and is actually HIS ISSUE and not hami.   I could be more blunt but I will hold off on that.

Well, as I mentioned, there were other followup comments - none of which, honestly, were disagreeing or disparaging. Mind you, this is a regular group of raiders. They must enjoy doing this (or, well, just getting the fast rewards.) If I went to all ... three or four... evening raid sets, I'd see many of the same people. They *know* Hami. The idea of shaking up the Hami raids by doing *something* to make it different again seemed welcome.

 

Thus the topic.

 

I find it interesting that there are replies here that seem focused on "nerfing players." In the two posts I made setting up the discussion, only one (let's say 1 1/4) points had anything to do with really affecting the players' slotting or abilities. And provided workarounds or explanations.  I suspect at least one person actually didn't read it and gave a rote answer. 😉 (Not necessarily you, WJR.)

 

So - for everyone -  let me reiterate the main part of this that I wanted people to look at to spark discussion:

15 hours ago, Greycat said:

Does Hami need to be buffed? The raid changed?

 

If so, how would you do it?

 

Think of ways to shake things up - and why! Or why it shouldn't be. (And let's not put the "Dev time" argument in. It's really *not* an argument, just kind of a lazy way of saying "I don't like it." I've made my argument against that reply before.)

[Saikochoro]

I say leave hami the way it is, but offer an instanced non-zone hami option thru group finder. Enable TF difficulty modifiers in the group finder version. 
 

This would enable the people who want a harder hami to be able to form a league of similarly minded players in pocket d or Oro and start a hami. The people who like hami the way it is are then unaffected. 
 

The correct choice is to always give more options, not to take them away or change them. 

Edited January 2, 2021 by Saikochoro

[Heraclea]

I've often said that Kallisti Wharf needed to be threatened with destruction by giant monsters from time to time.  This would be a good place to spawn a zone event Hamidon invasion.  So long as the spawns avoided the Market Crash contact and door areas and the Statesman statue, they would inconvenience no one.   Plenty of water for an Abyss or Lusca style event. 

[LiquidBandage]

more thoughts to come, spent some time thinking in the shower.

A lot of what has been talked about so far talks around the issues and does not fully address the problem.

[LiquidBandage]

1 hour ago, Greycat said:

If I went to all ... three or four... evening raid sets, I'd see many of the same people. They *know* Hami. The idea of shaking up the Hami raids by doing *something* to make it different again seemed welcome.

Plus it sounds like you don't raid on Indom

[0th Power]

I don’t think very many people would claim that current rewards are inline with the difficulty of defeat the hamidon. So I’m gonna throw out a (admittedly, false dilemma) question for those are against making changes to the current hamidon meta:

given the choice between keep the same difficulty and lower reward or increasing difficulty and keeping rewards the same, what would you choose?

[ivanhedgehog]

6 minutes ago, 0th Power said:

I don’t think very many people would claim that current rewards are inline with the difficulty of defeat the hamidon. So I’m gonna throw out a (admittedly, false dilemma) question for those are against making changes to the current hamidon meta:

given the choice between keep the same difficulty and lower reward or increasing difficulty and keeping rewards the same, what would you choose?

it makes up for all the places that have risk and zero reward. Or do you want the devs to spend a bunch of time reworking those? Generally, when someone complains about wanting to increase difficulty, they want to increase other people difficulty, as they can do their own easily. The main reason that hami goes down easily is that people have been doing it a long time. they know exactly what to do to defeat him. The devs dont need to spend time to satisfy your OCD difficulty problem.

Edited January 3, 2021 by ivanhedgehog