Hurricane Repel

[Doomguide2005]

1 hour ago, plainguy said:

Look in all honesty you cannot keep mobs up against a flat wall.. 

 

The mobs will get knocked down and repelled. 

Eventually they get back up and move..  They might fall again.. But eventually they move to a focal point that puts them at an angle of this flat wall.. Which then causes them to just slide to the left or right and away from your  hold.  

Could several stormers do this by spacing apart and such.. I would guess so..  

Still doesn't answer why an IO would be such a horrendous game breaking idea..

 

They sure could, I watched them do it and yes they'd be repelled along the wall.  And they kept moving back and forth in an arc around their location.  And it's  not like they all run, mostly they keep trying to reach you, moving back into your debuffs and repel.

 

As for the IO well I think it's an undesirable change in how Hurricane works but okay if someone wants to neuter their ability to use Hurricane's soft control ... 

[plainguy]

1 minute ago, Wavicle said:

No. Those aren’t IOs.

They go in an IO slot for the power.. They are pre-crafted IOs..  
They are not player crafted IOs..

But offer a proc and bonus to damage and recharge..

 

Holy cow you are either trolling or splitting hairs here.. 

 

 

[Wavicle]

3 minutes ago, plainguy said:

They go in an IO slot for the power.. They are pre-crafted IOs..  
They are not player crafted IOs..

But offer a proc and bonus to damage and recharge..

 

Holy cow you are either trolling or splitting hairs here.. 

 

 

No, you’re just factually wrong. They are not IOs and are not subject to the same rules as IOs.

 

https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/Invention_Origin_Enhancements

Edited January 27, 2021 by Wavicle

[plainguy]

1 minute ago, Doomguide2005 said:

They sure could, I watched them do it and yes they'd be repelled along the wall.  And they kept moving back and forth in an arc around their location.  And it's  not like they all run, mostly they keep trying to reach you, moving back into your debuffs and repel.

 

As for the IO well I think it's an undesirable change in how Hurricane works but okay if someone wants to neuter their ability to use Hurricane's soft control ... 

I couldn't help but laugh.. 

This is okay I'm sorry BUT you still messed up and this is why it happened.. But I will apologize.. But you know.. 

Again just YOUR OPINION..  Which is fine.. I think it just a different way of using the power..  
Mind you no one needs a stormer to herd.. No one is saying in LFG MUST HAVE STORMER TO HERD... 

Yea on certain teams not having repel and just the hit debuff of hurricane can be more useful. 

 

[Wavicle]

So now not only does this "IO" effect only 1 power in 1 powerset, it also doesn't come in a set at all, it's just off on it's own. Literally the only enhancement of its kind in the entire game.

[Wavicle]

2 minutes ago, plainguy said:

 you still messed up and this is why it happened.

 

what does this even mean?

[plainguy]

Just now, Wavicle said:

So now not only does this "IO" effect only 1 power in 1 powerset, it also doesn't come in a set at all, it's just off on it's own. Literally the only enhancement of its kind in the entire game.

Yep.. 

 

Look maybe this opens the door for other unique one off IOs. I know someone in this thread brought up water blast powers related to this. 

 

Again my idea is to give suggestions that will not imbalance or make sweeping changes across the game for everyone.. 
 

This is not game breaking at all.

 

Again the Devs could toss this in the round file basket. 

Or This can be that new 20 million INF sink.. 

 

 

[Tantricsecrets]

I'd actually take hurricane if the repel could be disabled with an io, even if I had to still us a kb to kd io. I wouldn't even mind a debuff when you use it if it has a repel io slotted. It'll then be like time's aura.

[plainguy]

8 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

what does this even mean?

Basically he conceded that the IO isn't an issue for him but he had to stress that the idea sucks.. 

The analogy is giving an apology and then using the word but in the same sentence..  It pretty much negates the apology..  

Sorry I messed up but wouldn't have happened if you didn't do this.. Then I wouldn't need to apologize if you didn't do that..  

 

As for the IO well I think it's an undesirable change in how Hurricane works but okay if someone wants to neuter their ability to use Hurricane's soft control ... 

He half arsed conceded about the IO but still is expressing his discontent and expressing on how it would ruin the power..  

Edited January 27, 2021 by plainguy
Since Wavicle is confused

[plainguy]

2 minutes ago, Tantricsecrets said:

I'd actually take hurricane if the repel could be disabled with an io, even if I had to still us a kb to kd io. I wouldn't even mind a debuff when you use it if it has a repel io slotted. It'll then be like time's aura.

Thank you..

I Believe someone mentioned this as well earlier.. I glazed over it but now caught the comparison..

[Doomguide2005]

2 hours ago, plainguy said:

I couldn't help but laugh.. 

This is okay I'm sorry BUT you still messed up and this is why it happened.. But I will apologize.. But you know.. 

Again just YOUR OPINION..  Which is fine.. I think it just a different way of using the power..  
Mind you no one needs a stormer to herd.. No one is saying in LFG MUST HAVE STORMER TO HERD... 

Yea on certain teams not having repel and just the hit debuff of hurricane can be more useful. 

 

Okay I realize there's been lots of talk about "herding" using Hurricane but this was not an example of herding or "herdicane".  He didn't gather the mob, or push or pull them from someplace else or anything else herding-like.  He simply moved in along one side of the mob located in the hall using Hurricane's repel to shove them over against one wall of the hall then moved in an arc around the mob keeping them there as his teammates unloaded at range (all defender team, but not all Stormie iirc).   It was a very well applied use of Hurricane's crowd control ability nothing I'd particularly call herding in the common game usage of the word.  

 

And yes it would be my opinion that removing the repel would be a mistake in both function and concept.  It's also my opinion that  it's a game and if it makes it more fun for an individual to do so then give it a go with the understanding that it significantly reduces the utility of the power.

[UltraAlt]

12 hours ago, Greycat said:

Because knockback is fine. I don't want something I use for positioning and defense globally taken away.  Frankly I think most of the KB complaining is knee jerk reactions. Yes, some people use it poorly. They need to learn not to. The only time I'll agree that KB should universally be gone is when an NPC "ally," especially a pet, uses it, because they don't put any thought into how it's being used. All they do is "gee, I can shoot that now, I'm going to." People should put more thought into it than that, no matter what they're playing..

 

If I'm on a team and someone tells me to slot an IO, I'll tell them where they can slot it.

 

I didn't say take it way.

I said you the proc to change knockdown to knockback instead knockback to knockdown.

And as you indicated if it starts with just knockdown, then even simply adding a knockback enhancement would cause knockback.

 

But I'm glad that you at least explained your position.

 

And, if you read one of my earlier post, I went into detail about how I use knockback which also works when using repel.

 

To go back to a post on another thread, I run into situations where people say something about knockback the most when I first start using a power where it says in the description "knocks down enemies" versus knockback enemies. Regardless of how that term was used in the past, we know there is a proc that clearly indicates "knockback to knockdown" so, at the very least, the DEV that named that proc knows the difference between "knocking back an enemy" and "knocking down an enemy". So from at least that DEVs point of view, a bunch of the powers that say "knock down an enemy" are "knocking back an enemy" instead.

Just because something has been worded some way in the past doesn't mean that it is actually saying what it means.

In the case of my example (and there are many others), the power does not "knock down an enemy", it and, others like it, knock the opponent back.

Since there are clearly powers that do simply knockdown or knock-up, I don't think it is such a stretch to think that the info you get when picking the power says clearly what it does.

[Greycat]

13 minutes ago, UltraAlt said:

I didn't say take it way.

I said you the proc to change knockdown to knockback instead knockback to knockdown.

And as you indicated if it starts with just knockdown, then even simply adding a knockback enhancement would cause knockback.

If you turn knockBACK (which knocks enemies down as well as moving them back some distance) to knockDOWN (which just knocks them down where they currently are, which means a lack of travel time and thus a return to being threatening sooner) , as you just described again, you are taking something away.  I then have to slot to get the current, perfectly fine functionality back. Something I would not have to do if it were *not* taken away.

 

And you obviously do not understand knockback and how it's implemented in the game, as you would not need "a proc" to do so. Knockdown is a lower magnitude (and less useful) knockback. You would have to put in... a generic or set knockback enhancement. HOWEVER, as I just said in what I think is a fairly obvious way, making that a global requirement in order to get to *current* (knockback) functionality means *you would be taking something away,* yes.

 

If you *have* something now, and that thing no longer exists or you must do something special or extra to get it back, it has been taken away. It's not a difficult concept.

 

As for complaints about power descriptions? Yes, they end up not getting updated and at times are not the greatest. Updating them for accuracy would be good.

Edited January 27, 2021 by Greycat

[UltraAlt]

5 hours ago, Outrider_01 said:

Roll 2 blasters, one /Energy and the other /Martial than go to Outbreak.  Similar power, quick punch...one causes them to fly away and the other to just drift away with ragdoll physics; you will giggle every time.

I already have more than one of each of them.

 

That float way mechanic of Ki push (KB, Repel) doesn't operate the way the hurricane does. I operates more like controller telekinesis but toned down a lot and only single target.

 

I went and monkeyed around with hurricane. 

I never put the KB to KD proc in it before the sunset, so I have always been finessing it and using my tactics for knockback which work for repel as well.

 

There is a big difference in what the power does if you run into them and when  you finesse it and tap them with it.

They do go back father if you charge into them, but it simply doesn't behave in the same way that Ki push or telekinesis do.

[srmalloy]

21 hours ago, Psyonico said:

Not correct, Knockback is away from the caster, not the point of impact. 

... which has always annoyed me with my AR/EM Blaster, going all the way back to Live, when I'd fire off M30 Grenade, and all the mobs in the AoE would fly away from me... including the ones that were between me and the mob I'd targeted; if KB worked the way it should, those mobs should have been knocked toward me.

[srmalloy]

2 hours ago, UltraAlt said:

Since there are clearly powers that do simply knockdown or knock-up

No. There are powers that do knockup, and there are powers that do knockback/down. Knockback and knockdown are the same effect; only the magnitude is different. If you hit a mob with a power that does knock*, and the final adjusted magnitude of the knock effect is greater than 1, the mob is knocked back; if the final adjusted magnitude is less than 1, the target is knocked down. The KB->KD IOs apply a large divisor to the KB magnitude of the power they're slotted in. On the other side of the equation, if you're attacking a lower level mob, or one that is weak to KB (like Clockwork), that can increase the magnitude of the effect to the point where a power that normally does knockdown does knockback.

[Doomguide2005]

And Repel is it's own totally separate thing from any knock effect.  Hurricane is listed as Repel 1

 

Offhand only know of a couple other powers that have Repel in them, Force Field - Force Bubble and Mind Control - Telekinesis (also in Psy Mastery).

Edited January 27, 2021 by Doomguide2005
Typos

[SeraphimKensai]

 

37 minutes ago, Doomguide2005 said:

And Repel is it's own totally separate thing from any knock effect.  Hurricane is listed as Repel 1

 

Offhand only know of a couple other powers that have Repel in them, Force Field - Force Bubble and Mind Control - Telekinesis (also in Psy Mastery).

Honestly if they did have an IO to invert Repel, I think it would be fun in those powers as well. Imagine Telekinesis drawing a target that tried to run away, and you shout "Not today ISIS". Otherwise Froce Bubble trapping enemies inside, "Welcome to the Thunderdome".

[arcane]

Plainguy, I’m afraid I have to reiterate total opposition to any further opt out mechanisms that allow you to continue to put off learning to play the game. It’s not a super hard game, I promise.

 

Sudden Acceleration may be a massive buff that really transformed powers like Bonfire and Tornado, but man did it establish a bad precedent for anti-thinking players to latch on.

Edited January 27, 2021 by arcaneholocaust

[Alty]

15 hours ago, plainguy said:

I clearly expressed an IO.. No one forces anyone to use an IO.. 
So it is sort of sad that you would contort my words to make your point.

I did not contort your words. I wrote that I was disappointed that someone who teamed with Torm would seem to not understand how to herd with hurricane. You have written how you want to keep mobs in a corner and have stated that they don't STAY in the corner but you want them to stay in the corner and thus want an IO to remove repel. 

 

As to one IO to turn off repel. It seems unnecessary to create a single IO for one component of one power in a powerset. 

 

Currently, there aren't any that turn OFF a power component. Set IOs modify power components, changing KB to KD. Set IOs can add additional components to powers (-def -res, +heal +regn). 

 

I am not aware of any set IOs that subtract components from a power. 

 

Since repel isn't a QOL issue, it probably can't assigned to Null the Gull, as off switch like the +run speed in buffs applied to players. 

----------

 

📢 I'm also gonna take a moment to plug RETRO RO as we will have Perfect Storms (All Storm Summoning) teaming in February on Everlasting. Details in RO Club Event Calendar

Edited January 27, 2021 by Alty

[UltraAlt]

On 1/27/2021 at 9:16 AM, srmalloy said:

No. There are powers that do knockup, and there are powers that do knockback/down. Knockback and knockdown are the same effect; only the magnitude is different. If you hit a mob with a power that does knock*, and the final adjusted magnitude of the knock effect is greater than 1, the mob is knocked back; if the final adjusted magnitude is less than 1, the target is knocked down. The KB->KD IOs apply a large divisor to the KB magnitude of the power they're slotted in. On the other side of the equation, if you're attacking a lower level mob, or one that is weak to KB (like Clockwork), that can increase the magnitude of the effect to the point where a power that normally does knockdown does knockback.

 

It not user friendly for a power description to say that the power knocks down a foe if it knocks them back instead.

I don't care about it all being knockback.

If the power says in the description that it does knockdown, it should have zero magnitude knockback.

It is not user friendly how it is written no matter how much it is ingrained in the minds of long time players.

There shouldn't be a huge number of power info's that need to be corrected so it makes sense to a new player.

 

Honestly, I used to just hack it all aka did what I did without using any directions and figuring stuff out by trial and error.

[arcane]

On 1/27/2021 at 8:16 AM, srmalloy said:

No. There are powers that do knockup, and there are powers that do knockback/down. Knockback and knockdown are the same effect; only the magnitude is different. If you hit a mob with a power that does knock*, and the final adjusted magnitude of the knock effect is greater than 1, the mob is knocked back; if the final adjusted magnitude is less than 1, the target is knocked down. The KB->KD IOs apply a large divisor to the KB magnitude of the power they're slotted in. On the other side of the equation, if you're attacking a lower level mob, or one that is weak to KB (like Clockwork), that can increase the magnitude of the effect to the point where a power that normally does knockdown does knockback.

Slight correction maybe: I think the magic number is 0.67 for even con, not 1. Maybe I’m wrong tho.

[srmalloy]

1 hour ago, UltraAlt said:

It is not user friendly how it is written no matter how much it is ingrained in the minds of long time players.

It doesn't matter whether you think its description is user friendly or not; it's the way the mechanics work, and it's hard-coded into the game that way. The original game design built knockback and knockdown as ranges of effect on a single spectrum, and unless you can convince the HC devs that your pique about it not working the way you want it to is enough reason for them to rewrite a chunk of the code, it's not going to be changed.

[Grouchybeast]

2 hours ago, UltraAlt said:

It not user friendly for a power description to say that the power knocks down a foe if it knocks them back instead.

Think of it like this: it doesn't knock them back instead of knocking them down.  Foes are always knocked down.  If the magnitude is high enough, they're also knocked away.

[Doomguide2005]

And where kb vs kd is concerned the player has to learn and know which happens because of, among other things, the purple patch.  The purple patch means in this case that if you use a knock power it won't always have the same result, it will vary by level difference.  And I don't mean just level 50's playing Hellion golf in Perez Park.  It can be within the level spread of the notoriety settings.  If, for example,  my Claws Scrapper uses Shockwave vs +1 foes knockback results but if, as she's prone to do, she goes up against +4 foes Shockwave just does knockdown because of the purple patch.  I think technically there's a tiny tiny amount of kb as the magnitude drops from 1.454 to ~ 0.69 (and yes @arcaneholocaustthe 'magic' number is ~0.67).  The power description would need to include this fine print to be completely accurate.  Granted I don't think this makes @UltraAlt point any less valid ... getting the sometimes confusing and too flavorful descriptions could use some work.  But that's a QoL issue well done the list, I'd think, for the HC team.