What should the aggro cap on Homecoming be?

[golstat2003]

Just now, ivanhedgehog said:

It was boring for YOU. Not for others. Go ahead and make your teams of 8 soloers if you want, no one is stopping you. Other people want coordinated teams that actually work together. There is plenty of room in this game for all sorts of play styles.

The thing is I don't find most teams to be 8 soloers. I'll just agree to disgree and say you and I are playing vastly different games. lol

[golstat2003]

7 minutes ago, ivanhedgehog said:

increasing the cap for tanks/brutes would give them a mechanic to control the flow of battle. which makes them desirable for many people. That is the point.

And would make the game hella more boring and even easier than it is. I think you'll find a very vocal group of folks who DON'T want the game to get easier. They've been all over the forums for months saying so.

 

LOL

Edited January 17, 2021 by golstat2003

[golstat2003]

Unless something drastic has changed the Devs had already made it clear what style of aggro they want here on HC in various threads. I wish luck to those who hope to change their mind. Honestly if it changed it would make the game vastly easier for me. 😄

[oedipus_tex]

1 hour ago, golstat2003 said:

And would make the game hella more boring and even easier than it is. I think you'll find a very vocal group of folks who DON'T want the game to get easier. They've been all over the forums for months saying so.

 

LOL

 

 

Easier for who though? An increase in the aggro cap would not make it easier for Dominators unless their target caps also went up, for example. That's part of why pets are currently a mixed blessing for them, the pets lets them aggro more enemies than they can actually control. There are some kinds of powers that benefit a lot from better herding, immoveable psuedo pets mainly. Outside of farms, most powers would do somewhat but not outrageously more damage.

 

That's why I'm on the fence about what would really happen if the cap changed. As someone who rarely plays melee, suddenly having the ability to have forty or however many enemies gunning for me and only able to disable half or fewer of them would absolutely not make life easier for any character I currently own. Mainly it would make me much more careful about overaggroing and leaving the tanking to an actual Tank.

Edited January 17, 2021 by oedipus_tex

[ivanhedgehog]

21 minutes ago, oedipus_tex said:

 

 

Easier for who though? An increase in the aggro cap would not make it easier for Dominators unless their target caps also went up, for example. That's part of why pets are currently a mixed blessing for them, the pets lets them aggro more enemies than they can actually control. There are some kinds of powers that benefit a lot from better herding, immoveable psuedo pets mainly. Outside of farms, most powers would do somewhat but not outrageously more damage.

 

That's why I'm on the fence about what would really happen if the cap changed. As someone who rarely plays melee, suddenly having the ability to have forty or however many enemies gunning for me and only able to disable half or fewer of them would absolutely not make life easier for any character I currently own. Mainly it would make me much more careful about overaggroing and leaving the tanking to an actual Tank.

If it were for everyone, dps would have to be more in control of what they agro, no more leroy jenkins if you want to live, especially at lower levels. They could make a null the gull setting with the default being 17 to make it more of a choice. I could see soloing lower/midlevel defenders setting it lower even to help them. That would be a side benefit of the changes. By making the changes just for tank/brutes they could allow them to have their niche to increase their utility. And contrary to the anti herders out there, it would allow your team agro specialists to taunt mobs off of their squishier compatriots in those "oh shoot" moments. This benefits teams quite a bit. you dont have to herd to get a benefit from this.

[Infinitum]

On 1/16/2021 at 3:25 PM, DougGraves said:

If we make it unlimited we can make tankers useful at level 50 again.  Go back to just having fire/ice tankers herding the entire map while everyone else stands around the doorway.

I dont know where this comes from but since the tanker update they are very useful on teams - solo - doesnt matter.

 

And without map herding too which should never return IMO.

[gourdhead]

I'm sure someone will tell me why I'm terribly wrong, but how about making increased aggro cap a set bonus for a Taunt set?  That way, it would be something a tank had to build for, and make sacrifices in other areas. 

[Doomguide2005]

8 hours ago, ivanhedgehog said:

right now there is less reason to invite a second tank or brute. they do less damage. It would make teams that coordinate easier, which is as it should be. there are some roles that you wouldnt want multiples of on a team. empath or rad are good examples. you sont need an empath, rad or tank right now, but they do come in handy.

There are very few situations where "need" applies to anything in this game.  Personally I'm not convinced it exists at all.  As for roles where you wouldn't want multiples of Empaths or Rads ... seriously, I must be misunderstanding you.

[ivanhedgehog]

1 hour ago, Doomguide2005 said:

There are very few situations where "need" applies to anything in this game.  Personally I'm not convinced it exists at all.  As for roles where you wouldn't want multiples of Empaths or Rads ... seriously, I must be misunderstanding you.

there are a few places that "need" things. mito taunting in hami raids comes to mind. the tank/brute needs taunt. auras dont do it properly.  currently, building a team to steamroll, given the choice of a equipped DPS or an equipped tank, the DPS is the better choice.

[Infinitum]

1 hour ago, ivanhedgehog said:

there are a few places that "need" things. mito taunting in hami raids comes to mind. the tank/brute needs taunt. auras dont do it properly.  currently, building a team to steamroll, given the choice of a equipped DPS or an equipped tank, the DPS is the better choice.

i like either being the tanker or having a tanker for the steamroll they just collapse the spawn together a bit better to make it more effecient and their aoe radius are awesome now and can murder minions and lieutenants in a shot or two usually

[ivanhedgehog]

20 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

i like either being the tanker or having a tanker for the steamroll they just collapse the spawn together a bit better to make it more effecient and their aoe radius are awesome now and can murder minions and lieutenants in a shot or two usually

there is a lot of room between herding maps and mass chaos. I like having a tank that can compact groups and control the flow

 

[BelleSorciere]

Aggro cap should be 17 for all ATs.

[ivanhedgehog]

38 minutes ago, BelleSorciere said:

Aggro cap should be 17 for all ATs.

explain why? and why shouldnt aoe caps be the same for all also? and why shouldnt hold mag be the same also?

[BelleSorciere]

6 minutes ago, ivanhedgehog said:

explain why? and why shouldnt aoe caps be the same for all also? and why shouldnt hold mag be the same also?

17 is approximately one 8-person spawn, meaning you shouldn't have to tank more than that at any given five seconds of time before they're all defeated and you move to the next one. And if a team has two or more brutes and tankers you can handle a lot of aggro across the group.

 

AOE caps are only relevant in that they were implemented for the same reason aggro caps were. To prevent herding. I don't see the relevance of either question. Tankers get boosts to aggro generation compared to brutes as it is, and I am not saying brutes are underpowered or tankers are overpowered, just that there are more ways to balance aggro than changing the number of mobs who all hate you at one time. Tankers also have larger AOEs and larger AOE caps as compared to other melee ATs. 

 

[ivanhedgehog]

43 minutes ago, BelleSorciere said:

17 is approximately one 8-person spawn, meaning you shouldn't have to tank more than that at any given five seconds of time before they're all defeated and you move to the next one. And if a team has two or more brutes and tankers you can handle a lot of aggro across the group.

 

AOE caps are only relevant in that they were implemented for the same reason aggro caps were. To prevent herding. I don't see the relevance of either question. Tankers get boosts to aggro generation compared to brutes as it is, and I am not saying brutes are underpowered or tankers are overpowered, just that there are more ways to balance aggro than changing the number of mobs who all hate you at one time. Tankers also have larger AOEs and larger AOE caps as compared to other melee ATs. 

 

The relevance is if you insist that agro caps should be the same, why shouldnt other caps be the same? You have yet to offer a reason that they should be the same for all at's. agro specialists should have larger agro caps due to their job of controlling agro. Just like blasters have higher aoe caps due to their ob of damaging things. Controllers have higher mag hold due to their jobs. etc. allowing tanks/brutes to have a somewhat higher agro cap allows them to pull overflow mobs off of squishies. Not all groups are limited to 17.

[BelleSorciere]

15 minutes ago, ivanhedgehog said:

The relevance is if you insist that agro caps should be the same, why shouldnt other caps be the same? You have yet to offer a reason that they should be the same for all at's. agro specialists should have larger agro caps due to their job of controlling agro. Just like blasters have higher aoe caps due to their ob of damaging things. Controllers have higher mag hold due to their jobs. etc. allowing tanks/brutes to have a somewhat higher agro cap allows them to pull overflow mobs off of squishies. Not all groups are limited to 17.

Ranged and tanker AOEs have higher AOE caps. Why do tanker AOEs have that higher cap and also increased AOE size? Why do tankers create more hate than any other AT? Why do brutes create more than any AT but tankers? Why should brutes or tankers be able to flawlessly control all aggro? Does it really take such a long time to defeat spawns that tankers (and brutes) need to have higher aggro caps?

 

At level 50 virtually everyone has a Judgement nuke, IO sets provide significant boosts to offense and defense, temporary powers and Destiny powers can significantly buff survivability. Damage output is through the roof and survivability on teams is similar. This isn't World of Warcraft where tanks need to hold onto all the aggro (or tanks + off tanks in relevant fights) and never let any slip away or disaster strikes. You can do missions without any tankers or brutes and still be fine with a few exceptions. Some mobs slipping through the tank's aggro are great targets for the single target holds you mentioned, or stuns, or just dps them down in a few moments. If someone does drop they can use the prestige self-rezzes or get rezzed by someone else and debt is gone in moments. I don't see what the tanking problem with 17 mobs is. I've been on eight person +4 level teams with 2-4 melee and several players grabbed spawns or joined someone else who already had one and just kept blowing everything away nonstop until mission completion. 

 

If there's an overflow mob on a squishy the mob's defeated before the tanker can taunt it anyway. Also on eight person teams everyone's likely a tank mage thanks to buffs and debuffs.

Edited January 18, 2021 by BelleSorciere

[ivanhedgehog]

18 minutes ago, BelleSorciere said:

Ranged and tanker AOEs have higher AOE caps. Why do tanker AOEs have that higher cap and also increased AOE size? Why do tankers create more hate than any other AT? Why do brutes create more than any AT but tankers? Why should brutes or tankers be able to flawlessly control all aggro? Does it really take such a long time to defeat spawns that tankers (and brutes) need to have higher aggro caps?

 

At level 50 virtually everyone has a Judgement nuke, IO sets provide significant boosts to offense and defense, temporary powers and Destiny powers can significantly buff survivability. Damage output is through the roof and survivability on teams is similar. This isn't World of Warcraft where tanks need to hold onto all the aggro (or tanks + off tanks in relevant fights) and never let any slip away or disaster strikes. You can do missions without any tankers or brutes and still be fine with a few exceptions. Some mobs slipping through the tank's aggro are great targets for the single target holds you mentioned, or stuns, or just dps them down in a few moments. If someone does drop they can use the prestige self-rezzes or get rezzed by someone else and debt is gone in moments. I don't see what the tanking problem with 17 mobs is. I've been on eight person +4 level teams with 2-4 melee and several players grabbed spawns or joined someone else who already had one and just kept blowing everything away nonstop until mission completion. 

 

If there's an overflow mob on a squishy the mob's defeated before the tanker can taunt it anyway. Also on eight person teams everyone's likely a tank mage thanks to buffs and debuffs.

Then it is a good thing we dont balance around level 50 fully IOd incarnates. there are 49 other levels playing the game too, using SO's.

[BelleSorciere]

30 minutes ago, ivanhedgehog said:

Then it is a good thing we dont balance around level 50 fully IOd incarnates. there are 49 other levels playing the game too, using SO's.

My level 10 Illusion/storm joined a Posi 1 and Posi 2 task force and ended at 27. Double XP is free at the P2W vendor. Death from Below happens all the time. People power level in AE and RWZ mothership raids. 1-50 takes as long as you want it to take. And I can't speak for anyone else, but I start switching to IOs at 32. Some IOs much earlier, depending.

 

Also the Posi TFs went much the same way as I described above.

 

My dark/dark brute went from 38 to to tier 3 in five incarnate slots and tier 4 in the sixth in under a week thanks to teaming all the time, but not exclusively playing that character. And that actually seems slow.

Edited January 18, 2021 by BelleSorciere

[Xeres]

No.  Leave it as is.  We get it, there's a number of people who want to raise the cap.  And if it were a new discussion, that'd be cool.  It's not.

[Blastit]

2 hours ago, ivanhedgehog said:

The relevance is if you insist that agro caps should be the same, why shouldnt other caps be the same? You have yet to offer a reason that they should be the same for all at's. agro specialists should have larger agro caps due to their job of controlling agro. Just like blasters have higher aoe caps due to their ob of damaging things. Controllers have higher mag hold due to their jobs. etc. allowing tanks/brutes to have a somewhat higher agro cap allows them to pull overflow mobs off of squishies. Not all groups are limited to 17.

I thought that ATs all had the same aggro cap because there wasn't a feasible way to program it differently. Like, aggro caps applied to everyon equally due to being baked in and needing a whole lot of rewriting to make it work differently.

[Snarky]

1 hour ago, Blastit said:

I thought that ATs all had the same aggro cap because there wasn't a feasible way to program it differently. Like, aggro caps applied to everyon equally due to being baked in and needing a whole lot of rewriting to make it work differently.

I learned (in this thread!) that agro cap is a simple line of code attached to the map.  Or something like that.  You are suggesting adding all sorts of subroutines to it?  If Brute... If Tank....If Stalker....  Then what happens on teams?  Ooof.  

[Luminara]

A higher aggro cap for all archetypes could have some potential benefits, but only if it were specifically decoupled from the caps on targeted AoEs, PBAoEs and cones, which includes defensive powers.  The Invention system had some unexpected and unintentional effects on the game, which the Incarnate system has magnified.  Single-target powers are less valued and valuable than they were in pre-Invention era.  Buffers and debuffers are less desired, unless they bring very specific debuffs, and even those debuffs are available now outside of their previously restricted capacities.  Certain sets have fallen out of favor simply because they don't offer enough AoE.  Everyone can aggro everything, safely and easily, and burn it all down with AoEs.  Yes, it's fun, but considering how frequently people ask if they're wasting their time playing X archetype or Y set, it's clearly impacting the game as a whole.

 

Increasing the aggro cap, and only the aggro cap, might change that.  If we pull more critters than we can actually handle with our AoEs, if we pull more aggro than our defensive abilities allow us to safely ignore, if the possibility exists for us to bite off more than we can chew, then we have to change how we respond to the game.  We have to stop and think.  We have to use our buffs/debuffs to mitigate incoming damage, instead of just letting our toggles and set bonuses do the work.  We have to target and deal with dangerous foes, instead of lumping them in with the chaff.  Those sets we stopped playing because they were too focused on single-target abilities suddenly become worthwhile again.

 

Perhaps removing the aggro cap entirely is the answer, but only in concert with imposing caps on Defense powers and ensuring that all other existing target caps were enforced.  Some limitation has to be present in order for the game to provide some semblance of balance and difficulty, but I find myself agreeing that an aggro cap isn't the appropriate place to impose that limitation.  We should be allowed to screw ourselves over.  We should have some risk of pulling more than we can deal with.  Right now, if we've aggroed the spawn in front of us, the spawns to the left and right are completely harmless, as long as we're holding that initial aggro.  And that's just... wrong.  We should be in a state of panic, or exhilaration, at the thought of aggroing multiple full-sized spawns, but we aren't, because the existing aggro cap plays the nanny cop for us, keeping us safe and secure, shooing those extra critters back to their spawn point until we free up room in our cap.

 

We're adults.  We don't need a game mechanic to babysit us.  Nor should we feel disproportionately rewarded for pursuing AoE abilities in lieu of single-target abilities, or set bonuses and pool powers instead of teammates.  So if it were up for a vote, I'd say yes, remove the aggro cap entirely, implement a cap on all Defense powers and let's see what we're really made of.

 

[SwitchFade]

I rarely do this, because it's time consuming to do... But I did, just for you guys 😂 I dug through one of the threads @Glacier Peak linked for a post I made and copied it here, as this was the fullest explanation/point I posted on the subject... Heres my old post, because it's relevant, no disrespect @oedipus_tex...

 

 

Removing the aggro cap would not solve any of the issues being discussed. A tank that can afk 17, can afk 200. This was proven on live. The only result of removing the aggro limit would be the return to a tank now being able to control the aggro of everything, thereby eliminating any potential threat to anyone.

 

On live, before the aggro changes, I was able to hold aggro of limitless foes and never be harmed. This made game play for all other players single faceted. My tanks are now actually tougher than live and if they can stand on GM island with 10 GMs pounding away and afk, then there's no number of minions and LTs that could be a threat that the game engine could get within perceptual range.

 

The aggro cap doesn't remove risk, it ADDS risk to all other toons. Anything above 17 will aggro someone ELSE, so every other non-tank type is going to feel the pain. This introduces tactical gameplay. The argument that "we run in, kill one group and move on," is not an issue of aggro, but of spawn design.

 

Let me be clear, spawn size, spawn spacing and spawn density are the issue many mistake for "omg 17 aggro makes game nofunz." Next time you think this is not true, run a map that puts 30 MOBs in close proximity and watch how the tank cannot protect the team. Remove the cap? I can now trivialize all other players.

 

Tanks were the INDIRECT target of an aggro limit. Tanks should NEVER be able to control all the aggro. The target was to balance risk, reward and dynamic gameplay and it did just that. Now, before rushing in everyone needs to be aware of just how many MOBs there are and the very real possibility that a tank can't just be an I win button.

 

This is the same reason controllers had their AoE hold adjusted, a single power or AT could effectively neuter all MOBs.

 

Make no mistake, if you raise or remove the aggro cap all that would result is less risk to everyone, less dynamic gameplay and less for everyone to do. Further, mob spacing, mob size, mob density and more would all have to be adjusted. Even more to the point, any team that didn't have a tank would have a really bad day, as the increased threat that no other AT can handle would instantly dirt nap them.

 

Let's take the "realism" argument and put it in a nice glass case called reality of gameplay: in the real world, that stupid, lumbering unthreatening tank would be ignored as I rapidly Gank support toons. Really, in the real world, defenders and controllers go down first, always.

 

None of this debate should even consider lvl 50 "zerging" gameplay with twinked sets. Load up a lvl 25 team on SOs and it will become very clear that a limit of 17 is very well designed aspect of gameplay, because virtually no AT can even handle 17, let alone 30, 50 or no limit.

 

I'm sorry, but fighting groups of MOBs from factions like council, freaks or even carnies on maps that isolate groups from each other in different rooms and break line of sight is not "solvable" by increasing aggro cap; even if aggro cap were raised, the additional MOBs can't see you.

 

Want proof the aggro cap makes things more dynamic? Go fight banished pantheon at level 50+ where groups of MOBs spawn close to each other and watch how the cap makes everyone a target. Remove that cap? Now, no threat to anyone but the tank. One dimensional gameplay again.

 

So yeah, enjoy textwall! 😁

[Ukase]

Opinions are definitely going to vary. My thoughts are - if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Last I looked, it wasn't broken. 
There's a reason the cap was put in place. Respect it. 

There is no reason to raise it that can't be refuted by some philosophical argument or another. (and the converse is true) 

I say that not to be contrary, but imagine this: 

Assume no obstructions. 
Two ships on a parallel path north, side by side. If the ship on the west (left on your imaginary map) takes an ever so slight turn of 1 degree to the west, it's barely noticeable at first. 

After a time, though, the two ships are quite far apart. 


So why this nautical tale? I picture the ship on the left to be HC CoH, and the ship on the right to be the CoH from shut down. We keep these changes up, and the game is drastically different from what it was. It's already changed so much, and some of these changes while fun in the short term for some, have led to disappointment for others. 

Fortunately, the game is still free for us to use. And we have the right to see if the way others servers do things is more to our liking. At this point, for me, I have a lot of time invested in HC CoH already and prefer not to go elsewhere. But I don't want to see all these changes taking place, just so a tank can herd the Eden trial into one room and a blaster can go Nova and explode a small fraction of the hundreds trying to eat the inedible tank. Sure it's fun, but it's only fun a few times, then it's kind of dull. (but that is likely just me)

Do we really want to go back to a time when the only viable ATs are those that can herd and those than can nuke? I don't. 

Some may argue that a tank should be able to grab aggro off of a wayward teammate that gets into trouble. I respect this view - but isn't it time we placed responsibility on the shoulders of these careless players? Pay attention people! If the team splits because some of you aren't following the tank - it's not the tank's fault. They are not responsible for you anymore than the defenders/corruptors/controllers/MMs are to heal/buff you. (or those with incarnate destinies). You have inspirations in your tray for a reason. Use them if you can't pay attention.  //end  rant. 

Thank you. I feel much better now. 

[tidge]

As a Tanker since day one of Live: The only thing I miss about NOT having an aggro cap is eventually being able to herd all the Rikti monkeys to Portal Court.