"The Game is not Balanced around IO's"..... should it be?

[ForeverLaxx]

12 minutes ago, summers said:

Rest assured that +0/x1 exists.

Yes, thanks for the condescending retort.

[summers]

Just now, ForeverLaxx said:

Yes, thanks for the condescending retort.

According to your post the sky is falling so often that we're afraid we might need 200% accuracy and 59% defence. I think you need to sit back and breathe.

[ForeverLaxx]

17 minutes ago, summers said:

According to your post the sky is falling so often that we're afraid we might need 200% accuracy and 59% defence. I think you need to sit back and breathe.

Hyperbole to make a point. I guess that's lost on some people these days.

 

I've made multiple posts in this thread already, for what it's worth. My point, which you missed, is that re-balancing the game for how it's "obviously played by the assumed majority" will essentially ruin what the game already is and why we already play it. The powers formulae exist under an assumed SO slotting value, the AT modifiers are designed to maintain parity under an assumed SO slotting value of powers, and enemy numbers are balanced against the player's assumed (scaled from TO/DO/SO) slotting value. The whole game, from the ground up, is built upon SOs. Only the latest Incarnate content throws a wrench into this design, but even in that case, it's added difficulty because of Incarnate powers and not because of set bonus advantages.

 

To go back and try to undo all of this so that min/maxers (which, again, I'm one of most of the time) can start feeling what it's like to be "challenged" again is a fool's errand. It would be a ton of work for even a paid development team, let alone an entirely volunteer one. Irrespective of that, it would alienate every player who isn't pushing their build to the limit.

 

That's not why I play City of Heroes.

[Snarky]

2 hours ago, ForeverLaxx said:

Irrespective of that, it would alienate every player who isn't pushing their build to the limit.

oh, it would alienate at least one player who pushes their builds to the limit.

 

and stop me from EVER alting onto an odd duck just to experiment.   and be crushed.

[oedipus_tex]

2 hours ago, ForeverLaxx said:

To go back and try to undo all of this so that min/maxers (which, again, I'm one of most of the time) can start feeling what it's like to be "challenged" again is a fool's errand. It would be a ton of work for even a paid development team, let alone an entirely volunteer one. Irrespective of that, it would alienate every player who isn't pushing their build to the limit.

 

Not really going to agree with you here. The game has gone through a number of metas. There wasn't a point where non IOed builds were getting crushed and the game was punishingly difficult. 

[ForeverLaxx]

16 minutes ago, oedipus_tex said:

 

Not really going to agree with you here. The game has gone through a number of metas. There wasn't a point where non IOed builds were getting crushed and the game was punishingly difficult. 

I never really said it was difficult. I'm pretty sure I implied the opposite in that you can pretty much build however you want and enjoy yourself without missing much, if anything at all. The only "challenge" is when you're completely new to a system and trying to work things out. For example, compare Dark Souls 3 to Dark Souls 1. People will tell you that 3 is a lot easier than 1 because their memory tells them that 1 was harder due to being new to the concept, but by the time 3 rolls around they're much more experienced with the system and what to expect. After I made a handful of characters in Bloodborne and DS3, I went back to play Dark Souls Remastered and was amused at how comparatively easy it was to 3. So amused, in fact, I could no longer really fathom how Dark Souls 1 was touted as a "ball-busting difficult game that doesn't hold your hand" simply because the lessons learned playing later editions to the series made the original practically a cakewalk.

 

While I'm not against new content designed to challenge Incarnates, as that's a system you're introduced to and actively directed to engage in to further character power in a lore-based way, I am against increasing game difficulty to account for set bonuses that you can't even guarantee people are using. Hell, you can't even guarantee that people are all using the same ones! Yes, when it comes to a min/max perspective of getting all the "correct stats" a lot of builds start looking the same, but not everyone is going to go in that direction. Once you start heading down the path of changing enemies to account for higher "base" values of player characters, any character that isn't reaching that threshold is no longer able to compete and hits a wall until they incorporate powers slotting that has now become "the dev's choice" instead of your own.

 

I understand you're not really advocating for that level of change, if any change at all. In fact, I'm pretty sure you've stated that you'd rather the game be left alone unless I misunderstood or missed a post somewhere. I'm just sharing my opinion on the matter, garnered from years experience in other games where the dev team involved decided the players were too safe or weren't playing "correct".

Edited February 22, 2021 by ForeverLaxx

[oedipus_tex]

7 minutes ago, ForeverLaxx said:

I never really said it was difficult. I'm pretty sure I implied the opposite in that you can pretty much build however you want and enjoy yourself without missing much, if anything at all. The only "challenge" is when you're completely new to a system and trying to work things out. For example, compare Dark Souls 3 to Dark Souls 1. People will tell you that 3 is a lot easier than 1 because their memory tells them that 1 was harder due to be new to the concept, but by the time 3 rolls around they're much more experienced with the system and what to expect. After I made a handful of characters in Bloodborne and DS3, I went back to play Dark Souls Remastered and was amused at how comparatively easy it was to 3. So amused, in fact, I could no longer really fathom how Dark Souls 1 was touted as a "ball-busting difficult game that doesn't hold your hand" simply because the lessons learned playing later editions to the series made the original practically a cakewalk.

Well again I can't really agree. City of Heroes is easier in 2021 because it is actually easier. I used to run an expensive Dominator build on live just before incarnates launched that could solo Rikti at +0x8, and that felt powerful. Around the time of the servers closing I had gotten that to +1. Now my benchmark is an easy +4x8. 

That's possible because the numbers have shifted, not because I got better. The baseline Defense-to-all of that character shifted from +3 to +11, the strength of a Dispersion Bubble. That was possible mainly because, the saying was, it doesn't matter. End gamers are going to do what end gamers are going to do, the game is based on SOs so why even think about what IOs are doing. 

At the end of the day I think it's fair for developers to think about the average equipment their players have access to when they make stuff. I'm writing a powerset for Controller/Dominators right now, and for sure I'm thinking about what happens when it goes permadom, for example. I think the last time "balanced around SOs" was true was three presidents ago. Most of the newer powersets seem aware of the system they'll be part of.

[golstat2003]

6 hours ago, Frosticus said:

I guess I wonder why we even need the crafting step in place? Why can't crafted IO's just drop instead of recipes and salvage?

The barrier to entry seems to be that it is unreasonable to expect players to craft IO's. I'm inclined to agree, it is probably the most boring activity in this game (for me). 

 

Buying already crafted IO's is cumbersome as well. You need to know tricks to get prices to display among other issues.

 

For those that enjoy the crafting mini game perhaps just "some" crafted IO's could drop. At which point balancing around some degree of IO usage would be more palatable?

Pretty much this. Also the AH is terrible. It and other parts of the Inventions system needs a revamp before we start talking about making assumptions about difficulty based on IOs.

 

At the very list the persistent bugs should be quashed. I don't buy the idea that a terrible interface/experience is part of balance. If something isn't working it should be fixed.

Edited February 22, 2021 by golstat2003

[golstat2003]

6 hours ago, oedipus_tex said:

 

 

I think this is a good point. The gear progression in City of Heroes is unconnected to the gameplay loop in a lot of ways. Part of my disconnect to the game in the old days was a feeling that the only way to progress past a certain point was to farm. Just playing normally didn't seem to get you far. I'll give the Homecoming server credit, because I have less of a feeling of that here.

City of Heroes has always reminded me of the Diablo series more than most other MMOs (interesting because World of Warcraft is literally built by the company behind Diablo). There's this sense of "you against a dungeon of nonsense" in CoX that I've always found enjoyable. But the "drops" in Diablo were always more exciting. In City of Heroes I definitely don't get a Rikti Alloy and go "Awesome! One step closer to my end game build!" 

 

CoX is interesting because it actually has two models of drop systems in its standard gear and its incarnate system. I feel like more people figure out the incarnate system. Maybe because its rewards are more straightforward? 

This and the fact that the incarnate system doesn't touch the awful AH interface. 

[Myrmidon]

2 hours ago, oedipus_tex said:

Well again I can't really agree. City of Heroes is easier in 2021 because it is actually easier. I used to run an expensive Dominator build on live just before incarnates launched that could solo Rikti at +0x8, and that felt powerful. Around the time of the servers closing I had gotten that to +1. Now my benchmark is an easy +4x8. 

This is likely due to the easy access that we have to the Invention system we currently have in this game. As someone that converted over completely to Store-bought Origins (what you call Attuned nowadays) and actually paid money to avoid that old, completely craptastic Invention system, I could daily give thanks to whatever imaginary deity of your choice that the “old ways” are dead and buried. If people want to be Demi-gods, let them. With time, I’m certain the content will evolve along with us (so long as it’s more story content and less “Trials until we puke”).

[Replacement]

4 hours ago, ForeverLaxx said:

While I'm not against new content designed to challenge Incarnates, as that's a system you're introduced to and actively directed to engage in to further character power in a lore-based way, I am against increasing game difficulty to account for set bonuses that you can't even guarantee people are using

This got me thinking, it's weird the same rationale for Incarnate content isn't reflected for IO content.

 

I think in a more standard MMO, the order of operations goes:

* Baseline game difficulty and player power.

* Introduce new subsystem for players to engage in, which increases power ceiling.

* Create new content tied to the new subsystem, which expects the additional power.

 

I understand Cryptic-Paragon had a policy of not locking content to "power gaming" and that's how we ended up here.

 

But I would submit the largest issue in that mindset is limiting content to story. 

An example would be something like the mass effect multiplayer modes: you have a small introductory plot, then you fight waves of bad guys, with random objectives every once in a while. You can beat it on the "story" difficulty and call it done, or you can start working on IOs and keep trying to go big on the difficulty. 

 

A lot of systems like this have ways to keep adding modifiers to keep upping the challenge more and more, which appeals to the high end players without feeling "required" for story-mode types.

 

--

 

This will feel like a sudden hard left turn on this post, but this is AE's fault.

 

All those other games that use their new subsystems to push their new content promise "greater rewards and greater power."

When money=power and AE is the best way to earn money and xp, the incentives for anything like what I'm talking about evaporate.  The "I wanted to challenge myself" crowd isn't that big.

 

Also going to echo @oedipus_tex- this is more musing than wanting real change at this point. While I would be ok with difficulty increases starting around 35 (if they were minor and unfrustrating), I think at this point it would be upsetting the compact between player and developer.  I can muse about how AE needs deleted without actually wanting it to happen on Homecoming.

[GM Lines]

It's good to see lots of discussion.

 

Just don't forget to keep it chill. ❤️

[Grindingsucks]

13 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

It is, due to it being a barrier to access gane, need to overcome. Like all things in the game, it doesn't exist in a vacuum due to you getting random drops all the time (like my lvl 16 mm example) and all the info available nowadays. It leans into the question of the player base, if most people use it and its relatively easy to do it outside the drop system and crappy UI... then changing those bits would be worthwhile. 

 

As another said, I don't think it's too advanced to see an IO and get a gist of what it does. "Chance of Energy Damage" in a "PBAoE Attack" are straightforward to a point where if you just hover over the power you're looking at / clicking the enhancement once made it will show you what to do. It just gets complex when you start looking at stacked bonuses across multiple powers.

 

I think its important to recognize that while you shouldn't balance for the tippity top, the same should be said of the very bottom. There is a certain set of expectations that game has of a player past a certain point in terms of learning the ropes. I would like to assume the base level of balance should be like... level 30ish where you should have played long enough to learn the basics in and out. 

The bugs in the auction house need to be fixed.  This is an issue completely divorced from, and unrelated to, game balance.

 

Regarding systems complexity, what comprises user friendly or overly complex may be subjective to the individual- I'll grant you that much.  But I don't think it's too much of a stretch to assume that things that are intuitive and accessible are more likely to attract and retain a larger percentage of players, than things that are frustrating and hard to access.  I feel the invention system leans very strongly towards the latter, rather than the former.  The various bugs in the AH only compound the issue.

 

As for balancing the game, play should progress smoothly across all levels and should be balanced across all levels, because players want to enjoy the game at all levels.  If the game is poorly balanced at the early, mid, or end-levels of play (whether too hard, or too difficult), it will be unsatisfying to play at those levels.  Wherever game play is not properly balanced, that problem should be identified and steps taken to correct it, assuming you want to retain player interest across all levels of the game.  At the present, I think the game is poorly balanced at end-level play, due to power creep, so that is where I feel attention ought to be focused. 

 

I understand that not everyone agrees about where balance issues exist in the present iteration of the game (or, indeed, if they even exist at all), but I feel it's extremely important for the devs to take as unbiased and honest look at the game systems as is possible, and then address whatever balance issues they perceive in as effective and practical way as possible.

 

I do, of course, acknowledge that with a small, volunteer staff, we must be patient and understand that they have the right to decide what projects they are going to prioritize and that their priorities may necessarily differ from our own.

[golstat2003]

2 hours ago, Grindingsucks said:

The bugs in the auction house need to be fixed.  This is an issue completely divorced from, and unrelated to, game balance.

 

Regarding systems complexity, what comprises user friendly or overly complex may be subjective to the individual- I'll grant you that much.  But I don't think it's too much of a stretch to assume that things that are intuitive and accessible are more likely to attract and retain a larger percentage of players, than things that are frustrating and hard to access.  I feel the invention system leans very strongly towards the latter, rather than the former.  The various bugs in the AH only compound the issue.

 

As for balancing the game, play should progress smoothly across all levels and should be balanced across all levels, because players want to enjoy the game at all levels.  If the game is poorly balanced at the early, mid, or end-levels of play (whether too hard, or too difficult), it will be unsatisfying to play at those levels.  Wherever game play is not properly balanced, that problem should be identified and steps taken to correct it, assuming you want to retain player interest across all levels of the game.  At the present, I think the game is poorly balanced at end-level play, due to power creep, so that is where I feel attention ought to be focused. 

 

I understand that not everyone agrees about where balance issues exist in the present iteration of the game (or, indeed, if they even exist at all), but I feel it's extremely important for the devs to take as unbiased and honest look at the game systems as is possible, and then address whatever balance issues they perceive in as effective and practical way as possible.

 

I do, of course, acknowledge that with a small, volunteer staff, we must be patient and understand that they have the right to decide what projects they are going to prioritize and that their priorities may necessarily differ from our own.

Good summary of the thread.

[Myrmidon]

5 hours ago, Replacement said:

This will feel like a sudden hard left turn on this post, but this is AE's fault.

 

All those other games that use their new subsystems to push their new content promise "greater rewards and greater power."

When money=power and AE is the best way to earn money and xp, the incentives for anything like what I'm talking about evaporate.  The "I wanted to challenge myself" crowd isn't that big.

AE is not the best way to earn Influence, however other than that, this is absolutely right. AE could use either a rethink or a shutdown.

[Haijinx]

Game is super easy.

 

No indication at all that situation will ever change.

 

Yet there is a definite force of easiness guardians ready to fite off those who say its too easy. 

 

Think they should chill.  This isn't an active game design discussion.

 

Its a post mortem. 

[Snarky]

1 minute ago, Myrmidon said:

AE is not the best way to earn Influence, however other than that, this is absolutely right. AE could use either a rethink or a shutdown.

I made 800 million on the market in the last week.  This despite market prices being down from a year ago.  I do not like AE and have done maybe an hour tops in last week as an second 'hitter' in a big farm helping lowbies.

 

I do like Task Forces.  I run endless Task Forces and Trials.  I take merits, buy Enhancement Converters.  I get recipes as cheap as I can from AH (prices have gone up!) and craft/convert, sell (prices have gone down) and still make tons of cash.

 

I suppose you will argue that all of the influence in the game originates in AE.  Let me just say.  NO.

 

If there were no AE people would be sidekicking lowbies and/or running solo endless PI door missions.  Or another 'farm'  

 

The logic that starts with 'the problem originates in AE' is about as useful as a bucket with a hole in the bottom.

 

Carry on.

[Hew]

I play a LOT of chars on generic ios only. Mild set io slotting, primarily for the holy globals/procs/whatever (numi,pana,miracle,sw, the resist one, the other +def/res ones, some of those new endmod bits) and thats it. 

 

I log in to tune out. I don't want to think or stress. I want to mash buttons and mash faces/tentacles/whatevers. I am pretty sure a lot of other people agree with this sentiment as well.

 

Over the past LOTS of years, coh has always been casual. You don't sit in front of a pond fishing for hours (literally standing there, with a stick) to get some rare piece of material to make some random piece of something.

 

You go, mash some faces, hope for drops, market casually, and continue on your way regardless because really? You never needed that whateveritwas. You were just as hero with, as without, that pvp io, purple, ato, whatever.

[SwitchFade]

After careful thought on all of this...

 

1. Game balance should be around SOs, slightly left of center.

 

2. Purple patch should be slightly adjusted so controll type powers are more effective at +4

 

3. New content should be balanced around SOs, with newer game mechanics for more interesting challenges

 

4. Incarnate attacks and lore should be exemp lvl 49, not 45. Other incarnate abilities, such as alpha and musculature should remain exemp 45

 

5. New 50+ regular content should be balanced around SOs, slightly right of center.

 

6. New End Game content should be balanced to be normal at +2-3, with difficulty using game mechanics like the new @Piecemeal arcs (good stuff).

 

7. 50+ content should allow +5 as a setting.

 

8. Market interface refresh, tutorial refresh.

 

9. Incarnate content should leverage existing unused zones like shadow shard.

 

10. This one is debatable --> as diff level rises, a small Buff to MOB HP by 5-8%, over lvl 35.

 

11. P2W offers +xp/-inf, it should offer -xp/no inf change

Edited February 22, 2021 by SwitchFade

[ForeverLaxx]

12 hours ago, oedipus_tex said:

City of Heroes is easier in 2021 because it is actually easier

Easier due to experience. I run generic 25 IOs, which are inconsequentially weaker than SOs and the game is just as "difficult" now for my characters as it was after ED was introduced into the system. That is to say, still not difficult by standard measures as CoH was never really hard to start with, but to pretend the game is magically easier now than before with zero slotting system updates is absurd. The top-end power level is definitely more accessible than it was on live, to be sure, but the game didn't adjust itself downward just because everyone else had an easier time pushing themselves upward than before. The game's balance didn't change at all, but the costly barrier to access Set IOs was reduced, causing more people to be "tricked out" than before and skewing the perception that game is now easier when in fact, nothing really changed under the hood. It'd be like saying Dark Souls is easier because you knew the trick to get the Drake Sword early on, or Dark Souls 3 is easier because you knew to use a Raw modification on the Astora Straight Sword you find early in the game.

 

This is why I'd want new content for Incarnates rather than a rebalance of old content. People who aren't using Set IOs shouldn't be expected to use them simply because they're "better", especially since the entire system is still 100% optional -- no contact even directs you to a University for the purpose of learning the crafting system. I'm not going to get into the muddied nature of the creation of new powersets as I feel too many of them these days require too many powers picked from the set to even function (I much prefer sets with minimal "must haves" with additional cool flavor/role powers to fill out choices for character diversity), but only Dominators really seem to have been built with permaDom status in mind. Even in the Dominator's case though, the damage that was granted during Domination was rolled into the base AT itself and Domination really only provides increased mez duration and magnitude, on top of an endurance refill and a nominal ToHit boost -- hardly anything worth being concerned about for standard content.

[oedipus_tex]

4 minutes ago, ForeverLaxx said:

Easier due to experience. I run generic 25 IOs, which are inconsequentially weaker than SOs and the game is just as "difficult" now for my characters as it was after ED was introduced into the system. That is to say, still not difficult by standard measures as CoH was never really hard to start with, but to pretend the game is magically easier now than before with zero slotting system updates is absurd. The top-end power level is definitely more accessible than it was on live, to be sure, but the game didn't adjust itself downward just because everyone else had an easier time pushing themselves upward than before. The game's balance didn't change at all, but the costly barrier to access Set IOs was reduced, causing more people to be "tricked out" than before and skewing the perception that game is now easier when in fact, nothing really changed under the hood. It'd be like saying Dark Souls is easier because you knew the trick to get the Drake Sword early on, or Dark Souls 3 is easier because you knew to use a Raw modification on the Astora Straight Sword you find early in the game.

 

This is why I'd want new content for Incarnates rather than a rebalance of old content. People who aren't using Set IOs shouldn't be expected to use them simply because they're "better", especially since the entire system is still 100% optional -- no contact even directs you to a University for the purpose of learning the crafting system. I'm not going to get into the muddied nature of the creation of new powersets as I feel too many of them these days require too many powers picked from the set to even function (I much prefer sets with minimal "must haves" with additional cool flavor/role powers to fill out choices for character diversity), but only Dominators really seem to have been built with permaDom status in mind. Even in the Dominator's case though, the damage that was granted during Domination was rolled into the base AT itself and Domination really only provides increased mez duration and magnitude, on top of an endurance refill and a nominal ToHit boost -- hardly anything worth being concerned about for standard content.

 

 

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

One thing that is somewhat unique about CoX's situation is that there aren't a whole lot of gated content areas. You have iTrials for that, mainly. The rest of the content is usually scalable. So when we talk about build performance, a lot of the time what we're talking about is whether players are running identical content on +0 or +4. When players are forced to take a step down, they're still usually able to do the same material on a lower setting. 

Although this conversation is mainly about IOs, IMO there hasn't been any system as destabilizing to this combat engine as Level Shifts. This is a topic that deserves its own thread. Level Shifts work in reverse of the purple patch; they get better when level differences get higher. This happens because shifting a +4 enemy down to +3 is better than shifting a +1 enemy to +0. If I were to open my own server and change literally nothing else, the one change I'd insist on that Level Shifts be either removed or confined specifically to iTrials. 

I like to be surprised, and maybe there's an enterprising dev team out there that's ready to tackle making new high end missions and task forces. Already some of the dev teams out there have made some ambitious things that are impressive in their scope. On the other hand part of me sees all this pretty decent content that currently exists and how unengaging it feels. Tagging along behind a team that can obliterate enemies before I can get to them makes me lose interest in teaming fast. The fact that this content could scale properly but doesn't because some players feel they should be allowed to run at the highest difficulty setting at all times makes me want to seek alternative solutions.

[Myrmidon]

3 hours ago, Snarky said:

I made 800 million on the market in the last week.  This despite market prices being down from a year ago.  I do not like AE and have done maybe an hour tops in last week as an second 'hitter' in a big farm helping lowbies.

 

I do like Task Forces.  I run endless Task Forces and Trials.  I take merits, buy Enhancement Converters.  I get recipes as cheap as I can from AH (prices have gone up!) and craft/convert, sell (prices have gone down) and still make tons of cash.

 

I suppose you will argue that all of the influence in the game originates in AE.  Let me just say.  NO.

 

If there were no AE people would be sidekicking lowbies and/or running solo endless PI door missions.  Or another 'farm'  

 

The logic that starts with 'the problem originates in AE' is about as useful as a bucket with a hole in the bottom.

 

Carry on.

 

AE is completely wasted on being a farming hub when it could be used to make more of that challenging content balance that is being discussed here.

 

Get rid of rewards for AE aside from Dev’s Choice (which would make Infernal and Drek happy as they are likely so lonely after all of these years) and make it the “difficult content” hub.

[Galaxy Brain]

2 hours ago, Grindingsucks said:

Really good summary

Agreed, all these exist as an ecosystem though!

 

The point about the game's progression is super poignant and something I had thought of a lot. Specifically, you get this ramp-up of gear as you level up until lvl 30. It starts with TO's at the very start, and those are quickly replaced at level 12 with DO's, your first milestone and a notable power jump. Similarly, you bump up at 22 with SO's and by level 30-ish it is safe to assume you'd be fully on SO's with drops / inf gain allowing it.... and then that's sorta it. For what would then be the majority of your character's life (time-wise it takes way longer to get from 30-50 than 1-30) your only "normal" progression is just getting more slots to place more SO's / replacing old SO's with level-appropriate ones. 

 

To me, it seems like it would be natural to have the next step at around lvl 32 to be moving up to more complex enhancements (IO sets), except for this issue:

47 minutes ago, Hew said:

Over the past LOTS of years, coh has always been casual. You don't sit in front of a pond fishing for hours (literally standing there, with a stick) to get some rare piece of material to make some random piece of something.

Technically, you do sort of sit in front of a pond trying to get materials to make a random piece of something because thats how the drops and recipes work. If you were to play totally "natural" and avoid the market, the rando set recipes that fall into your lap then need rando salvage pieces in order to craft them, and you may not even be able to use the thing. If past 30/32 IOs could randomly drop into your tray that would be a whole lot simpler. At least, if certain ones could drop (uniques, procs, purples, etc could still be locked behind crafting) you could much more easily slot as you go and make the game more dynamic for even casual players which may be discouraged from diving into a frankly huge part of the game that is locked behind obtuse UI / mechanics. This is even more muddied as of today with SO's basically being there ASAP for new characters.

 

As a side note, the early lvl IO sets are basically useless as SO's / Generic IO's often surpass them, and often pale in comparison to other IO sets you'd have access to at lvl 25-30 anyways and could stand to be bumped up.

 

As for difficulty, this has been said a lot but the game doesn't *really* get harder as you level either with the mobs you encounter outside a few, its more that they get much more frustrating. Carnies and Nemesis are great examples here where they have mechanics that you cannot really interact with and cause you to just sort of wait it out between their Phasing, Personal Force Fields, and stacking vengeance if you happen to kill the wrong guy. The former is just annoying as there is 0 interaction aside from timing when to attack, which makes fights with Carnies feel almost like padding more than actually a difficult fight. The latter is similarly frustrating with the fake nems just going into time out if you do not take care of them fast enough (other bosses do this too and it's not exactly fun... you just sort of get put on time-out as well), or worse yet you are punished for trying to do the main objective of every mission: defeat enemies (Carnies also punish you for defeating them... but it's not as bad). This is gonna be a hot take, but Malta is way better designed in this regard. There are several stand-out enemies in the faction (Titans, Sappers, Gunslingers) which become priority targets above the rest which affects player choice where they can impact you directly if you do not single them out / deal with them effectively. They are difficult if you just run in at them blindly, as are other enemy types like Sky Raiders (Engineers), Cimerorans (surgeons), devouring earth (their summonable buffs) or Rikti (various, but mainly portal dudes) to a point where there are unique enemies that can make the fight much harder if you do not prioritize them and make smart choices and strategies. Hell, even Freakshow do the "punish you for defeating them" thing right as specifically Super-Stunners can be singled out and are a boss encounter that is not likely to go down in an alpha strike, and even their revive can be baited and avoided by players if you let them use their self heal! A lot of this gets lost as you get to higher end enemies where it just becomes an exercise in patience where they just have a bunch of time-out modes, and in a more meta sense the more interesting enemies are susceptible to just being nuked and don't pose any extra threats. 

 

There are a few enemy types too where they are hard due to raw power (Vanguard, Rularuu, high-end Praetorians) but they are locked away to specific arcs and are not often highlighted in things like the weekly strike target / hard to get to in general. Dark Astoria enemies are.... well lets say it's weird in that they fit the bill of above but while in DA you are an incarnate and get a free +1 level shift at least which makes the "casual" encounters there kind of weird. The enemies in the wards are also somewhat out of the way to get to but they provide a nice challenge too! But this sort of speaks to the issue of choice and access in that we get presented with "Hey, you can either travel to the night ward and take on badass stuff! Or, you can just run radios vs the lowest enemy type faster for basically the same net gain and lower risk / travel time".

 

Now, wouldn't it be cool if there were some way for drops to come off this more difficult content right into your tray, encouraging you to play outside of your bubble and take on the more interesting stuff if you so choose....? 😉

 

Some of this all does relate to enemy design. There should definitely be a pass on some of these groups where they can mitigate some of the things players do to mess with their intended strategy. If a minion is key to the group's identity where they can buff/summon stuff... well it is sort of not gonna happen most of the time as an AoE will just delete them and the faction then loses part of what makes it special. If they are allowed to do their unique stuff without just being obliterated (inherent AoE defense on *certain* enemies, etc) they would naturally become more cerebral a challenge and not just a "I have better stats so I win now" which is what we see with IO's on individuals, which get compounded by team buffs/etc to where the max difficulty is now the norm. Likewise, some enemies like Carnies should 100% be nerfed/altered as fighting them is avoided due to them not being seen as FUN by most players. Imagine if Illusionists could cast "Phase" on others, but locking them down or defeating them (or maybe hitting them if its interruptible) allows you to prevent that, instead of it just being on auto and forcing you to wait randomly.

 

Some of this then goes to enhancements, where if (some) set IO's were normal drops that would cut away a ton of access issues and make it so frankenslotting and some IO bonuses could be expected. In turn, just as earlier level enemies scale in threat to you so should later level ones as you move on from the basic SO's. Should it expect fully-kitted out players? NO IT SHOULD NOT. Should it expect like, "above SO level by a notch or two"? Sounds good to me as you get into the 40's. As the threats ramp up to match your more powerful hero, so should the expected drops (gear) from them in order to keep pace. This feeds back into the above where minor tweaks could go a long way to make fights a bit more engaging and thus open up more doors for existing playstyles that get drowned out in the current meta. For example, there could be tweaks where some enemies are weak to crowd control, but otherwise are beasts in their own right... like War Wolves. Lets say they have instant healing as an option they can use as well as their inherent 25% res to all, and they also get a new savage melee attack thrown in. This is a tough foe for sure, where IO bonuses would help to right them in terms of raw strength... but also if you manage to stun / sleep / hold them, they become much easier to tackle since their clicks + possibly their inherent armor gets shut off.

 

Some of this also relates to access / rewards. Making big chunks of the game come more naturally to you instead of having to fish for parts + craft them is one thing, but it could also be tied to some of the more avoided content. Imagine if Redside missions allowed you to actually rob a place and get IO's as loot? Or if goldside enemies just had a higher drop rate? Those parts of the game are avoided for many reasons, a main one being that Blueside is more.... I guess you could say "ergonomic" and accommodating, but giving more incentive to try your luck in those spots could be healthy and not require huge redesigns. This is already sortof in the game with the higher end missions allowing you to get Incarnate rewards, this could be a smaller / expanded (depending on your perspective) version of just that.

 

 

This went on longer than I thought, but the gist of my view is this:

 

The IO system is a HUGE part of the game, but it is locked behind obtuse barriers for no real reason (outside a few specialties). At the same time, many enemies are designed in such a way or in certain locations to where there is little reason to go after one vs another, and these clash in a weird way when you have people who deck out characters in the BIG "OPTIONAL" part of the game stomp on things that people default to since even when they're decked out there is little reason to go after the challenging stuff that's already there. Removing some barriers and at the same time adding to the "less popular" areas in the same swoop could be a nice change for the game that doesn't require a radical redesign of everything, but it all boils down to expectations.

[Troo]

I just wanna pause and recognize:

 

[golstat2003]

4 hours ago, Myrmidon said:

AE is not the best way to earn Influence, however other than that, this is absolutely right. AE could use either a rethink or a shutdown.

I think that ship has unfortunately sailed.