"The Game is not Balanced around IO's"..... should it be?

[golstat2003]

4 hours ago, Hew said:

I play a LOT of chars on generic ios only. Mild set io slotting, primarily for the holy globals/procs/whatever (numi,pana,miracle,sw, the resist one, the other +def/res ones, some of those new endmod bits) and thats it. 

 

I log in to tune out. I don't want to think or stress. I want to mash buttons and mash faces/tentacles/whatevers. I am pretty sure a lot of other people agree with this sentiment as well.

 

Over the past LOTS of years, coh has always been casual. You don't sit in front of a pond fishing for hours (literally standing there, with a stick) to get some rare piece of material to make some random piece of something.

 

You go, mash some faces, hope for drops, market casually, and continue on your way regardless because really? You never needed that whateveritwas. You were just as hero with, as without, that pvp io, purple, ato, whatever.

Pretty much this. Most players don't care how difficult the game isn't. They aren't here for difficult gameplay. That was really never the point of COH.

Edited February 22, 2021 by golstat2003

[golstat2003]

1 hour ago, oedipus_tex said:

 

 

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

One thing that is somewhat unique about CoX's situation is that there aren't a whole lot of gated content areas. You have iTrials for that, mainly. The rest of the content is usually scalable. So when we talk about build performance, a lot of the time what we're talking about is whether players are running identical content on +0 or +4. When players are forced to take a step down, they're still usually able to do the same material on a lower setting. 

Although this conversation is mainly about IOs, IMO there hasn't been any system as destabilizing to this combat engine as Level Shifts. This is a topic that deserves its own thread. Level Shifts work in reverse of the purple patch; they get better when level differences get higher. This happens because shifting a +4 enemy down to +3 is better than shifting a +1 enemy to +0. If I were to open my own server and change literally nothing else, the one change I'd insist on that Level Shifts be either removed or confined specifically to iTrials. 

I like to be surprised, and maybe there's an enterprising dev team out there that's ready to tackle making new high end missions and task forces. Already some of the dev teams out there have made some ambitious things that are impressive in their scope. On the other hand part of me sees all this pretty decent content that currently exists and how unengaging it feels. Tagging along behind a team that can obliterate enemies before I can get to them makes me lose interest in teaming fast. The fact that this content could scale properly but doesn't because some players feel they should be allowed to run at the highest difficulty setting at all times makes me want to seek alternative solutions.

Only 1 of the level shifts can be used out of iTrials. That's always been the case. Even on live.

[Myrmidon]

6 minutes ago, golstat2003 said:

I think that ship has unfortunately sailed.

True and it’s a pity since that would be the easy way out.

[Galaxy Brain]

Just now, golstat2003 said:

Pretty much this. Most players don't care how difficult the game isn't. They aren't here for difficult gameplay. That was really never the point of COH.

It's not, but there is a line where you then get cases like @oedipus_texmentioned:

 

 

1 hour ago, oedipus_tex said:

I like to be surprised, and maybe there's an enterprising dev team out there that's ready to tackle making new high end missions and task forces. Already some of the dev teams out there have made some ambitious things that are impressive in their scope. On the other hand part of me sees all this pretty decent content that currently exists and how unengaging it feels. Tagging along behind a team that can obliterate enemies before I can get to them makes me lose interest in teaming fast. The fact that this content could scale properly but doesn't because some players feel they should be allowed to run at the highest difficulty setting at all times makes me want to seek alternative solutions.

 

As well as an anecdote about even his vet lvl 100 dominator feeling superfluous, a part of the issue is that the game *is* easy, and then you give us the ability to stomp it down even further to where the base content (playing together as a team) can actually be less fun. That is an issue I think that is worth addressing as it continues to crop up over and over and over by the players. 

 

[golstat2003]

3 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

It's not, but there is a line where you then get cases like @oedipus_texmentioned:

 

 

 

As well as an anecdote about even his vet lvl 100 dominator feeling superfluous, a part of the issue is that the game *is* easy, and then you give us the ability to stomp it down even further to where the base content (playing together as a team) can actually be less fun. That is an issue I think that is worth addressing as it continues to crop up over and over and over by the players. 

 

It depends on how you intend to address it.

 

I think the dev team has better things to spend their EXTREMELY limited time on.

 

If were were getting content updates as we were on live I wouldn't keep bringing that limit on dev resources up. But we aren't. We have to be careful about what we ask them to spend time on, as there is an opportunity cost with that.

 

I don't think wholesale rebalances are needed or necessary. Certainly not more than the other things folks have been asking for.

 

Others will and have disagree/disagreed.

 

/shrug

Edited February 22, 2021 by golstat2003

[arcane]

2 hours ago, ForeverLaxx said:

Easier due to experience. I run generic 25 IOs, which are inconsequentially weaker than SOs and the game is just as "difficult" now for my characters as it was after ED was introduced into the system. That is to say, still not difficult by standard measures as CoH was never really hard to start with, but to pretend the game is magically easier now than before with zero slotting system updates is absurd. The top-end power level is definitely more accessible than it was on live, to be sure, but the game didn't adjust itself downward just because everyone else had an easier time pushing themselves upward than before. The game's balance didn't change at all, but the costly barrier to access Set IOs was reduced, causing more people to be "tricked out" than before and skewing the perception that game is now easier when in fact, nothing really changed under the hood. It'd be like saying Dark Souls is easier because you knew the trick to get the Drake Sword early on, or Dark Souls 3 is easier because you knew to use a Raw modification on the Astora Straight Sword you find early in the game.

 

This is why I'd want new content for Incarnates rather than a rebalance of old content. People who aren't using Set IOs shouldn't be expected to use them simply because they're "better", especially since the entire system is still 100% optional -- no contact even directs you to a University for the purpose of learning the crafting system. I'm not going to get into the muddied nature of the creation of new powersets as I feel too many of them these days require too many powers picked from the set to even function (I much prefer sets with minimal "must haves" with additional cool flavor/role powers to fill out choices for character diversity), but only Dominators really seem to have been built with permaDom status in mind. Even in the Dominator's case though, the damage that was granted during Domination was rolled into the base AT itself and Domination really only provides increased mez duration and magnitude, on top of an endurance refill and a nominal ToHit boost -- hardly anything worth being concerned about for standard content.

Nope it has definitely gotten way easier outside of IO’s and such too. 

[tidge]

Heh, it was my Vet Level ?? Dominator that helped out the new player who needed help unlocking his Alpha slot.

[Galaxy Brain]

14 minutes ago, golstat2003 said:

It depends on how you intend to address it.

 

I think the dev team has better things to spend their EXTREMELY limited time on.

 

If were were getting content updates as we were on live I wouldn't keep bringing that limit on dev resources up. But we aren't. We have to be careful about what we ask them to spend time on, as there is an opportunity cost with that.

 

I don't think wholesale rebalances are needed or necessary. Certainly not more than the other things folks have been asking for.

 

Others will and have disagree

 

/shrug

I think it can be worthwhile depending on the impact it gives to multiple areas of the game. Control sets feel kinda "off" for many, as do certain buff sets due to how self-sufficient players can become. Much like how Immobilizes would not matter as much if Runners weren't a thing (as a random example), a similar solution could be used where more things can be dealt with more effectively by crowd control which by proxy makes a whole slew of powers, power sets, and AT's more valuable and "viable" than before. You could buff control sets all you want, but in the end they still gotta "compete" with raw firepower and base survival, so instead you give them more to chew on where they can be as viable as damage.

 

This is a big hypothetical mind you, but I always feel that is an example of where changes to the *game* may be necessary.

 

For a really, really weird analogy let's look at Paper Mario.

 

(No, really, its a very simple game but has a nice way in how it tackles different forms of combat)

 

In that game, you take turns attacking enemies and for the most part, it doesn't really matter what you use. However, there are certain enemies that are MUCH easier to defeat if you Jump on them, or use the Hammer on them specifically. There are ways around this, like if an enemy has a spike on it's head you can use equipment to jump on it where you normally cannot, or likewise use an ability to throw your hammer at an enemy in the air where you normally cannot hammer them, but those require you to go out of your way in order to make that option "work" (but it's still allowed!). The base design throws challenges at the player where certain options have different values, but throughout the game they are roughly equal as there is ample opportunities for both to shine as well as times where one outshines the other, but most of the time either is just as viable.

 

Where CoH is trending towards is like if you could defeat all enemies with the Jump safely, why bother with the Hammer (control)? Giving us stuff where the Hammer is just as good if not sometimes a bit more effective instead of being less so could be nice and by proxy "buff" a ton of powers by giving them something extra to do.

 

 

6 minutes ago, tidge said:

Heh, it was my Vet Level ?? Dominator that helped out the new player who needed help unlocking his Alpha slot.

 

My B! I saw him mention a dominator when looking back and thought it was the same story 😅

Edited February 22, 2021 by Galaxy Brain

[Apparition]

Honestly, I think a huge part of the problem is veteran levels.  Incarnate abilities are entirely too easily earned.  The ability to earn threads outside of Incarnate content is nice, but Empyrean merits should have remained gated behind Dark Astoria and Incarnate trials.

 

However, that ship has long sailed.

[Hew]

Re: too-easy/too-hard teams, this really boils down to I think who is running what. It has less to do with the content, and more to do with the people leading the charge.

 

People like to feel super, and lagging behind a team steamrolling 54s is no fun. This is well agreed upon.

 

But then, there are people that _heavily_ recruit casuals. That means, it isnt going to be +4 content. It is going to go leisurely. It will have a ringer or two that knows to be mindful of the noobs. EVERYONE will get to use their powers. The exp may not be OMG levulz 1 to 50 in 1.1 Millieseconds! (shout out to my friend Millie :). But everyone will have fun. Those kinds of teams tend to breed long term global friends of people like minded.

 

Grab a lowbie, run a SSA arc (wwd 1,2,3,4 are all great, or 6 for the battleships!!!) on noob difficulty, AT LEVEL (dont downgrade your pimped out 50, take an actual 20's char to wwd2 for instance) with randos. Don't crank difficulty. Just walk through it peaceably! Sometimes, you can max out your powers use by, gasp, just using a char still growing, not one you kitted out with hundreds of millions of inf!

[arcane]

If people are lagging behind the team, IMO it’s pretty obvious to just think “this is because my build isn’t done” rather than to complain.

[golstat2003]

2 hours ago, Apparition said:

Honestly, I think a huge part of the problem is veteran levels.  Incarnate abilities are entirely too easily earned.  The ability to earn threads outside of Incarnate content is nice, but Empyrean merits should have remained gated behind Dark Astoria and Incarnate trials.

 

However, that ship has long sailed.

I think the issue was this was that they could not create enough incarnate content like Dark Astoria, to keep up with the demand. Hell the had trouble creating Incarnate TFs like Tin/Pex. Content creation isn't easy. So I think the opening of a true solo path by Score/HC (and a few other servers) was inevitable.

[golstat2003]

2 hours ago, Hew said:

Re: too-easy/too-hard teams, this really boils down to I think who is running what. It has less to do with the content, and more to do with the people leading the charge.

 

People like to feel super, and lagging behind a team steamrolling 54s is no fun. This is well agreed upon.

 

But then, there are people that _heavily_ recruit casuals. That means, it isnt going to be +4 content. It is going to go leisurely. It will have a ringer or two that knows to be mindful of the noobs. EVERYONE will get to use their powers. The exp may not be OMG levulz 1 to 50 in 1.1 Millieseconds! (shout out to my friend Millie :). But everyone will have fun. Those kinds of teams tend to breed long term global friends of people like minded.

 

Grab a lowbie, run a SSA arc (wwd 1,2,3,4 are all great, or 6 for the battleships!!!) on noob difficulty, AT LEVEL (dont downgrade your pimped out 50, take an actual 20's char to wwd2 for instance) with randos. Don't crank difficulty. Just walk through it peaceably! Sometimes, you can max out your powers use by, gasp, just using a char still growing, not one you kitted out with hundreds of millions of inf!

Hmmm, this is true. I have seen a few teams now choosing to run at base difficulty. Similar to how speed run tfs don't go beyond the base.

[Haijinx]

The valuable dev time canard seems like a cop out to be honest. 

 

It takes less than a week to reach max level just casually pugging it.

 

So of course no dev time should ever be spent on high level balance.  

 

I fully expect it never to be addressed but the rationalizations need to get more creative. 

[golstat2003]

6 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

The valuable dev time canard seems like a cop out to be honest. 

 

It takes less than a week to reach max level just casually pugging it.

 

So of course no dev time should ever be spent on high level balance.  

 

I fully expect it never to be addressed but the rationalizations need to get more creative. 

Individual targeted buffs and nerfs should be what they continue (see Blaster changes, TW changes) to do. 

 

Wholesale rebalancing of large parts of the game would be pointless.

Edited February 22, 2021 by golstat2003

[Frosticus]

I'd 100% be in favour of an "IO enabled" setting akin to "Bosses or AV's enabled" in the notoriety settings. At which point it would cover -1/0 up to +4/8.

What would it do?

-10-15% reward bonus

-add the "annoying" mobs/powers back(into) the factions. IIRC (maybe it was just a dream), but at one point they pulled a whole bunch of crowd control powers and debuffs from a wide range of factions because they were too "hard".

 

*for example. I think it was altered so only 1 (maybe 2) tsoo sorcerers can be in a spawn. And I think they nerfed their -range as well? A x8 spawn should have as many as 4? if it followed normal mob spawning rules?

 

 

[Hew]

58 minutes ago, arcaneholocaust said:

If people are lagging behind the team, IMO it’s pretty obvious to just think “this is because my build isn’t done” rather than to complain.

Except hey, maybe, just maybe!! their build on all generics IS done.

 

Whoa, novel concept that, a build being 100% done on just SOs or generics.

[Haijinx]

17 minutes ago, golstat2003 said:

Individual targeted buffs and nerfs should be what they continue (see Blaster changes, TW changes) to do. 

 

Wholesale rebalancing of large parts of the game would be pointless.

Pointless or not the Easy is moar fun crowd need better material .

[golstat2003]

2 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

Pointless or not the Easy is moar fun crowd need better material .

Okay dude. LOL

[Blackfeather]

8 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Where CoH is trending towards is like if you could defeat all enemies with the Jump safely, why bother with the Hammer (control)? Giving us stuff where the Hammer is just as good if not sometimes a bit more effective instead of being less so could be nice and by proxy "buff" a ton of powers by giving them something extra to do.

I see control-type powers at their best when they help increase safety for the team...but of course that use begins to trail off when such safety isn't necessary, such as in the higher levels, or in highly optimised teams. To that end, I'd personally go about incorporating things that address this by way of this question: "in what situations would control-type powers be uniquely helpful to a dangerous fight?"

 

After some quick thoughts, I came up with some ideas:

• Enemies that deal percentage-based damage to a character (ignores high resistances/high HP)
• Enemies that have auto-hitting attacks or high base accuracy ones, such as many existing DoT patch powers (ignores high defences)
• Enemies that resurrect or spawn more of themselves after being defeated (mitigates high damage, slow recharge attacks)
  • E.g. Devouring Earth, Apparitions
• Enemies that call for reinforcements/ambush teams at specific intervals (mitigates high damage, slow recharge attacks)
• Enemies with pulsing absorb powers that are shut down when controlled (mitigates low damage, fast recharge attacks)
• Enemies that are damaged for a percentage of their health per attack (mitigates high damage, slow recharge attacks)

I tried to keep in mind the survivability of relatively 'squishier' characters, and to not disproportionately affect them in the process, while still increasing their overall difficulty. Of course, I wouldn't expect every mob to have enemies like this...but incorporating them here and there would probably give control powers room to shine here and there, by providing scenarios where their excellent safety mitigates damage in a way unique to them.

Edited February 23, 2021 by Blackfeather

[Bill Z Bubba]

3 hours ago, Apparition said:

Honestly, I think a huge part of the problem is veteran levels.  Incarnate abilities are entirely too easily earned.  The ability to earn threads outside of Incarnate content is nice, but Empyrean merits should have remained gated behind Dark Astoria and Incarnate trials.

 

However, that ship has long sailed.

And should stay sailed. Being forced to team for some reasonable level of incarnate progression was ridiculous before the snap and was a primary reason for one of my long breaks from CoH.

 

I'm not saying some middle ground couldn't be found but the old ways were the greater of two evils by far.

[Troo]

+1

 

Single player or small team additional incarnate content would be well received.

[Carnifax]

I'd quite like some 4 or 5 man SBB style trials and mini-TFs with unique rewards. Some new sets or whatever. They don't have to be OMGSOGUD, just something interesting. I quite liked the new Targetted AOE and End Mod sets when they were added. Something like that in some way. 

 

Doesn't have to be in the same tone as SBB but something more suited to a 4 or 5 man team (on an 8 man everyone is ~3/8ths obsolete anyway). 

 

 

[arcane]

1 hour ago, Hew said:

Except hey, maybe, just maybe!! their build on all generics IS done.

 

Whoa, novel concept that, a build being 100% done on just SOs or generics.

You don’t get to simultaneously self gimp and complain about being left behind.

[Galaxy Brain]

11 minutes ago, Carnifax said:

I'd quite like some 4 or 5 man SBB style trials and mini-TFs with unique rewards. Some new sets or whatever. They don't have to be OMGSOGUD, just something interesting. I quite liked the new Targetted AOE and End Mod sets when they were added. Something like that in some way. 

 

Doesn't have to be in the same tone as SBB but something more suited to a 4 or 5 man team (on an 8 man everyone is ~3/8ths obsolete anyway). 

 

 

Id dig this as well, the SBB is so fun specifically since it has a small team feel + it splits you up on purpose for something unique.

 

3 minutes ago, arcaneholocaust said:

You don’t get to simultaneously self gimp and complain about being left behind.

So this circles back to the main topic... of the game is supposed to be "SO level", is the fact that players run around way beyond that something to address?