I out-evil'd myself.

[GM Impervium]

So, at the start of the weekend, I noticed something in the market that I found disturbing. A certain commodity had a LOT of items for sale, no bids, and the going price was... insultingly low. This is something that should be a desirable item and should go for at LEAST 1K. So, I decided to do some cleanup by bidding on as many of them as I could to clear out the cheapies, and have some "false bids" up so they looked like they would have more demand and bump up prices a bit. That was Friday night, and in the meantime, I, uh, forgotten I had done that.

I logged in today, and... All the false bids filled.

I now have HUNDREDS of these damn things I now have to go and delete. Agh! I done played myself!

I figured people would appreciate that even GMs make silly mistakes 😃

Edited March 1, 2021 by GM Impervium

[Yomo Kimyata]

I hear you and as a fellow human, I sympathize.  It's tough to make silly mistakes.

 

As a player, this reinforces that this is not a market driven economy and that any fiction of a free market can disappear in an instant at the whim of a GM.  I don't have words right now to describe how I feel about this.

 

EDIT:  I think I just realized that you acted as an individual player, and did not use any programming reserved for developers.  If that is the case, then this is just stupid market tricks.  

Edited March 1, 2021 by Yomo Kimyata

[Troo]

So we're getting Hami conversions?

[Ura Hero]

He said he was fixing the incorrect display price on all the items.  I'm sure that is what I read.

 

I did something similar in WoW a long, long time ago.  I was price fixing a commodity that someone was trying to force out all the players by undercutting.  I had millions and millions of gold so I just bought up everything they put on sale.  Worked great for a while.  I forced them to move to greener pastures and enjoyed selling the thousands of items they had created at what was a normal price on the other servers, but still a significant markup to what I had bought them at.  The bad part was I still had in hundreds of crazy lowball bids that I forgot to cancel.  Some schmuck came in and did to me what I did to the other guy.  I didn't mid too bad, I had more than tripled my initial stake so although I took a pounding, I still ended up way ahead.  

Edited March 1, 2021 by Ura Hero

[Andreah]

12 hours ago, GM Impervium said:

I now have HUNDREDS of these damn things I now have to go and delete. Agh! I done played myself!

... you could repost them for sale at 1. 😄

[Aeroprism]

This put a smile on my face on this grey morning.  Homecoming is so awesome, even the market becomes an AV.  

 

 

[Andreah]

It's like a school of shark-AV's, all ready to frenzy feed if you make a mistake.

[Ukase]

17 hours ago, GM Impervium said:

So, at the start of the weekend, I noticed something in the market that I found disturbing. A certain commodity had a LOT of items for sale, no bids, and the going price was... insultingly low. 

So...my only question is, How/why did you trust the display? There are a number of times that the shown data is not accurate. 

 

[Yomo Kimyata]

13 hours ago, Ura Hero said:

He said he was fixing the incorrect display price on all the items.  I'm sure that is what I read.

 

 

I didn't read it that way at all.  My initial reading, which I now think was wrong, was that they adjusted supply and demand by artificially using dev tools.  On second look and after the OPs edit, it just looks like they thought that the HOs in question were too cheap, so they bought them all and put in a bunch of "fake" bids in order to try and fool people into believing there was actual demand.  And then their bids got hit because there was no actual demand.  Standard market manipulation, which we really can't stop, but I would have expected better from a GM.  It's not like marketers have the best reputation to begin with, but a GM bragging about trying to trick people doesn't really help people trust the marketplace system. 

 

Let me put it this way:  I expect cops to run red lights while stopping/preventing crime, but I don't expect them to run red lights off duty to get to the donut shop faster.

[Ukase]

Yeah, things like this are why I stopped selling rare salvage. I'd had a ton of it for sale at what was then a lower than the prevailing price by about 15%, and then they seeded the salvage, which kind of borked the way things were going. 

We never know what's going on with the market, really. 

Just a good thing it's not real money. 

[Ura Hero]

1 hour ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

I didn't read it that way at all.  My initial reading, which I now think was wrong, was that they adjusted supply and demand by artificially using dev tools.  On second look and after the OPs edit, it just looks like they thought that the HOs in question were too cheap, so they bought them all and put in a bunch of "fake" bids in order to try and fool people into believing there was actual demand.  And then their bids got hit because there was no actual demand.  Standard market manipulation, which we really can't stop, but I would have expected better from a GM.  It's not like marketers have the best reputation to begin with, but a GM bragging about trying to trick people doesn't really help people trust the marketplace system. 

 

Let me put it this way:  I expect cops to run red lights while stopping/preventing crime, but I don't expect them to run red lights off duty to get to the donut shop faster.

 

You missed the sarcasm.

 

I didn't see it that way at all.  GM's are players too after all.  Heck, any one of us could be a GM and no one would ever know.  Why should they be held to a different standard than we are?  There are some pretty strict rules for GM's from what I understand from reading the post that was recently made asking for help.  I really don't think this was done on a GM account even though it was posted on a GM account.  Even if it were, trying to keep what happened on Live from happening here, IMHO is a good thing.  I really don't want to spend a half million on a Luck Charm again.

 

The way I see it, a GM was telling something funny and it unfortunately ended up being misinterpreted.  I hope this doesn't deter them from interacting with the player base.  I rather enjoy it when they do.

[Yomo Kimyata]

3 minutes ago, Ura Hero said:

 

The way I see it, a GM was telling something funny and it unfortunately ended up being misinterpreted.  I hope this doesn't deter them from interacting with the player base.  I rather enjoy it when they do.

I'm down with that!

[Andreah]

I read the (edited) OP as a standard thing a player working the market would do, not as a GM effort.

 

The person saw an item that had no current bids to buy, and that had last sold at a very low price. Imagine this is some useful unique thing, and the history says they're going for a few thousand each, and there's hundreds and hundreds for sale, and no one is bidding for them right now. Could be a stats blip, sure .. but if it's not -- OMG what a deal!! Time to work the magic.

 

You do a few trials bids and buys, and convince yourself it's not a market stats blip. So you buy up every one that's listed real low like that, and you -know- they'll sell for millions. So you need to get that history cleared. You put in bids for a bunch in the modest million just to prime the pump as it were. You set it up and then log for a while, very pleased with yourself! Muahaha! The cackles and mustache twirling are epic! 

 

And then you forget. 

 

Log in days later, you've bought a mess of these things at your pump-priming price, and omg, the going price dropped back down before you could strike and sell your stash. Buy high sell low ... wait, that's wrong. Your monocle falls to the floor as you realize the scale of your mistake!

 

Fortunately, the story is entertaining and self-deprecatingly funny, so you write it up and post it in the forums for others to enjoy. 

 

---

 

Edit: Why does anyone bother with stuff that sells at 1K? Or even 10K?  Even at 10K, and flipping 200 stacks of ten, that's not really a lot of profit for the effort.

Edited March 2, 2021 by Andreah

[Saikochoro]

2 hours ago, Andreah said:

Edit: Why does anyone bother with stuff that sells at 1K? Or even 10K?  Even at 10K, and flipping 200 stacks of ten, that's not really a lot of profit for the effort.

People will find any and all avenues to make money in the game. I personally do not have patience for small profit/high volume schemes. My marketing is basically 2m+ or skip. 

[Grindingsucks]

5 hours ago, Saikochoro said:

People will find any and all avenues to make money in the game. I personally do not have patience for small profit/high volume schemes. My marketing is basically 2m+ or skip. 

Same. 

 

In fact, anyone that manages to buy their purple recipes for 8 to 10 million can probably thank my tendency to list everything at 1 inf, just so I can quickly get in and out of the AH with a minimum of fuss.

[Andreah]

2 hours ago, Grindingsucks said:

In fact, anyone that manages to buy their purple recipes for 8 to 10 million can probably thank my tendency to list everything at 1 inf, just so I can quickly get in and out of the AH with a minimum of fuss.

I'm a tactical pricer, and yet I have to admit, sometimes I want to list for 1 just to skip the trouble. 

[Ukase]

11 hours ago, Andreah said:

Edit: Why does anyone bother with stuff that sells at 1K? Or even 10K?  Even at 10K, and flipping 200 stacks of ten, that's not really a lot of profit for the effort.

I do these types of things on my "challenge" characters that are to start with zero, no help from other characters, no inf assistance, zip. When you're level 1, with zero inf, you can't even afford a jet pack to get the 5 reward merits because one badge is on top of the globe. (it can be a hassle asking for a port up there, and besides, part of the challenge is to do these things without assistance.) 

So, after a few kills to get at least some influence so I can sell an inspiration from the Inner Inspiration power, I'm inclined to "nickel and dime" things for a while until I have accumulated enough inf to do some marketing at a more appropriate price-level. 

[Yomo Kimyata]

13 hours ago, Andreah said:

 

 

Edit: Why does anyone bother with stuff that sells at 1K? Or even 10K?  Even at 10K, and flipping 200 stacks of ten, that's not really a lot of profit for the effort.

For me, a couple of different reasons:

1.  Like @Ukasesaid, it's a good way to get a character started from scratch.

2.  It's good practice, and it (hopefully) helps to keep the mind sharp.  I could use some help there, for sure.

3.  I think it's fun.  Sometimes. 

 

In real life there are tons of financial strategies that are super low risk and super low margin that aren't worth the effort until you leverage it up 100x.  And those are the strategies that make bank.  Well, until they go pear shaped.

[tidge]

14 hours ago, Andreah said:

Edit: Why does anyone bother with stuff that sells at 1K? Or even 10K?  Even at 10K, and flipping 200 stacks of ten, that's not really a lot of profit for the effort.

The first 50 are for the badge(s), after that it is just to clear out stuff that other players can use for cheap.

 

Just a fer-instance: waiting for a Hamidon raid to start is a perfect time to dump inspirations into the Auction house to clear slots. It doesn't bother me what level of profit (if any) folks may be getting off of those.

[GM Impervium]

Hey all! Just popping back in to clarify a few things and hopefully not embarass myself more than I already have!

 

First, yes, this was done on my regular account, no GM tools or anything else used. I'm sorry for leaving that open to interpretation, I should have been more clear. In fact, mistake number two was posting about this on my GM forum account to begin with. Live and learn!

 

Second, this was just me, not part of some vaster GM or Dev-led conspiracy. If we were doing something on an official level, we would announce it (unless we were countering an active expoit, I suppose, in which case we would only announce something once the situation had been resolved). That said, with some obvious exceptions (seeding, bucketing, etc) we're rather lassiez faire, and content to let the market run itself.

 

And third, none of this was intended to fuel any speculation about current or future development. So, no, I don't know when or even if we'll be able to convert Hami-Os. Sorry 😞

 

That about covers it. I'm sorry for having caused a stir, I'll use better judgement next time!

Edited March 2, 2021 by GM Impervium
A word

[Coyotedancer]

So... you set out to intentionally jack up the price on something, just for the lolz... and got bitten in the proverbial butt as a result.

 

There's a lesson there, somewhere. 😝

[TemporalVileTerror]

Yeah.  If the price was low, I'd consider that a triumph, and actively working against that does make the comeuppance feel apt.

[Marine X]

This is where I'm at with the Market. I read in another post how on some of the other lower population servers, the Markets are like a Grocery Store the day before a Snow Storm, empty. If there is anything there, it is Insanely Expensive, but mostly, like Level 54 Hamis, nothing is even available. Our Market Economy on HC is Fantastic. I can consider Sets here that were mostly unattainable on Live, and fully deck out Character after Character with whatever I want, not having to worry about what I can afford. The Devs have done an amazing job of keeping the Market viable and I appreciate it. @GM Imperviumwas just playing with the market as a regular player, and we have guides here that explain how to become Wealthy that way, his method is just not one I recall reading about.  

[Marine X]

On 3/7/2021 at 9:01 AM, TemporalVileTerror said:

If the price was low, I'd consider that a triumph

Maybe, but then consider that we want people to feed the Market, and we want low level Unfunded Characters to be able to equip themselves through the Salvage and Influence they earn. If people can get 250Inf each for common salvage, 1000inf for uncommon, through any Store or Auto Doc, which are not feeding the Market, What is the Incentive to place it on the Market for 10-50Inf? Keeping buying and selling prices both fair is probably best for everyone, at least on the common and uncommon.

[TemporalVileTerror]

"Incentive to be prosocial."

That's the crux of WHY I think this market model is a huge problem, and why I'm a strong advocate for making further changes to this market system to promote behaviour which feeds in to spreading benefits to the entirety of the community, while minimizing the opportunities for predatory and antisocial behaviour.

 

I will continue to place items in to the market listed at 1 Inf.  Yes, that means that predatory players will be able to exploit my efforts to drive down prices and create accessibility.  I just hope to encourage a substantial enough number of other players to follow suit with me, so that we can undermine the profiteers through sheer volume.  If the collective community expects to be able to buy Common Salvage for 1 Inf at all times, market forces should limit the number of players who are able to capitalize on buying up stock and trying to resell at grossly inflated prices.

It would be good ideas, in my opinion, to further incentivize players to share items while also limiting the ease which predators can exploit that.