For player understanding and balancing, can each AT and powerset be described with its niche?

[HelBlaiz]

My personal description for Blasters would be High Risk Damage. The AT gets very little innate protection. Its best defense is ending fights quickly, its second best defense is exploiting range, and its third best is its, relatively new, sustain powers. A blaster who stays at range is safe, insofar as they don't have to worry about melee attacks, but a lot of mez powers, debuffs and other dangers are ranged. Its far more effective to delete a Sapper than avoid melee attacks, for example. Snipe powers can allow for a blaster to do both, but a second might call for a T3 Blast plus Melee combo to eliminate as quickly as possible. A blaster has to gauge these situations carefully while a Scrappers response is always dive in head first and scrap, let the armor toggles sort it out.

[Andreah]

10 minutes ago, HelBlaiz said:

My personal description for Blasters would be High Risk Damage. The AT gets very little innate protection. Its best defense is ending fights quickly, its second best defense is exploiting range, and its third best is its, relatively new, sustain powers. A blaster who stays at range is safe, insofar as they don't have to worry about melee attacks, but a lot of mez powers, debuffs and other dangers are ranged. Its far more effective to delete a Sapper than avoid melee attacks, for example. Snipe powers can allow for a blaster to do both, but a second might call for a T3 Blast plus Melee combo to eliminate as quickly as possible. A blaster has to gauge these situations carefully while a Scrappers response is always dive in head first and scrap, let the armor toggles sort it out.

I have one blaster, rushed to fifty to use for ebil marketeering purposes. I compulsively built it as best I could along the way for damage output, and this description fits very well. I was amazed at how survivable it was simply by rapidly defeating threats. And getting out to distance when things were too dangerous next to the tank.

[Andreah]

I like O_T's breakdown into Raw Force archetypes and Multiplying Force archetypes. But I would follow the metaphor more closely and call the first group the Additive Force archetypes.

 

And none of them are purely in one or the other; e.g., if a tank has maneuvers or assault, that's multiplicative. The tanks management of aggro, done skillfully, is a multiplier. Defenders and corrs have some mostly additive attacks, and so on.

 

So perhaps a 1-10 rating for each archetype for being Additive or Multiplicative would make sense.

 

Except, the choice of primaries/secondaries is huge, too. And the pools, and then the slotting. And even then, some players can play multiplicatively, or others additively, by their skill and understanding of game tactics. 

 

I don't think an exhaustive list is practical. 

 

Which takes me back to O_T's list, which with the caveat "YMMV",  I like very much.

Edited April 11, 2021 by Andreah

[catsi563]

as others have said the game is very versatile and doesnt really fit into a one size fits all category for the most part. however the ATs can work on some simple basic parameters most times

 

Blaster Glass Cannon ranged Artillery

Scrapper strong boss killer and goon sweeper

tank  hard target and close agro control

Controller ranged crowd control and debuffs

Defender strong support and debuffs

Sentinel Mid Close ranged direct fire support

 

Kheldians
Peacebringers Versatile Close to mid ranged assault capable of providing direct damage at any range needed to support the team

Warshade Focused Close to mid range damage dealer with the caveat of the more bodies around the better also supports the team

 

Brutes Supreme goon sweepers and secondary tanks

Stalkers Dedicated high burst  Boss killers with decent clean up skills

Corruptors Offensive defenders or Offenders corruptors debuff in order to do damage

Dominators direct damage crowd control  able to lock down bosses and even AVs at certain points

Masterminds Force multipliers and battlefield controllers 

 

Soldiers of Arachnos

Widows Close ranged stealth damage  an team ssupport

Forutnatas ranged psy damage and artillery and team support

 

Bane/Wolf spiders mid to close ranged direct damage  and team support

Crabs close to mid ranged artillery and team support

 

Both VEATs and HEAT are noted as team support because they benefit the team and are benefited by team members

 

Kheldians get specific buffs for each AT on a team  that boosts them considerably

 

Spiders/widows have team leadership buffs that benefit teammates 

 

in closing each AT has its place on teams and can operate for the most part solo with a little effort

 

quick edit to add that i agree with others posted above about raw force and multiplitive force adders

Edited April 11, 2021 by catsi563

[Troo]

 There are resources for general descriptions and tactics.

 

Descriptions

https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/Archetypes

https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/Corruptor

http://web.archive.org/web/20121025125321/http://na.cityofheroes.com/en/game_info/archetypes/hero_archetypes.php

 

Tactics/Strategy

https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/Blaster_Strategy

https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/Dominator_Strategy

https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/Brute_Strategy

https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/Tanker_Strategy

https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/Stalker_Strategy

https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/Mastermind_Strategy

https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/Defender_Strategy

https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/Corruptor_Strategy

 

Hopefully this is what was being asked.. (maybe I've over simplified it)

 

 

[arcane]

I wouldn’t really say GW2 was really any more strict about roles than this. More or less every class had the option to be high damage vs tanky vs supportive. Pretty much all 3 light armor classes could be built to be insanely tanky.

 

Agree with others though, there are nuances down to the power/powerset level that make it not super helpful to define roles/niches by AT. 

[Grindingsucks]

14 hours ago, Heraclea said:

To me the ATs divide into two even simpler camps:

 

Has mez protection:

 

- Tanker

- Scrapper

- Brute

- Sentinel

- Arachnos soldier

- Kheldian

- Stalker

 

Sometimes has mez protection, based on level of investment with merits/inf and build stage:

 

- Blaster

- Dominator

- Mastermind (not really, but can usually diffuse single target mezzes)

 

No native mez protection:

 

- Defender

- Controller

- Corruptor

 

 

I fall fairly conatantly in the 'mez protection' camp.  Characters with mez protection avoid the single most annoying and frustrating mechanic in the game.  They are fun to play on teams and fun solo.  They are the money and merit makers that support the rest of the roster. 

 

Characters lacking mez protection are team specialists for specific purposes.   Those characters need teams to be fun to play, and are built to be useful on teams, providing things like debuffs to help the team take down difficult targets.  My poison/dark defender comes out whenever anyone wants to run the Kahn TF, for instance.  She is fun because she makes the TF much faster and easier.  Not great for soloing, IMO. 

 

You have a great point.  This is also an important consideration when choosing an AT (and how you build them).  It's also one of the reasons that I really enjoy certain sets.  Willpower, for example, gets very broad mez protection, so it's a great choice if you find yourself frustrated by geting mez'd (I confess that I do.  Then again, who doesn't?  Maybe blasters, since they can still hit back via their T1/T2 powers).

 

I must confess (and yes, this is a bit off-topic, I suppose) that I've always thought choosing a particular powerset as your Primary should give you some mez protection against effects deriving from that particular kind of attack.  For instance, a controller with Psi as their primary should be protected from being confused/stunned/whatever by mez from psionic attack sources.  It just doesn't feel quite "right" that a powerful psionicist should still be vulnerable to being stunned by a psionic assault, when a simple bare-knuckled brawler can shrug it off.

[Coyotedancer]

19 hours ago, TemporalVileTerror said:

Two syllables?

How are you pronouncing "ranged," @Snarky?

 

<_<

 

>_>

 

"Blapper"

[oedipus_tex]

Mainly I have used the Multiplier/Raw as a rule of thumb when leading teams, especially prior to level 35, and especially in older versions of the game that were a bit harder.

 

If I expected a Multiplier but got Storm (a multiplier but leaning pretty raw) or prebuffed Trick Arrow (supposedly a multiplier but bad at it) I would keep looking for a multiplier. Adding a Raw with some distraction powers like control/tanking can help a little but won't usually turn things around. I wouldn't reject someone based on their class but I might raise or lower difficulty. 

 

For iTrials a Multiplier is always useful. A Raw can be useful but there are a few archetypes that really do lag here (sorry, most Sentinels, Dominators, and pre-buff off Tankers, but you are the weakest link). 

[Wavicle]

Masterminds are not and never have been an aggro management class. They are a Support class.

[Wavicle]

Just now, 5099y_74c05 said:

They were intended to be at one point.

I've heard this claim many times and never seen a bit of evidence.

I guess it's possible that a dev may have said something like that at some point, but since they don't have taunts it clearly was never actually the case.

[Wavicle]

When I break the ATs into categories I do it likes this (keeping in mind Team Composition does not require ANY one particular class OR role, and again intentionally simplified):

Tanks:

 

Tanker

Kheldians

Brute

 

 

Support/CC:

 

Defender

Controller

Mastermind

Corruptor

Dominator

Arachnos

 

 

Pure Damage:

 

Blaster

Scrapper

Stalker

Sentinel

 

 

[Wavicle]

Just now, 5099y_74c05 said:

Taunting isn't a necessary component to fulfill the role.

Either CC or Taunt is.  Just pets doesn't do it.

[Wavicle]

EVERY class has the ability to Absorb Alphas. That is not aggro management.

[Wavicle]

Just now, 5099y_74c05 said:

Negative. Threat can too. Roles and evidently the supporting mechanics were never implement properly as I noted in my first few sentences.

By that measure a Blaster is aggro management because they cause high threat. The discussion is meaningless if you think of it that way.

[Wavicle]

Taunt is the mechanic that allows you to use Threat for aggro management.

[Wavicle]

It's certainly true that SOME MM pets have some aggro management ability.  Bruiser, Lich, a couple others. But MMs as a class do not.

[Wavicle]

2 minutes ago, 5099y_74c05 said:

I see PA uses Taunt in its attacks in addition to a high Threat multiplier. So I don't know off hand if any counterexamples exist.  Beyond Stealths and Taunts I don't think there are many mechanisms that manipulate "Threat" (GI does)

sorry, what's GI?

[CaptTastic]

I would describe Blasters as Pure Damage. They’re literally given nothing else and in that sense the AT is wholly unique. 

[DougGraves]

On 4/11/2021 at 10:47 AM, Troo said:

Hopefully this is what was being asked.. (maybe I've over simplified it)

 

In character creation.  It says choose type of character - ranged damage, support, etc.  Then each category gives you a list of AT's.  Then each AT gives you a list of powersets.

 

Imagine if you said "I want buff/debuff abilities and I want control." Then you might get recommended controllers, dark defenders, dark masterminds, and fortunata widows.

 

• Or you might say "I want a defender that buffs my allies outside of combat defense and resistance" you would get force field, sonic, cold, and thermal.
• Then you might say "I want to be able to heal my allies".  That eliminates force field

 

You could require someone to read all of the powers including the numbers to figure out how much defense FF provides or how much -Res sonic provides.  But it would be much easier if there were a description:

 

Force Field:

• This set provides high defense to all of your allies, but not yourself.  It provides allies with mez protection.   These can be applied before combat.  The set allows you to knockback foes for control. 
• This set does not  have healing, resurrection, recharge or endurance boosts, or debuffing.  It has no way to increase your teams damage.

The description can include what matters to players when choosing powersets besides them - since the theme is in the name.  So for Dark Armor it would say it uses a lot of END.  But electric attacks saying they can return some END for you would be left out if players decide that is a useless ability. 

 

The discussion over the description would help highlight how devs and players view the powers.  Maybe players say the END drain is useful for pvp but not useful for pve.  The set could be flagged as recommended for pvp not pve, or the pve powers could be made better separate from the pvp versions.

 

And if players all say that Force Field having knockback is a negative not a positive, maybe the devs will change it to knockdown.

 

 

Edited April 13, 2021 by DougGraves

[Wavicle]

6 minutes ago, 5099y_74c05 said:

Damage Mitigation Support and CC can be treated as being on the same spectrum, it is helpful when exploiting Controller set synergies or discussing balance.

 

Agreed. Although, generally the reason I put them together is that, unlike tanks, CC and Support powers take TIME to use. Tanks only have one power (besides self heals and such) that takes time away from attacking, Taunt.

[Wavicle]

In general I actually think Support and CC sets are fine. It's only in the upper levels that those sets start to get devalued. But the devs are aware of this and are going to try to fix it. May take a while, but they're on it.

[MTeague]

1 hour ago, CaptTastic said:

I would describe Blasters as Pure Damage. They’re literally given nothing else and in that sense the AT is wholly unique. 

My OCD hair-splitting "well, technically...." tendancies require me to dispute this.

An awful lot of Blasters get more in the toolkit. 

 

Even a Fire/Fire blaster gets Immob's, and Hot Feet for some localized dmg / fear, and doesn't Rain of Fire cause some "run away", too?

Nevermind the Blastroller of Ice/Ice with Slows, Holds, Sleeps, and a Ice Slick.

Energy and all it's glorious "fly the friendly skies!" Knockback.

 

There's soft control and mitigation tools that Blasters get too. Some much more than others, but nobody is 100% pure damage, even if it's clearly thier main focus.

[CaptTastic]

42 minutes ago, MTeague said:

My OCD hair-splitting "well, technically...." tendancies require me to dispute this.

An awful lot of Blasters get more in the toolkit. 

 

Even a Fire/Fire blaster gets Immob's, and Hot Feet for some localized dmg / fear, and doesn't Rain of Fire cause some "run away", too?

Nevermind the Blastroller of Ice/Ice with Slows, Holds, Sleeps, and a Ice Slick.

Energy and all it's glorious "fly the friendly skies!" Knockback.

 

There's soft control and mitigation tools that Blasters get too. Some much more than others, but nobody is 100% pure damage, even if it's clearly thier main focus.

Yeah I definitely get what you mean, but I suppose I just see soft control across every single powerset in the game. It’s sort of a constant in CoH, so hard to really take into account when analysing what makes an AT unique. 
 

My way of thinking is that, for example, tanks are armour set and melee damage set, trollers are a control set and a support set, defenders support and ranged damage, etc. But blasters are ranged damage and melee damage. 
 

It’s all just semantics at the end of the day though, isn’t it?

[Doomrider]

It's one thing to know what a power or powerset is for, it's another to how to utilize it great effect. GW2's classes, their utility skills and traitlines are no different in that respect.
Part of the fun is discovery, becoming familiar with a powerset in a hands-on sense will tell you far more about how to use something, that just knowing what it was intended for. 

I'm not sure a new list will be universally helpful in aiding people with choosing powersets but it certainly couldn't hurt (assuming it's not rife with inaccuracies). 

Perhaps updates to the character creation screens are in order to help guide players to powersets that might interest them. That being said, players have been known to break the conventions of what certain AT's or powersets are capable of and what they were meant for, so definitions for certain skills/powersets many vary wildly depending on who you ask.