Possible ways to help support classes

[Razor Cure]

3 hours ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

I'd argue (and I am arguing) that it's literally against the entire purpose of the AT to improve their ability to solo.

They why did we get the Fender team size damage buff? Not to mention sets like Sonic having most of their powers UNUSABLE solo. Which makes zero sense considering teh damage buff.

 

3 hours ago, Night said:

That's just giving everyone status protection which has been said no

Clarion says HI!

Sure, Clarion is 50+, but at 50, with everyone having all their powers and slots (not too mention many people being tricked out to the gills), being Mezzed is, in nearly all cases, much much less of a problem than being mezzed at level 20 with low hp and unslotted powers. Of course Clarion is for Incarnate stuff, but we can still use it down to level 45. I am not arguing that every AT should get Mez prot, but your argument as to why NO support set should ever get a buff makes no sense.

 

4 hours ago, Steampunkette said:

The suggestion boils down to Incarnates and Inventions.

And the rest on that post. I agree that it can be really frustration to try use debuffs on 50+ teams, where everything goes splat so fast. But even so, I dont find those toons of mine useless. The toggle debuff anchors 'staying' does help a fair bit. Unless you always forget to detoggle it like I do. lol.

 

 

In regard to giving passive powers for taking buffs..I quite like that idea. But not as passives. I see enough useless therms/sonics/colds/emps, who never use their buffs. Should they get a bonus just for taking said powers and never actually using them? Just about all ally buffs have a 2 mins duration, so why not give the caster a small bonus when they use said power, that also lasts a similar time? That encourages them to actually 'support' a team.

[PeregrineFalcon]

10 minutes ago, Razor Cure said:

They why did we get the Fender team size damage buff? Not to mention sets like Sonic having most of their powers UNUSABLE solo. Which makes zero sense considering teh damage buff.

There's a big difference between enabling something and improving something. And this isn't just semantics.

 

The retail developers realized that some defenders can solo and others can't, and that Vigilance was nearly worthless. So they basically killed two birds with one stone. Improved Vigilance and added the ability to solo (barely) in the form of more damage when solo.

 

But there's a big difference between giving an AT the ability to barely solo and adding the ability to solo well on top of all of their heals, buffs and debuffs. You cannot improve the damage output of Defenders or Controllers without destroying the Blaster AT as a viable choice. And you can't improve their defenses without destroying Sentinels.

 

You know, not everything needs to be improved. Not everything is broken. That way lies power creep.

[Haijinx]

On 4/18/2021 at 7:00 PM, Wavicle said:

This thread is for people to discuss possible different ways to improve the Support ATs.

 

Feel free to comment on my idea or suggest your own!

 

 

Make the game harder.   

[Andreah]

3 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

Make the game harder.   

I prefer to add harder content. Or change optional game content so that it's harder; e.g., +1 to +4 difficulty settings; and leave baseline content alone.

[PeregrineFalcon]

2 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

Make the game harder.   

Instead of making the entire game harder, how about: "Make challenging content for the level 50s that want it"? Maybe add it a bit of: "Add in good rewards to be worth the challenge".

 

I honestly believe that this would be the best way to "improve" support classes. Make them necessary again.

[Haijinx]

Just now, PeregrineFalcon said:

Instead of making the entire game harder, how about: "Make challenging content for the level 50s that want it"? Maybe add it a bit of: "Add in good rewards to be worth the challenge".

 

I honestly believe that this would be the best way to "improve" support classes. Make them necessary again.

 

Optional doesn't help support classes 

[Haijinx]

2 minutes ago, Andreah said:

I prefer to add harder content. Or change optional game content so that it's harder; e.g., +1 to +4 difficulty settings; and leave baseline content alone.

 

That's okay.  This was my suggestion though.  

[PeregrineFalcon]

3 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

Optional doesn't help support classes 

So, first of all, difficult stuff has to be optional or players will just quit playing. You try forcing people to play difficult incarnate content and you'll turn Homecoming into a Ghost Town.

 

Secondly, you motivate people to do the optional, difficult, content by adding in cool rewards. This was also listed in my post.

 

Third, if the content is difficult, but people want to do it, they'll recruit support AT's to join the team. This makes support AT's more desirable, thus more common, and more fun to play. I'd call that an improvement, wouldn't you?

[Haijinx]

29 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

So, first of all, difficult stuff has to be optional or players will just quit playing. You try forcing people to play difficult incarnate content and you'll turn Homecoming into a Ghost Town.

 

Secondly, you motivate people to do the optional, difficult, content by adding in cool rewards. This was also listed in my post.

 

Third, if the content is difficult, but people want to do it, they'll recruit support AT's to join the team. This makes support AT's more desirable, thus more common, and more fun to play. I'd call that an improvement, wouldn't you?

 

If you say so.

 

I'll stick to leaving my suggestion as is though.  

[Doomguide2005]

     Some will do harder content because it's harder.  Some will do harder content because the rewards are 'better'.  And being a rather subjective thing a better reward might be merely the increase in difficulty for some.  For others it be inf or merits or a shiny badge with or without granting an accolade as well. 

     Forcing harder content and/or gating desirable rewards behind such content must be done with care or @PeregrineFalconis likely to end up correct, it will drive more away than it satisfies and the game may suffer.   But added optionally it has the potential to keep some from boredom and lead to better retention.

     But that is a separate but related issue from "helping support classes".  I personally don't see any need to help support classes solo or teamed though I can at least grant that solo is worth discussing potential ideas.  Helping support classes any on teams of 3+ members though is entirely unneeded and probably undesirable as any such team can readily handle the vast majority of +4/×8 content already if consisting of IO set builds.  And some can do so on SO builds.

 

[Andreah]

I'm going to add that I play several support characters, and I've never felt useless on teams, even ones steamrolling things like council radios. Other people may shine more, but that's often because I'm there supporting them.

 

Yes, some specific ways of supporting the team are more difficult, which Steampunkette listed out for a dark miasma defender. These require some set up time, or are tied to locations, or specific mobs. I think this identifies the ways in which some, not all, AT/power-set combinations might be disadvantaged in faster killing and faster moving teams.

 

1) How would you make it faster to set up a support character's area effects?

 

2) How would you make debuffs tied to an anchor that will likely die very fast continue to have effect?

 

3) How would you make fixed-location AoE buffs/debuff/effects more flexible for a fast moving team?

 

I'll offer some notional ideas. I'm sure there's better ones.

 

How about, for 1), if there was a power that let you fire off three targeted aoe's all at once, but were then stunned or exhausted, or something, for some period of time to make up for it.

 

For 2), what if the anchor had a chance to instantly shift to the nearest surviving enemy mob within a limiting distance when the current anchor was defeated?

 

For 3) What if some point-specific AoE's could be relocated? Why can't you move that debuffing gizmo once or twice as the fight moves around?

 

This team focused, so the problem I'm addressing is to help support characters with certain specific issues with fast moving, fast killing teams keep up; not a global buff. These might help them solo, but probably only on the margin.

[Ukase]

18 hours ago, Wavicle said:

Defenders and Corruptors in particular, less so Controllers and Masterminds, suffer a little from having both low base damage and low hitpoints while having buffs that take time away from attacking and in many cases buffs that don't help the caster.

Are they bad? No. Could they be better without breaking the game? Yea, I think so.

Okay...I think I get where you're coming from. 
This is my immediate thought about it: 
The SG meets up for what I would deem a "stealthable" mission. We enter, and all but one ignore all the mobs in pursuit of the glowie, or the room with the boss. 
This one sg mate, even though he has a celerity:stealth in sprint, he doesn't have super speed, nor stealth/invis, and didn't think to hit the buff station in the sg base. He simply cannot get through without getting aggro and dying. 

Here's my point: I'm playing the same AT, same powersets. I have no issues at all doing this. Moreover, I can actually go back (and do, and clear those mobs that killed him solo, with ease.) I always feel badly, in a way, for not just sticking with him in the first place, but I keep on hoping he'll figure out how to get through, but he's just slow to move. 

So, whenever I read that someone thinks a given powerset or AT needs improvement, this scenario comes into my mind. 

I'm certainly not going to suggest you're not good at playing the AT/powerset in question. But there are players who are likely better at it than I am, better at it than you are, just as I'm sure there are players that fare worse, with all other factors being the same. If we raise the baseline abilities of an entire group, it may very well be that we remove what challenge there is for those who are playing with greater knowledge, skills and abilities. So, while we may improve the enjoyment for those with lesser KSAs, we remove it for the former. Seems like a zero sum solution. 

So what is the solution? I can't come up with one, because I don't really understand the problem. Truth be told, even if I did, the solution would likely be beyond my knowledge, skills and abilities. 

 

 

 

[arcane]

14 hours ago, Razor Cure said:

Clarion says HI!

Sure, Clarion is 50+, but at 50, with everyone having all their powers and slots (not too mention many people being tricked out to the gills), being Mezzed is, in nearly all cases, much much less of a problem than being mezzed at level 20 with low hp and unslotted powers. Of course Clarion is for Incarnate stuff, but we can still use it down to level 45. I am not arguing that every AT should get Mez prot, but your argument as to why NO support set should ever get a buff makes no sense.

Yes Clarion exists, and IMO you should have to invest in Clarion if you want that level of complete status protection. Investing in Clarion has immense opportunity costs in the form of the other four extremely powerful Destinies. Adding passive protection to a power like Clear Mind wouldn’t have half this cost. If a Defender wants to play a Tanker and ignore a huge part of the game, I vote they should still have to pay a huge opportunity cost and get Clarion. 

[EmperorSteele]

Yeah, piggybacking on what was said earlier, most Support characters don't need help, unless your "baseline" is the relative performance value of fully kitted-out Spines/Fire Brutes doing +4/x8 fire farms. In which case, EVERYONE ELSE needs help, too!

 

Now, if you're just talking about their relative "uselessness" in group content because everything's dead before you can buff an ally or debuff a foe? Probably something to look at, though I'm not sure what can be done there short of buffing level 45+ enemies, an idea which would likely prove unpopular.

[Carnifax]

All toggles should supress rather than drop. That won't "solve" mez (which is fine) but it'll make recovering from it less painful for some sets (like Nature). 

 

As for self-buffs and the like I'd be in the "yes but" camp, where you examine each on a case-by-case basis. Empathy and Forcefield probably need some form of self-buff when you cast certain powers. Not full strenght but a percent of what they're doing normally.

 

One way to make Support more useful in 45+ content would be to stop Incarnate powers working other than when you're in Incarnate content, and maybe one or two endgame TFs like Ms Lib (of course then Support will give out that their Clarion got taken away). 

 

[DZKFire]

I don't think supports need help at all. Even if self buffing shields are possible and cut to +1% unenhanceable defense/+2% resistance, that makes a huge difference to the more serious build makers.

 

Many defender builds have the capability to reach both a res cap and soft cap defenses as of right now.

 

All shield buff support sets get the option to load powers with global enhancements already, from LotG muling to Steadfast Protection depending on the type of shield.

 

 

[Carnifax]

7 minutes ago, DZKFire said:

I don't think supports need help at all

Some sets do, they're just old and showing their age. Empathy and Forcefield for sure. Probably Sonic and *maybe* Rad too. 

 

Doesn't have to be as extreme as the Trick Arrow changes but they do need modernisation IMO.

[arcane]

+1 to FF, Emp, maybe Sonic likely being the ones needing help, and in that order IMO.

Edited April 20, 2021 by arcane

[UltraAlt]

On 4/18/2021 at 7:00 PM, Wavicle said:

This thread is for people to discuss possible different ways to improve the Support ATs.

 

Support classes are extremely powerful when they work in conjunction with each other.

 

Defenders powers already change and scale based on the number of players on a team.

 

I can see your point if the player is running solo.

So I could agree with this caste on-self mechanic when solo as a Controllers/Corruptor only or if scaling/changing like defenders powers do.

 

(I don't consider Dominators or Masterminds to be a support class)

 

[arcane]

I also don’t really agree that teams in which everything dies in 2 seconds really present a support-specific problem. If everything is genuinely falling to the ground that quickly, why would that specifically be a problem for support players? Yes, they are not getting to apply their controls or patches to everything, but you can easily argue that no AT is getting to use the full range of their powers in that scenario. The damage AT’s are getting to execute the beginnings of their AoE chains but not getting to brawl with much after that. I do see how it is annoying for a team to be so successful that you don’t get to really flex your powers, but it’s just not a relevant point to a conversation specifically about support AT’s. Be like everyone else in that situation - focus on your -res, +dam, and nukes, enjoy your xp and loot, and go join a smaller or more difficult team if you’re still not having fun. It’s not a defender/corruptor/controller/mastermind problem, it’s just a CoH endgame problem.

Edited April 20, 2021 by arcane

[Wavicle]

I'm not sure what else there is to say, but I did want to chime in again with WHY I made the suggestion.

 

It's 2 things really, one has been mentioned already.

 

1. Soloability. Yes, this is one of the things.

 

2. On teams the defender is usually the squishiest one there, because of the combination of low hp and, in some cases, buffs that don't effect the caster.

 

 

But I do appreciate the argument that when you Stack at least 2 support they very quickly become incredibly powerful. That is true.

Edited April 20, 2021 by Wavicle

[arcane]

20 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

2. On teams the defender is usually the squishiest one there, because of the combination of low hp and, in some cases, buffs that don't effect the caster.

But you are neglecting the fact that not a single support set has no powers that help the caster, and therefore all support characters have, at the very least, more self buff or enemy debuff potential than blasters or dominators. Dispersion Bubble, Healing Aura, etc. These powers are no slouches!
 

Yes, those classes quickly get more durable *when buffed by the aforementioned support classes*, but hey, if we’re relying on that argument, that must mean we’ve refuted the argument that support classes are useless!

 

...Not that I think any of them are particularly squishy if played tactically.

[Wavicle]

55 minutes ago, arcane said:

...Not that I think any of them are particularly squishy if played tactically.

 

I do agree with this statement.

But, I am not ignoring their defensive powers. It's true that solo the Force Fielder has Dispersion Bubble. But on a team the Blaster has Dispersion Bubble AND the little shields.

Nevertheless, I think I still basically agree with you on that point.

 

 

1 hour ago, arcane said:

I also don’t really agree that teams in which everything dies in 2 seconds really present a support-specific problem.

 

These actually AREN'T the situations I am thinking of. It's the mid-range teams where sometimes fights can take much longer that I'm really thinking about.

 

My suggestion (in the OP) is NOT intended to fix the problem of the endgame being completely unbalanced.

[BrandX]

I don't know.  I like the idea of seeing some of these sets get some personal buffs, but I probably wouldn't do them the exact same way.

 

Cold Domination>Fire Shield: Owner gets 15% Fire/Cold Res

Cold Domination>Glacial Shield: Owner gets 15% Cold Res

Cold Domination>Frostwork: Owner gets 15% Cold/Toxic Res

 

Thermal Radiation>Thermal Shield: Owner gets 15% Fire/Cold Res

Thermal Radiation>Plasma Shield: Owner gets 15% Fire

Thermal Radiation>Thaw: Owner gets 15% Cold/Slow Res

Thermal Radiation>Forge: Owner gets 10% ToHit/Damage

 

Force Field>Deflection Shield: Owner gets 10% Smash/Lethal/Toxic Res

Force Field>Insulation Shield: Owner gets 10% Energy/Negative/Fire/Cold Res

 

Empathy>Clear Mind: Owner gets +Perception and 5 points protection against Stun/Sleep/Hold/Fear/Confuse/Immob

Empathy>Fortitude: Owner gets 5% ToHit/Damage/Def All

 

Kinetics>Increase Density: Owner gets 10% Smash/Energy Res and 5 points protection against Hold/Immob/Stun/Knock/Repel

Kinetics>Speed Boost: Owner gets 15% Recharge/Recovery/Slow Res

 

Sonic Resonance>Sonic Barrier: Owner gets 10% Smash/Lethal/Toxic Res

Sonic Resonance>Sonic Haven: Owner gets 10% Fire/Cold/Energy/Negative Res

Sonic Resonance>Disruption Field: Owner gets 10% Damage

Sonic Resonance>Sonic Repulsion: Owner gets 5 points protection against Knock

Sonic Resonance>Clarity: Owner gets +Perception and 5 points protection against Confuse/Fear/Sleep

Etc etc...and maybe these are are still to much, but, I always liked the idea of a passive buff to the user of the set for grabbing ally only powers.  Can't be enhanced, but makes the power not feel as useless when solo. 🙂 

[Steampunkette]

7 hours ago, Andreah said:

I'm going to add that I play several support characters, and I've never felt useless on teams, even ones steamrolling things like council radios. Other people may shine more, but that's often because I'm there supporting them.

 

Yes, some specific ways of supporting the team are more difficult, which Steampunkette listed out for a dark miasma defender. These require some set up time, or are tied to locations, or specific mobs. I think this identifies the ways in which some, not all, AT/power-set combinations might be disadvantaged in faster killing and faster moving teams.

 

1) How would you make it faster to set up a support character's area effects?

 

2) How would you make debuffs tied to an anchor that will likely die very fast continue to have effect?

 

3) How would you make fixed-location AoE buffs/debuff/effects more flexible for a fast moving team?

 

I'll offer some notional ideas. I'm sure there's better ones.

 

How about, for 1), if there was a power that let you fire off three targeted aoe's all at once, but were then stunned or exhausted, or something, for some period of time to make up for it.

 

For 2), what if the anchor had a chance to instantly shift to the nearest surviving enemy mob within a limiting distance when the current anchor was defeated?

 

For 3) What if some point-specific AoE's could be relocated? Why can't you move that debuffing gizmo once or twice as the fight moves around?

 

This team focused, so the problem I'm addressing is to help support characters with certain specific issues with fast moving, fast killing teams keep up; not a global buff. These might help them solo, but probably only on the margin.

This made me think...

 

What if Tar Patch and other "Ground Target Buff/Debuff" effects were given a sort of Faraday Cage treatment? Strip the Cooldown off of it, but make each cast destroy the last one.

 

That way you can -always- put down a Tar Patch, at a cost, but -only- one at a time?