Procs: how many is too many?

[Marshal_General]

I was trying to work on my build for my earth/earth dominator and noticed that I could put a lot if +rech procs in it. I have several builds where I could put a lot of +end procs in the build.

 

Is there a point for procs such as these where you have too many?

 

I know they just fixed the PT heal proc, but I am not sure of the rules for other non damage procs.

[tidge]

Dominators are somewhat unique because perma-Domination is a game changer for the class. (plenty of discussion on this point is elsewhere)

 

As far as %procs in attacks, I typically go for a 5-piece set bonus and the 6th slot will get a %proc, but only if I consider the chance for the proc to fire to be worth the investment in the slot. If the 5-pieces include a %proc I want to use, that attack will end up with two %procs... and that's pretty much the limit for my attacks... unless...

 

Non-DPS AT characters that I actually want to deal damage may compromise and leverage as many %damage procs as possible, backed up with Accuracy and (in the case of control types) duration/effect of the power, such as Mez. For example: there are a LOT of %damage procs in the Hold sets, so for a Controller primary that gets a single-target Hold very early in the career, slotting the %damage procs in the ST Hold is a nice alternative to relying on P2W powers to defeat enemies.

[Marshal_General]

I pretty understand damage procs, at least until they get changed again.

 

What I am not sure about is the other ones. Like does the +rech proc have an internal cool down where it does you no good to have several in an attack chain.

 

There are several things about Cryptic Math that I am not sure about. For instance, which is better, +damage or -resist? I am sure the answer involves. "That depends."

[Onlyasandwich]

5 minutes ago, Marshal_General said:

+rech proc

There is no internal cooldown of the FFback proc. It will refresh (though not stack) upon a new activation of the proc.

 

It is generally quite useful to have 2-3 (or perhaps more depending on proc chance) incorporated into your rotation. 

[arcane]

There is a “too many” point, sure, but I think it will be intuitive when you reach it. For Dominators, it will be about perma-dom.

For others, it will be about when you just start to see really pitiful bonuses/stats like low recharge or accuracy. For instance, a non-proc monster build is probably getting 80%+ in recharge boosts, and you’re free to cut into that.. but I start to really question it if it dips below 50%. For accuracy, you should at least have 95% chance to hit against +3’s (assuming most if your +4 runs are occurring at 50 with a level shift).

 

My most proctastic builds seem to wind up somewhere around maybe 25 damage procs and a few -res/+rech procs. Any more than that and your build really starts to have nothing else - assuming you’re also loaded up on all the defensive procs.

 

I recommend Vigor Alpha (if no Ageless) or Nerve Alpha (if Ageless) if you really want to go all the way with procs. My DP/SR sentinel has 3 or 4 attacks with 6 procs each, for instance, so you can certainly take it pretty dang far.

Edited April 21, 2021 by arcane

[Carnifax]

11 minutes ago, Marshal_General said:

There are several things about Cryptic Math that I am not sure about. For instance, which is better, +damage or -resist? I am sure the answer involves. "That depends."

It does though. They work in multiplicity together, if you have lots of +dam already then some -resist is very attractive indeed. 

 

-resist applies to you and your team though which makes it very useful on teams (assuming your resist is aoe or everyone is beating up the same thing)

[arcane]

Adding that these are probably my typical approaches: 

 

Non-proc monster attack: 6 slotted set or 5 slots + 1 proc - IE 6 ATO’s or 5 Apocs + 1 Glad Jav.

 

Proc monster attack: 2 IO’s with no recharge enhancement, 4 procs - Winter sets are useful here because they all give an Acc/Dam and Acc/Dam/End option and a useful bonus. Also other IO sets where you can go Acc/Dam, Acc/Dam/End, Proc - like Annihilation or Positron’s Blast, etc.

 

All in proc monster build attack: 6 procs or 1 IO (Accuracy or Acc/Dam/End most likely) and 5 procs if 6 procs aren’t even an option. This option is only ideal to you if you have adequate Accuracy/+ToHit from set bonuses, Tactics, etc.

 

All of my builds will have at least one-two of option 1 (with non proc monsters having many) as that’s your set bonus bread and butter. Most of my builds have at least one of option 2. Only specialized builds that do not need a lot of set bonuses will try option 3, but those builds will have mostly options 2+3 and as little option 1 as possible.

Edited April 21, 2021 by arcane

[Yomo Kimyata]

Seven per power.

[Marshal_General]

2 hours ago, Carnifax said:

It does though. They work in multiplicity together, if you have lots of +dam already then some -resist is very attractive indeed. 

 

-resist applies to you and your team though which makes it very useful on teams (assuming your resist is aoe or everyone is beating up the same thing)

The question is do mobs resist -resist? If so what when does +damage become better? What if a mob has 0 resistance to an attack? Can they go negative or is -20% of 0 still 0?

[Parabola]

It's not so much a case of 'too many procs' as 'too little other slotting'. Some powers and AT's are better set up for heavy proc use than others. If you need to be chasing 6 piece set bonuses to make a build work then the too many procs threshold can be 1. If you have mitigation, end use, recharge and accuracy/to hit covered elsewhere in your build then 6 becomes a possibility. Whether proccing out is worth it or not is always a very individual question, you have to take the wider context of each build into account.

 

One tip: I always do the lv50 damage io test on any power with multiple procs in it. In mids replace one of the procs with a lv50+5 pure damage io and look at the expected damage compared to what it was before. If the proc wins out then great but if not I know I've neglected the basic damage enhancement values (or the power was unsuitable for proccing out in the first place).

Edited April 21, 2021 by parabola

[Carnifax]

29 minutes ago, Marshal_General said:

The question is do mobs resist -resist? If so what when does +damage become better? What if a mob has 0 resistance to an attack? Can they go negative or is -20% of 0 still 0?

Resistance resists resistance debuffs.

 

So if I hit someone with a 20% debuff and they have 50 percent smashing resist they'll end up at 40%

 

So my 100 points of damage goes from doing 50 points to 60 (a 20% increase on what I would have done)

 

If I hit them with another 20% from a different power it'll go to 30 (the original figure is always used to resist the debuff)

 

And they can totally go below 0. 

Edited April 21, 2021 by Carnifax

[Uruare]

It's too many procs when you sacrificed too many things to get procs and now you aren't entirely happy with the baseline functionality.

[Ukase]

On 4/21/2021 at 12:58 PM, Marshal_General said:

The question is do mobs resist -resist? If so what when does +damage become better? What if a mob has 0 resistance to an attack? Can they go negative or is -20% of 0 still 0?

This is a good question - but the rub is, the answer is likely different with each npc faction boss you face. Consider fighting Anti-Matter as an AV. The answer is different if you're facing Reichsman as an AV. 

And I can't say with certainty, as I've not used a power analyzer on most npcs, as I wouldn't remember the results even if I did. I can state that it stands to reason if my defense can be debuffed to less than zero (-xx.xx) then so can any mob we face. With an AV or EB, of course, more debuffs would be required, but it would depend on the strength/number of debuffs and their resistance to the same. 

Maybe one of these days, they'll let the power analyzer be used in iTrials so we can take a nice peak at how certain debuffs impact certain NPC bosses. 

[Mezmera]

On 4/21/2021 at 5:03 AM, Marshal_General said:

I was trying to work on my build for my earth/earth dominator and noticed that I could put a lot if +rech procs in it. I have several builds where I could put a lot of +end procs in the build.

 

Is there a point for procs such as these where you have too many?

 

I know they just fixed the PT heal proc, but I am not sure of the rules for other non damage procs.

 

For doms I target the most beneficial whole sets and whatever procs come with it then great, usually purple sets are great.  For the +recharge proc I do not like to slot those in any way, I'd rather have full control of my recharge than a gimmick proc boost to rely on.  Doms for sure are a hard one to squeeze procs into since every slot seems that much more in demand.  I like to slot 2 hold procs into my aoe hold since they're pretty much surefire and snipes and other longer recharging powers to take advantage of the almost certain possible added damage.

[KauaiJim]

I think it depends on the type of build you want to put together.  I'm not huge on proc monster builds but they do work.  However, you tend to have to sacrifice if you want to go proc heavy (set bonuses for example).  This is perhaps not exactly what you are asking.  I think you maybe were asking more for general advice on how many and where for certain procs (like +end).  You don't need to go nuts, but it really depends on you and what you are trying to do and what you like.

 

As an example, let's say you only slot up an attack with 5 slots instead of six (common when you are conserving slots in a build for other stuff and the sixth set bonus isn't a must).  So, you slot it with Hecatomb or a Winter purple or some such...  Sometimes I keep the proc part of the set, sometimes I drop it for the other stats from or I'll have used the proc piece of the set elsewhere on another ability.  Sometimes I eke out a bit more end from +5'ing endurance i/o's and use those instead of the performance shifter proc.  Sometimes I have multiple performance shifter procs. 

 

And as mentioned the recharge proc isn't really an ideal way to achieve recharge.  For things like end and recharge you should be building that in more reliable ways.  In fact, my view on procs in general is they are ways to get "More Cowbell!" more than something to depend upon when I make a build (for the most part).  There are of course exceptions and it's all about personal likes and dislikes.  I just got into Savage Melee on tankers of all things and I have Savage Leap full of procs.  Personal choice.  

 

Honestly, it all seems to work.  It's really about your specific goals (IMO).  Now if you are talking about looking close at the numbers and fine tuning for maximum I think it really depends on the entire build.  It's kind of hard to give an answer to a question like this in general or if you are really getting down into the nitty gritty of min/maxing.  There are so many REALLY AWESOME folks here (on HC) at putting together builds (much better than me).  If you really want to get the most bang for buck from procs it wouldn't hurt to post a build and ask advise on that specific build for what you are trying to achieve.  If you are just going for general advice then lots of good stuff already in this thread.

 

AND, I'm sure all of the above is my opinion, which could be wrong (but I have already been wrong once this year so it's not likely!)  😉

Edited April 26, 2021 by KauaiJim

[Dahkness]

Never enough procs 

[Sir Myshkin]

Want to point out a specific thing being mentioned in this thread: The Force Feedback +Recharge proc does actually have a natural limitation, albeit not an actual "hard coded" limitation. There are only a handful of abilities in the game that can be chained together with a high probability that would generate even just three stacks of the proc fast enough. The tightest proc-inclusive attack chain I personally managed was two, with an occasionally fleeting third stack.

 

To be clear, with the current proc algorithm set in the game the proc cannot be infinitely stacked, there is a natural limitation in place just by the mathematical order of things. Yes those few circumstances that exist to get three stacks can make some very fun and interesting builds, but they're also very difficult and temperamental builds to play and are why so few actually try them out.

 

That aside, one can never have enough procs! So sayeth the Mad King.

Edited April 27, 2021 by Sir Myshkin

[arcane]

The most consistent Force Feedback usage I have comes with my Ill/Storm/Psy controller chaining Tornado, Lightning Storm, Psionic Tornado, and Gale. In an AoE setting (not vs. an AV), she feels like she can more or less have that buff all the time.

[Doomguide2005]

On 4/21/2021 at 1:58 PM, Marshal_General said:

The question is do mobs resist -resist? If so what when does +damage become better? What if a mob has 0 resistance to an attack? Can they go negative or is -20% of 0 still 0?

     To be more specific the -resist floor is capped for all ATs at -300%.   So the best case is to hit the damage cap (varies by AT) and floor their resistance at -300%.  Not likely to happen unless you design the team to do just that (like a Kin and a bunch of Sonic/Sonic characters).  Not difficult per se but in a random PuG not too likely either.

 

     And on the damage side procs don't count against the AT's damage cap either so hit the damage cap, add proc damage then boost it with resistance debuffs up to -300%.

 

      Reminds me of one of the last projects my friends and I started (and never completed).  A bunch of Fire/Sonic controllers teamed.  A whole mess of crazed fire imps running amok with several Disruption Fields etc..   All we'd have needed was the Kin