I don't understand Sentinel, please help

[DarknessEternal]

I can't figure out what their purpose is.  You're going to end up in melee range anyway, that's just the nature of this game.  Why do they have such bad damage and defenses?

[Apparition]

42 minutes ago, DarknessEternal said:

I can't figure out what their purpose is.

 

 

If you ever find out, let us know.

[DreadShinobi]

Theyre for concept characters, and as we all know building for concept means sacrificing effectiveness and purpose. ^^

[oldskool]

8 hours ago, DarknessEternal said:

Why do they have such bad damage and defenses?

 

This is more the crux of your original statement and the answer is probably the same.  Though I think that defense really isn't an issue with Sentinels.  In practice, Sentinels are actually quite durable.  Furthermore, they have improvements to their secondary power sets that melee doesn't get.  These changes can be really good in actual play.  Sure, not all of the secondary sets are great, but several of them are considered superior versions of the original (e.g., Invulnerability, Super Reflexes, Regeneration).  

What is the purpose?  Why is the damage low?  Design flaws is the short answer.  The dev team has already noted the lacking performance of Sentinels and mentioned that the AT will change at some point.  The purpose was to make a damage-oriented AT like a Scrapper but one that uses ranged attacks instead.  The issues with this design are documented in multiple places across this subforum, the suggestions forum, and other areas where this topic turns into a flame-war. 

Another aspect of threads like this devolves into Sentinel vs Blaster.  This is an innately flawed comparison and will ultimately come down to individual preference.  This horse has been beaten to the point of being a grease stain on a cement floor.  Let's not rehash this again if we can help it.  

 

Edited April 22, 2021 by oldskool

[Bastille Boy]

Archetypes don't have purposes.

 

I am enjoying my newly-50 Fire/Energy sentinel because it gives me the option of attacking at range while being mez-proof without relying on Rune or Clarion. The changes to the Flight power pool will make hover-blasting a viable strategy more often (due to the new ability to resist -Fly in combat).

[DarknessEternal]

38 minutes ago, Bastille Boy said:

 The changes to the Flight power pool will make hover-blasting a viable strategy more often (due to the new ability to resist -Fly in combat).

Sentinels don't get Hover for free though, so remaining at range can't be their purpose.

 

As soon as you shoot something, you're in melee seconds later.

 

If they came with Hover or the first power in every secondary was an AoE root, it would help define them, but Sentinels are still a melee AT without such things.

Edited April 22, 2021 by DarknessEternal

[oldskool]

55 minutes ago, DarknessEternal said:

Sentinels don't get Hover for free though, so remaining at range can't be their purpose.

 

As soon as you shoot something, you're in melee seconds later.

 

If they came with Hover or the first power in every secondary was an AoE root, it would help define them, but Sentinels are still a melee AT without such things.

 

This seems like a really narrow-minded way to look at the Sentinel and all other ATs in the game.  Khelds in Nova are the only characters with innate hover to enable pew-pew at range without leveraging other abilities.  By this logic all other ATs in the game are melee because enemies will try to rush into range.  Even Controllers would be melee because they do not innately root on attack and require a power selection for such control as well as hover. 

You may be looking for deeper roles/design than CoH is going to provide and that won't exist in the Sentinel regardless of what the devs do. 

Edited April 22, 2021 by oldskool
Didn't wanna leave out Warshades with Nova.

[arcane]

12 hours ago, DarknessEternal said:

You're going to end up in melee range anyway, that's just the nature of this game.

That is true to an extent for the fraction of players who either (1) play so casually that they consider tactics to be a waste of time or (2) never ever vary their build strategies from SS/SJ/Fighting/Leadership and maximal defense bonuses/etc. such that all characters are tankers to some degree or (3) both. 
 

It is certainly NOT the nature of the entire game, and entering melee range is your choice and your’s alone. Even if you shoot a mob and it gets right in your face, it was your conscious decision to not back away or kite out of melee range.

Edited April 22, 2021 by arcane

[Sovera]

13 hours ago, DarknessEternal said:

I can't figure out what their purpose is.  You're going to end up in melee range anyway, that's just the nature of this game.  Why do they have such bad damage and defenses?

 

You're late by a couple years, but this has been argued to death in the past.

 

- Yes, most Sentinel players have moved to Blasters since IOs nullify the defense advantage Sentinels have. But Sentinels have immunity to CC since level 6-8 which no other ranged AT gets to enjoy until level 50 and taking Clarion.

- No, Sentinel defenses are not bad, wtf? Are you talking about just slotting your secondary and you're softcapped to defense or hardcapped to resistance? No, of course not, but neither are Scrapeprs or Brutes? Da heck. Only Super Reflexes or Tankers get that. Sentinels can reach good numbers even without the help of their secondary and achieve earlier than Blasters. A Blaster's defenses are a carefully build castle of cards that crumbles the moment they start exemplaring.

- Sentinel damage is bad in spreadsheet terms. Comparing Sentinel damage to Blaster damage in practice has people ignoring the fact a Sentinel will use their nuke every spawn where a Blaster will use theirs every two spawns. While the Blaster nuke will do more damage it's mostly overkill. Dead things are dead, they can't make them deader than dead. Spreadsheets also ignore that people are throwing their Judgements and even without those people are annihilating packs of mobs under 10 seconds. A Blaster's damage advantage is there if we are doing one minute long fights, but most fights are over in seconds. We could make a case for AVs, but, again, that's when people will throw 3-5 Lore pets at the AV and it dies in seconds too. Does a Blaster do more damage than a Sentinel? Yes. Does it matter? Not in practice. Does it bother players enough to drop Sentinels and play Blasters? Yes.

- Is there a case to be made to roll a Scrapper instead of a Sentinel then? Better damage, be in melee anyway, same immunity to CC? Yes. Do it. But if wanting to play a ranged character for fun instead of min maxing then Sentinels are solid, sturdier than other ranged characters, and avoid the CC trap everything but meleers needs to contend with. It's just not the min maxed option.

 

[Crysis]

I may get shot down for saying this but two bourbons into a stormy Sat night why not?

 

Sentinels are the AT for players who whine about the durability of Blasters.  They fix that aspect very well and still provide ranged attacks.  Damage is lower than a Blaster but survivability is so high you have plenty of time to take down your opponents without fear of death.

 

Sents are Blasters with training wheels.  As of right now that is the sole purpose of the AT.

 

If the Devs ever fix the damage/aggro issues with Sents then, and only then, do Sents become ranged Scrappers.

[Riverdusk]

IMO, it's an ideal AT for new players.  You get the classic blasting that a lot of new players look for when they start and you are much more sturdy out of the box than a blaster.

 

 

[tjknight]

In the past it wasn't really possible to play a classic durable comicbook style ranged character. Iron Man, the Human Torch, and Nova dont crumble like paper after a few bullet hits. Now it is. That's basically what sentinels are. 

 

The issue for me is that people continue to compare sentinels to blasters. They are not blasters and shouldn't do blaster level damage. At least that's where I stand on the issue.

 

They are much closer to epic archetypes, in that they are a hybrid AT. It's more fair to compare them to Kheldians or Arachnos Soldiers. Personally, I think their damage and buffing/debuffing values should match what Arachnos bring to the table. 

 

So basically Srntinels are damage/buff/debuff hybrids. My criticism is that the current design doesn't lean into that as hard as it should. 

 

Edited April 25, 2021 by tjknight

[DarknessEternal]

16 hours ago, tjknight said:

They are much closer to epic archetypes, in that they are a hybrid AT. It's more fair to compare them to Kheldians or Arachnos Soldiers. Personally, I think their damage and buffing/debuffing values should match what Arachnos bring to the table. 

 

So basically Srntinels are damage/buff/debuff hybrids. My criticism is that the current design doesn't lean into that as hard as it should. 

 

If Sentinels had the kind of buff/debuff action VEATS have, I wouldn't have made this thread.  VEATS are great ATs.  They make a better comparison too.   Sentinels have less dps, less defenses, and less buff/debuffing than VEATS.

Edited April 25, 2021 by DarknessEternal

[DrInfernus]

On 4/22/2021 at 6:26 AM, DarknessEternal said:

I can't figure out what their purpose is.  You're going to end up in melee range anyway, that's just the nature of this game.  Why do they have such bad damage and defenses?

If your playstyle is to always end up in melee range anyway, then Sentinels are probably just not for you regardless. Nothing wrong with that either. 
 

I personally love the self-sufficiency and utility of Sentinels. That, for me, is their ‘purpose’. They do enough damage to contribute and don’t need looking after by anyone. 
 

That said, I do think they could do with a little extra, but sure that’ll come. 

[oldskool]

13 hours ago, DarknessEternal said:

If Sentinels had the kind of buff/debuff action VEATS have, I wouldn't have made this thread.  VEATS are great ATs.  They make a better comparison too.   Sentinels have less dps, less defenses, and less buff/debuffing than VEATS.

 

Edit note: I opted to reframe my thoughts. 

Would you not question the existence of the Sentinel if it were similar in some fashion to the VEAT?  If so, then what is the point of the VEAT?  What is the point of the Sentinel?  These also feel like rhetorical questions given how homogeneous ATs can get within the IO system and the degree of overlap that exists in powersets.

VEATs are great ATs in my opinion too.  However, the VEAT is also very different.  The VEAT can be a number of things depending on what it is you're looking to do.  It isn't all that fair to compare the VEAT to the Sentinel as the Nightwidow/Fortunata/Bane/Crab experience is vastly different.  The similarities that exists are the potential to do damage at range and have personal protections.  Beyond that, the ATs are like comparing apples and tofu.  

Whether or not a VEAT brings more to a group is a matter of perspective.  Certainly, they bring the capacity to provide team wide buffs due to their lower endurance cost Leadership options which also stack with the power pool version.  However, what debuff effects is the Nightwidow providing?  In some ways the use the term "debuff" seems to be looking solely at Venom Grenade.  Venom Grenade is a very potent power, but it is just one effect out of many others.  This pushes the Soldier side more towards a force multiplier but that isn't the only thing Soldiers (both Huntsman/Crab variants; even some Banes) bring to the table.  

Sentinels having less dps is also really ignoring how builds matter and what can be done with the AT.  If you only look at the Sentinel through the lens of using full sets and only ranged attacks, then sure.  However, the whole DPS argument is flimsy at best when using such generalized statements.  Sentinels can be made to do enough damage, even solely at range, to overcome AV regeneration.  That's a minimum of 150 dps.  Is it the same level of other ATs capable of 400+ dps?  Of course not, but it is still enough damage to participate, meaningfully, in all content of the game.  The Sentinel may struggle for those trying to speed run specific objectives, but those are also self-imposed limitations.  

Back to Venom Grenade for a second.  VG is a very big reason as to why the Huntsman is even a thing.  The first two powers in the kit aren't that great without having negative resistance.  The Crab's damage is also heavily linked to using its pets and even its melee attacks have better DPS than the ranged counterparts.  So saying that all Soldiers are by default doing more dps than all Sentinels is factually inaccurate and also rather absurd.  

Nightwidows are predominately melee and they are exceptional at it.  An expensive Nightwidow is a force to be reckoned with.  These can do more damage than several other options within the ATs.  So it isn't really fair to suggest that Sentinels should be compared to these.  Not much actually compares with a well built NW.  

Fortunatas can play a similar role to a Psychic Blast/Super Reflexes Sentinel.  I get the appeal to make the comparison.  I did this during my write up of the Psychic Blast set in the sticky of this subforum.  Sentinels can be designed using this combination to perform FAR better than you may think.  However, the fundamental designs are also very different.  Fortunatas can also dabble in melee while taking advantage of both Follow-up *and* Aim.  A hybrid Fortunata plays a bit more like a Frankstein's Monster of a Dominator than it does in any sensible comparison of the Sentinel.  

VEATs are, by their very nature, capable of being jacks-of-all-trades.  Sentinels aren't.  Furthermore, the VEATs (and HEATs) have increased resistance caps which further enables their ability to play a number of roles.  The Sentinel is just a damage AT with a poorly implemented mechanic.  

TL;DR:  The Sentinel isn't that complicated.  The Sentinel is a damage-oriented AT with some fundamental design flaws.  Comparing it in its currently known flawed state to other ATs with very different roles is not a great method of argument.  

The purpose, which was the original question, can be answered rather simply.  The purpose is to have fun and this is universal.  The objective of the AT is to do damage.  A perspective that criticizes this effectiveness is valid, but searching for some hidden meaning here is a path to disappointment. 

Edited April 26, 2021 by oldskool
words and stuff

[rookery.]

*hugs my NRG/NRG Sentinel, "It's ok, I love you. You rock! Later after we fly in, explode the hell out of everything, take whatever is leftover of the alpha strike and then Ion blast the rest, we'll go get milk shakes."

[Bill Z Bubba]

On 4/22/2021 at 12:26 AM, DarknessEternal said:

I can't figure out what their purpose is.

 

To look cool blasting away in complete safety.

[CFIndustries]

Sentinels are the blaster I always wanted when I have zero plans to use more than SOs and non-set IOs.

 

Never could really feel the blaster groove (or constant dying), and only ever made one I liked enough to keep, and that took having a friend make me a custom IO set-based build.

 

I enjoy Sentinels more day-to-day; really doesn't need to get much farther than that.

Edited April 26, 2021 by CFIndustries

[Grindingsucks]

On 4/22/2021 at 12:26 AM, DarknessEternal said:

I can't figure out what their purpose is.  You're going to end up in melee range anyway, that's just the nature of this game.  Why do they have such bad damage and defenses?

 

They don't.  All the other combat oriented AT's have damage and defense that are very overpowered when compared to the threat level of enemies that you face in the game.  This makes the reasonably balanced Sentinel seem "bad", by comparison.

 

Having said that, I would like their range to be extended slightly (perhaps to 70 or 80 ft- 60' just "feels" wrong for a purely ranged AT, IMO) and their special At mechanic is, well... just not very fun/interesting.  Those last two things are opinions on personal enjoyment/QOL experience, rather than balance, though. 

Edited April 26, 2021 by Grindingsucks

[Crysis]

16 hours ago, Grindingsucks said:

 

They don't.  All the other combat oriented AT's have damage and defense that are very overpowered when compared to the threat level of enemies that you face in the game.  This makes the reasonably balanced Sentinel seem "bad", by comparison.

 

Having said that, I would like their range to be extended slightly (perhaps to 70 or 80 ft- 60' just "feels" wrong for a purely ranged AT, IMO) and their special At mechanic is, well... just not very fun/interesting.  Those last two things are opinions on personal enjoyment/QOL experience, rather than balance, though. 

 

You have a point here.  Had Sentinels been introduced before Blaster sustains, Global Defense Nerf and during the early days of IO set bonuses, it’s quite possible they would have been one of the most popular AT’s at the time.  But I honestly don’t get most of the comparisons to Homecoming blasters as those are very durable, extremely powerful and other than mezz protection really are some of the highest sustained DPS dealers in the game....mainly because they can deliver most of it at relatively safe range.  I’d say Brutes and Scrappers are the ideal “entry level” AT to play as even on SO’s/non-set IO’s they pretty much have a simple mechanic of inherent durability and extreme damage with almost zero tactical management necessary outside of clicking.  Wade in and start bashing....that’s all there is to those AT’s.

 

Sentinels really need adjustments to be viable beyond concept.  Outside of /Regen for Sents.  Ironically, Sentinels are the ONLY Regeneration set that totally seems to make sense anymore.

[Grindingsucks]

Well, as I've said before, at his point, the only practical thing to do- given the size of the dev team and the time constraints involved- is to buff all the lagging combat ATs up to (relative) parity with one another, then add another difficulty level to notoriety settings and  put in new high-level content.

 

Nerfing everything down to be in line with the more sensible Sentinel performance levels would be a huge, time intensive undertaking and make the bulk of the game community howl with outrage. 

[Project129]

On 4/21/2021 at 11:26 PM, DarknessEternal said:

Why do they have such bad damage and defenses?

 

I don't know if you're just here to troll or not...

My Dual Pistols/Ninutsu has roughly 40% Melee/Range/AoE defenses, resistances 20-40%, a self-heal, 111% recharge speed, a passive 40% damage buff, additional damage through ammunition (which has alternate effects) and some kind of bonus through opportunity (more survival or more damage, take your pick on the Opportunity type). I have never had any real issue for this, so...Yeah. You're more than likely not playing them smart as they can survive, they can do well, and they can do damage if you use them correctly.

[oldskool]

20 hours ago, Grindingsucks said:

and make the bulk of the game community howl with outrage. 

 

Hooooooooooooowl 

Blaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh

Raaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaawrgh

 

Suddenly everyone in the community is using Sonic Blast. 😄

[Grindingsucks]

@oldskool Sorta like that, yeah. 😛

[Solarstar]

The purpose of Sentinels, for me, is the play style.

First some background. <old man yells at clouds> My first 50 back in the day was an Energy/Energy/Force blaster. I got there in the days of SOs. I mostly solo'd with the occasional help from a friend who ran a Dark/Regen scrapper. I got started on my blaster after they had nerfed range as a decent defense besides running away. All mobs' melee and ranged attacks were effectively identical damage wise. I solo'd almost the entirety of the AV arc, minus Infernal (?) with his insane regen and room of adds and one other which was an accidental team completion. By the time I hit 50 I had all but the last xp debt badge. I did all the things I was supposed to do. I kited*, I loved my snipe, I bailed when appropriate, and I ate inspirations like a starving man. I loved blasting, but I hated every minute of the fragility. Unfortunately, it was the ranged primary AT at the time. (With the same amount of effort and slotting, my Dark/Dark/Dark Def was a virtual god.)

Once I hit 50 and unlocked the HEATs, I rolled a PB and never looked back. I had squid when it was safe to blast, lobster when it wasn't safe to exist, and human form for everything else. Unfortunately, PBs needed a group to shine. Even with heavy SO slotting, human form had damage worse than defenders and defenses worse than a scrapper. (Sound familiar?) But I was willing to trade the poor damage for some defenses. If I can be forgiven the pun, I actually had a blast. Mild ranged + mild defense was my jam. Then later PBs got some major upgrades and much later IO sets were a thing to make them even better.

Fast forward to Homecoming. Sentinels. Everything I liked about PB with none of the micromanaging.

Ya see, in the last 20 years of gaming, TTRPGs included, I've found that I like characters that work out of the box. No special gear beyond the basics. I don't want to spend a stupid amount of gold or influence or whatever to be awesome. And I certainly don't want to grind to get there. (This especially applies to D&D where you can't rely on your GM to deliver the goods you need.) Blasters don't really work out of the box. Oh, they're okay. Stressfully dancing on a razors edge is always there. But you need to spend inf to get them going. And you need to grind that inf out.

Do I want sentinels to be better? Yes, Much like I loved the PB changes, I'd like to see something similar for sents, esp since they don't have the flexibility that HEATs have. But until then I'm happy with the sentinel play style. Sentinels aren't blasters. They're not comparable beyond being ranged primary attackers. (See also corrupters and their blast/defemse sets.)

For me, the purpose of sentinels is the play style.



* (Not so) fun fact, to this day I absolutely despise kiting - all because of the fragility of blasters. I don't find it fun at all.


Unrelated side note. I wonder if the disparity is also due to IOs. I mean, original blaster numbers were designed to be decent without set IOs. Set IOs make them way better. Arguably set IOs break the game. Because of that, blasters have their cake and eat yours too. Later power sets and Sentinels were designed with IOs in mind. Almost like set IOs were expected. They seem to play like it.

Edited April 28, 2021 by Solarstar
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