The pains of being Melee

[TheZag]

Let the people use their powers.  With how this is generally the best and most welcoming community of any game i have ever played,  its near the bottom when it comes to power shaming.

 

I see taskforces forming all the time - all blaster, all controller, all melee.  You can make your own team - no knockback, no imobilize.

 

Join a special rules team when you want special rules.  But if you join a random team with random players,  its going to be random.

[arcane]

The fact that we’re having a thread with this title so soon after a thread in which a member compared supposedly marginalized support classes with the struggles of women... it’s just irony so rich and thick you want to drizzle it over pancakes.

 

Y’all need to make up your damn minds.

[Leo_G]

5 hours ago, archgemini24 said:

 

As far as the idea of beefier minions that have more HP in exchange for counting as more than one mob for the sake of adding some single-target emphasis or adding more value or to staying around to clean-up after the initial AoE wave, why not have the option to expand the concept to lieutenants and bosses, as well, so long as the defeated enemy is worth the same as the original mobs it replaced (or at least in the same ballpark)? More options to customize the playing experience are usually a good thing, but if the return doesn't stack up, the options may never be used. If I am dealing with a Lieutenant with the HP of 3 Lieutenants, and it effectively consumed 2 other enemies in the group, I am already losing the extra drop chances by not blitzing lesser enemies, but no need to stiff me on XP and INF, too.

 

To clarify the idea: take a standard spawn of 16 mobs and a Blaster used an AoE with a 16 target cap. Every mob in range of the attack would take full damage.

 

Now take the same group but upgrade 4 of the minions to "minion+" that have Lt level HP and the unique "body guard" passive. There are still 16 enemies just some mechanically count as more than 1 target (each counts as 3 targets). That Blaster with it's 16 target cap AoE will, instead, hit all 4 of the minion+ mobs which uses up a total of 12 of the 16 target cap of the AoE, and only 4 additional targets (so 8 of the 16 targets take full damage). Those upgraded minions have effectively guarded their allies from the blaster.

 

Overall, it's just an idea. I don't think it'd be enough by itself to challenge incarnate teams but it might be going in the right direction since AoE is such a strong and easily exploitable tactic and very little exists to counter it.

Edited May 12, 2021 by Leo_G

[Snarky]

I never have this problem.  I run a Brute as a main.  (usually, I have been through bouts of Tanking and Blasting)  

 

My current Dark/Dark Brute does exactly what all my Brutes do.  Look for the biggest boss and start hitting it.  If something gets in my way while I am heading to the boss I kill it.  Then I keep going to the boss.  if there are a TON of enemies between me and the boss I ignore them.  And go hit the boss.  As you can see, there is no problem for me with people being scared, or running, or w/e.  I am single minded.  

 

Slight caveat, been running a lot of high end content (Magisterium trials, etc) and lately some of those bosses have started to jitterbug around the map like they got ants in their pants.  But this is a problem for the whole League wailing on the AV, not just me.  And my current Brute has fly on all the time.  So I just track down the dancing AV clown.  And hit it.  Single minded.

[Myrmidon]

7 hours ago, arcane said:

The fact that we’re having a thread with this title so soon after a thread in which a member compared supposedly marginalized support classes with the struggles of women... it’s just irony so rich and thick you want to drizzle it over pancakes.

 

Y’all need to make up your damn minds.

And now I want pancakes...

[Heraclea]

I find that I mind absolutely none of these things, no matter which character I brought and no matter which playstyle they work best in. 

 

If I am on a melee, I make it a point not to mind the earth controller who obscures the whole screen with giant rocks.  I reckon they know how their powers work and how to use them.  Masterminds with annoying pets?  Glad to know there's some ally out there whose hit points are even more disposable than mine.  And that's the character you want on your team on the ship raid.  I figure the energy blaster also knows exactly what she can handle.  Level 50 clearing all of the minions with a judgment nuke?  Shows me where the bosses are.  (And if I am tanking I tend not to rush ahead to another spawn while leaving bosses in the backfield.)  If I am on one of my melees odds are I'll be the last one standing even if the rest of the team is overpulling or overcautious.  

 

Long as I'm getting XP, inf, and merits or whatever else I came for, I won't mind.   If some other character is so awesome that I am left with little to do, that gives me time to ponder names and concepts as I get ready to roll one for myself. 

[UltraAlt]

On 5/10/2021 at 6:53 PM, hakurr said:

i know it seems wrong to just stand there but i have found that in the groups i have played with that allow the the tank to group things up and melee begin there attacks then controllers lock the group down and or ranged attacks begin things seem to go a lot better and a lot less chance of deaths. i know that there are ambushes that jump in but that is when you tank should grab there agro and leave the rest of the melee to deal with the group that is locked down or being dealt with . 

 

There is more than one way to play.

Sure. A good tank can herd and gather a group-up tightly so everyone else can pounce on them.

Makes the tank feel like they are the most important player on the team, too.

 

However, that is not the only way to play, and it can become very boring to always use the same method of game play. (especially when it is tank-chasing and the tank "cores"/defeats-the-boss-and-maybe-another-enemy-or-two and runs off to the next group)

Are the other methods riskier? Sure sometimes and depending.

Walls have more Resistance than a tank, and a good controller can lock down group and dodge behind a wall before getting to much of the alpha. (Blasters can pull with a snipe too and pretty much avoid all the agro. Tank can taunt them as they come around the corner)

They  may be spread out a bit, but most tank damage auras can cover enough area and a tank can use taunt to catch those on the fringes.

 

When things start getting out-of-hand (random people running off helter-skelter, multiple groups getting agro'ed, etc.), sometime I'll yell out "who's the point man?". These days most people don't know what I'm talking about. I might as well be yelling "Watch the LoS!" when someone is pulling with a snipe.

 

On the other hand, I've been on teams where people were saying "we need a tank" and I've said "Our Storm defender will be tanking this evening." and quite a good job of tanking they consistently did.

 

On 5/10/2021 at 6:53 PM, hakurr said:

Everyone in COH now a days seems to be in a huge rush to get through everything i find my self at times wanting to rush through content as well  i wonder how many people playing today know the story behind the missions that they are running and how many just click to get to the next mission.

 

If you are a leader of a team, isn't it a little impolite to make everyone else wait while you are reading through all the mission stuff?

 

 

 

 

Edited May 12, 2021 by UltraAlt

[Hew]

2 minutes ago, UltraAlt said:

If you are a leader of a team, isn't it a little impolite to make everyone else wait while you are reading through all the mission stuff?

Announce ahead of time that is what will  happen.

 

Whenever I run uncommon content (6's arc, the now not so uncommon SSAs) that people have not seen before, I ask who wants to read before starting and run with that.

 

Not all content can be run solo, esp if its got EBs in it, so its fairly reasonable to at least broach the question before starting, or at least announcing in lfg.

[Apparition]

12 minutes ago, UltraAlt said:

If you are a leader of a team, isn't it a little impolite to make everyone else wait while you are reading through all the mission stuff?

 

 

Yep, which is one of the two reasons why I don't team for missions.  The other is that only the mission holder gets reward merits.

 

[UltraAlt]

38 minutes ago, Apparition said:

Yep, which is one of the two reasons why I don't team for missions.  The other is that only the mission holder gets reward merits.

 

I'm pretty sure that I have received merits for some mission arcs.

I don't remember which ones or how many of the missions in the arc that I was involved with.

I'm also pretty sure that there were situations where the arc completed and the leader did get merits and I didn't.

But as usual, I might have just had a City of Heroes dream and thought it actually happened. (I like City of Heroes dreams much better than Dynasty Warrior dreams/nightmares.)

[archgemini24]

23 hours ago, Leo_G said:

 

To clarify the idea: take a standard spawn of 16 mobs and a Blaster used an AoE with a 16 target cap. Every mob in range of the attack would take full damage.

 

Now take the same group but upgrade 4 of the minions to "minion+" that have Lt level HP and the unique "body guard" passive. There are still 16 enemies just some mechanically count as more than 1 target (each counts as 3 targets). That Blaster with it's 16 target cap AoE will, instead, hit all 4 of the minion+ mobs which uses up a total of 12 of the 16 target cap of the AoE, and only 4 additional targets (so 8 of the 16 targets take full damage). Those upgraded minions have effectively guarded their allies from the blaster.

 

Overall, it's just an idea. I don't think it'd be enough by itself to challenge incarnate teams but it might be going in the right direction since AoE is such a strong and easily exploitable tactic and very little exists to counter it.

 

Don't get me wrong. I liked the idea before the clarification, and like it as much if not more with the clarification, but I still think working it in with Lieutenants and Bosses (the idea of one Boss per group always being a Boss+ seems really appealing to me, especially if it is a named boss of a mission) adds value to single-target characters, especially if the passive also provided a morale boost of some sort to the whole spawn like extra Defense, Resistance, and/or Regeneration. Even better, could they be designed so that if they are controlled, the "bodyguard" passive (and morale boost) drops to help add value to control-focused characters? If those enemies get dispatched, even if it is just one or two, it would effectively "turn the AoEs back on" for the team. I also maintain that the + versions should be worth more than the standards, or most teams won't want to turn them on.

 

I agree that it is unlikely to affect the top teams (not much is going to, really), but it would certainly help team members on non-steamrolling teams feel like they are contributing through precision controls or removals.

[golstat2003]

On 5/10/2021 at 7:21 PM, MTeague said:

This is a big part of why I solo as much as I do. 

 

I enjoy reading the NPC text, and the mission text. Doesn't matter if it's a story arc I've already done 20 times. I still like reading them. 

Teams won't wait. So I usually don't team.

 

Teams, other than the leader, also can't see that mission text.

[Ukase]

Collaborative completion is one of the most under-utilized assets in this game. There are so many players who want to team with like-minded folks, and it seems rare that they find each other. I lead a group of folks 2x a week, red and blue side, where we aim to collaboratively complete the missions so everyone gets merits, everyone can read the npc story stuff if they wish. We don't speed through (even though it kills me to go so slowly), we don't take 2xp. We just plod through it. Often, we take two paths because half of us weren't paying attention. Nothing like a lot of damage taken to get you to pay attention and merge back together as a team. 

Someone suggested you find like-minded people and do play the content the way you like to play it. These two events seem to satisfy those who prefer content over rewards. 

Me, I prefer ranged over melee. I think fold space and worm hole are situational powers - like pulling hami out of the goo in lady gray. I do not appreciate teammates removing npcs from my attacks that are PBAoE or cones. But, I deal with it when I have to by moving a group ahead. You want those npcs, you got 'em. Now you kill 'em. I can sympathize with the original poster, because it's annoying to have to use the f key to line up the next attack. At least as a brute or a tank, you have a taunt aura and can keep the bad guys near you. The poor scrapper...always having to chase the bad guys down. I can find more bad things than good to say about my current project, a mace/fire scrapper. No defense debuff protection. No KB protection, save from IO slotting, slow to blossom when leveling through. Crits are nice, but unpredictable. What good is a crit against a minion with 1/2 health? I wanted it against the boss. (I do get them on occasion, but I never know when they'll happen is my point) 

Short version - there's always something in the game that your character will find annoying or frustrating. No matter what your power set, your AT, your slotting, your choice of teammates. Nothing's perfect. If it weren't for these annoyances, the game would get super-dull, super fast. 

[Snarky]

20 minutes ago, Ukase said:

. I think fold space and worm hole are situational powers - like pulling hami out of the goo in lady gray. I do not appreciate teammates removing npcs from my attacks that are PBAoE or cones. But, I deal with it when I have to by moving a group ahead. You want those npcs, you got 'em. Now you kill 'em.

grrrr.  I love that fold space is in the game.  i am sure there are smart uses for it.  trying to think of one.  there must be.  On my Brute and just popped Soul Drain and there is suddenly no one that my PBAoE hits to buff me.  on my Blaster, Aim+Buildup + two AoE Loc rain DoT.  Everybody is gone.  They all got sucked over to the guy on the other side of the giant room.  Uh-huh.  Okay.  I will just move on to the next floor.  You guys got this.

[arcane]

The only thing particularly situational about Wormhole and Fold Space is that their usefulness takes a sharp dive against level 54’s with bosses.

[ZemX]

On 5/12/2021 at 8:08 AM, Heraclea said:

I reckon they know how their powers work and how to use them.

Sure, but "teamwork" isn't eight people just doing their own thing, ideally.    It's also thinking about the way the rest of the team works and how things can work better that makes you more than just someone who understands their own powers and role.

 

People immobilizing scattered mobs over a 30ft radius area only really works for teammates who can do wide area damage.  That's nice and all, but if that's just you and maybe one other teammate... you kind of aren't helping.  Holding off on pressing that button for a few seconds isn't that hard.  Folding space around the tanker/brute instead of you doesn't prevent you from following up with your own AoE.  It just means everyone else can do that same.

 

I mean, I don't pretend to know how every AT works.  I stick to the few that interest me.  But I can see what they're doing on a team and adapt my play.  I can see a Brute or Tanker running around gathering up enemies and hold off on running in to pull aggro with an attack right away.  I can see them corner pulling out of a room that seems to have multiple level 54 groups in aggro range of each other and NOT interrupt their pull before it has gathered at the corner.

 

Yet I would say more often than not, PuG teammates simply can't resist attacking long enough to let that properly develop.  At best it just means it takes longer to clear.  At worst, team gets wiped.  Some in this thread are already dismissing this sort of play as being overly concerned about efficiency.   

 

I just call it good teamwork.  Nobody HAS to do it... but isn't it nice when they do?

[Apparition]

14 minutes ago, arcane said:

The only thing particularly situational about Wormhole and Fold Space is that their usefulness takes a sharp dive against level 54’s with bosses.

 

Not if you use an Ultimate inspiration just before hand.

[arcane]

12 minutes ago, Apparition said:

 

Not if you use an Ultimate inspiration just before hand.

True. But even when you make north of a million a minute, who wants to keep up with 500k a minute 😕

[arcane]

About the disruption of AoE teleports, immobilizes, etc... it might be an issue if the team stood to make real gains by coordination, but when the whole team is going to steamroll a +4 mob in seconds regardless of whether or not that all happens within the tank’s AoE radius? At that point, IMO it’s on the melee to stop complaining about nothing. I coordinate and use tactics when it’s needed and not when it’s clearly not (which is often).

Edited May 13, 2021 by arcane

[Apparition]

8 minutes ago, arcane said:

True. But even when you make north of a million a minute, who wants to keep up with 500k a minute 😕

 

Depends on the situation.  I have a couple of friends that routinely Wormhole/Fold Space Rikti on the ramps during mothership raids to the bowl because people can’t stop themselves from fighting Rikti on the ramps no matter how many times that they are told not to.

 

I have also seen a couple of people Wormhole/Fold Space Praetorian Warriors out of the blue patches on the Apex TF.

[Snarky]

26 minutes ago, Apparition said:

 

Not if you use an Ultimate inspiration just before hand.

i buy 4 ultimate inspirations each week to use on Really Hard Way Magisterium trial.  when (less now, i'm getting better at it) i get killed i bitch vociferously about the money Tyrant just cost me.  popping an ultimate to do fold space on random mobs....well, have fun with that.  i guess.

[Hew]

1 hour ago, Snarky said:

On my Brute and just popped Soul Drain and there is suddenly no one that my PBAoE hits to buff me. 

 

You mean, you werent ahead of combat on your brute, hit fs before the team got there, and got max targets on your soul drain?

 

Just trying to follow here.

[arcane]

16 minutes ago, Snarky said:

i buy 4 ultimate inspirations each week to use on Really Hard Way Magisterium trial.  when (less now, i'm getting better at it) i get killed i bitch vociferously about the money Tyrant just cost me.  popping an ultimate to do fold space on random mobs....well, have fun with that.  i guess.

I mean 15 million to teleport bosses for a whole MSR is just pennies to a lot of the megabillionaire players here... but to someone who makes at least one new purply 50 a week, the budget is a little tight for it 😞

[Andreah]

46 minutes ago, Snarky said:

i buy 4 ultimate inspirations each week to use on Really Hard Way Magisterium trial.  when (less now, i'm getting better at it) i get killed i bitch vociferously about the money Tyrant just cost me.  popping an ultimate to do fold space on random mobs....well, have fun with that.  i guess.

/bind <key> "powexec_name Fold Space$$inspexec_name Ultimate"

 

I actually use this on my tanker. I run on Ultimates almost constantly on them, and it's convenient to tie them to when I want to do a Fold.  Ultimates help in many ways, not just for fold space, and a perk of being wealthy is I can afford it. I think most people could, once they're deep in end game and playing rewarding content frequently.

 

An ultimate costs, reasonably, about 750K on the Auction. (You can also buy them with your excess Threads). They last for three minutes, which resolves to 250k per minute, or 15 Million  per hour. That's not much for being a full +1 level shift over and above your normal level shift almost all the time.

 

YMMV.

[ZemX]

1 hour ago, arcane said:

About the disruption of AoE teleports, immobilizes, etc... it might be an issue if the team stood to make real gains by coordination, but when the whole team is going to steamroll a +4 mob in seconds regardless of whether or not that all happens within the tank’s AoE radius? At that point, IMO it’s on the melee to stop complaining about nothing. I coordinate and use tactics when it’s needed and not when it’s clearly not (which is often).

Well first off, we're talking about pick-up teams because a regular group would have already worked this out.  But second, if you're telling me you regularly join random groups that clear +4 spawns which have been immobilized over a scattered 30ft radius area in "seconds", ummm... I"ll just have to say you and I are playing different games or else I have really bad luck with pick up teams.  

 

I'm sure people will now jump in to tell me how this is possible, even though I haven't said it isn't.  I'm saying it isn't common.  At least not on Everlasting in pick-up TFs and mission teams it isn't.