Changing rarity via converters

[Karthunk]

We were talking about this on the Discord general channel earlier today. In making advancement so easy, it could potentially turn off players, not keep them playing as long if they don't have to trudge uphill in the snow both ways to get their characters built how they want them.

 

Of course, this game doesn't depend on monthly subscription feels to keep going, so maybe not keeping players as long isn't necessarily a bad thing. :)

 

Except it depends on donations which will start to dry up as people lose interest. This is a "not for profit" deal which means a couple of poor months on donations will bring the end. The new car smell fades fast when people find nothing left to work towards.

 

I should not be worth a billion infamy at this point, I haven't had to work hard enough to reach this level.

 

A couple thoughts here - Let's separate the market from general gameplay. 

1.) People leveling up and people earning boatloads of influence are 2 separate parts of the game.  One part of the gameplay is pretty much required (leveling up), and the other is really entirely optional (the marketplace)

For example - I hate leveling too quickly - I know that if I want to level quicker, I have many options, but I'm frustrated that the only option to go slower is too turn off XP. 

 

But the market...It's really easy to ignore if you want.  In fact, you can level up to 50 and not play the market once - you still earn inf, still get enhancements and can still craft away...I don't do the enhancement converter game, at all, I have a lot, haven't tried to sell them yet, I'm just not interested...

 

2.) However, removing the Enhancement Converters from Reward Merits sounds like a case of "I got what I wanted, but now you can't get the same".  While having them there means the price might stay low, removing them only ensures that those who already have them can earn more influence for theirs and no one else gets to play in the sandbox...doesn't sound fair...

 

3.) It is a double blind market - prices are going to go up and down based on supply/demand...My thoughts are let the long term work itself out...there are always levers the dev's can pull later if it continues to be a big problem (remove seeded items from the market, increase the cost for converters, etc)...but it feels too soon to worry...

 

I will be happy to give away every infamy that I have to contest if they fix this now.

[justicebeliever]

Karthunk - I've read your earlier posts, but I guess I'm unclear on why you think the change is critical...what's the risk if the prices drop on these?

 

 

[Adeon Hawkwood]

I should not be worth a billion infamy at this point, I haven't had to work hard enough to reach this level.

The thing is that has absolutely nothing to do with enhancement converters. It's always been possible to make tones of inf from the market. Now in terms of time:inf yes it is one of the most profitable things you can do in game but that's because relatively few people are interested in doing it. If you removed converters it would still be the most profitable way to make inf (it was on live after all, even long before converters were available).

 

So removing converters won't stop people making billion of inf at low levels by playing the market, it will just increase costs for everyone else and personally that smacks of telling people to pull themselves up by their bootstraps.

[Karthunk]

I should not be worth a billion infamy at this point, I haven't had to work hard enough to reach this level.

The thing is that has absolutely nothing to do with enhancement converters. It's always been possible to make tones of inf from the market. Now in terms of time:inf yes it is one of the most profitable things you can do in game but that's because relatively few people are interested in doing it. If you removed converters it would still be the most profitable way to make inf (it was on live after all, even long before converters were available).

 

So removing converters won't stop people making billion of inf at low levels by playing the market, it will just increase costs for everyone else and personally that smacks of telling people to pull themselves up by their bootstraps.

 

It has everything to do with converters. I didn't "play" with the market, nor did I spend any meaningful time learning the market. All I did was take worthless enhancements and instantly turn them into enhancements worth millions of infamy. It's not one of the most profitable things to do in the game it is THE most profitable.

[Shinobu]

 

That's called playing the market.  It doesn't really get a lot more complex than that.

 

Anyway get back to me about this idea after I've reached 100 billion influence and over 100 fully IO'd level 50s.  ^_^  Then maybe I'll be bored.

[_NOPE_]

I should not be worth a billion infamy at this point, I haven't had to work hard enough to reach this level.

The thing is that has absolutely nothing to do with enhancement converters. It's always been possible to make tones of inf from the market. Now in terms of time:inf yes it is one of the most profitable things you can do in game but that's because relatively few people are interested in doing it. If you removed converters it would still be the most profitable way to make inf (it was on live after all, even long before converters were available).

 

So removing converters won't stop people making billion of inf at low levels by playing the market, it will just increase costs for everyone else and personally that smacks of telling people to pull themselves up by their bootstraps.

 

It has everything to do with converters. I didn't "play" with the market, nor did I spend any meaningful time learning the market. All I did was take worthless enhancements and instantly turn them into enhancements worth millions of infamy. It's not one of the most profitable things to do in the game it is THE most profitable.

 

So? I'm not seeing the problem here. Can you please spell it out for a simpleton like myself? What's wrong with people getting things really easily in a game whose purpose is to entertain, rather than frustrate?

[Karthunk]

I should not be worth a billion infamy at this point, I haven't had to work hard enough to reach this level.

The thing is that has absolutely nothing to do with enhancement converters. It's always been possible to make tones of inf from the market. Now in terms of time:inf yes it is one of the most profitable things you can do in game but that's because relatively few people are interested in doing it. If you removed converters it would still be the most profitable way to make inf (it was on live after all, even long before converters were available).

 

So removing converters won't stop people making billion of inf at low levels by playing the market, it will just increase costs for everyone else and personally that smacks of telling people to pull themselves up by their bootstraps.

 

It has everything to do with converters. I didn't "play" with the market, nor did I spend any meaningful time learning the market. All I did was take worthless enhancements and instantly turn them into enhancements worth millions of infamy. It's not one of the most profitable things to do in the game it is THE most profitable.

 

So? I'm not seeing the problem here. Can you please spell it out for a simpleton like myself? What's wrong with people getting things really easily in a game whose purpose is to entertain, rather than frustrate?

 

When can I chose what level I want to be when I make a new character? I also want a button that will instantly take me wherever I want to go in the game because I find it frustrating at times to press my direction keys. Et cetera....

 

 

[_NOPE_]

I don't see an issue with these things. Hell, I've been clamoring for this button for some time now:

 

 

People should be able to have fun in a game. Garry's Mod is so popular because you can pretty much to whatever you want and go nuts.

[MunkiLord]

I'll be bored with the game when I can solo the Ms Liberty TF with an AoE focused Scrapper. Until that time I there will be something more I want to accomplish in game.

[Murcielago]

I don't see an issue with these things. Hell, I've been clamoring for this button for some time now:

 

People should be able to have fun in a game. Garry's Mod is so popular because you can pretty much to whatever you want and go nuts.

What's Garry's mod?

[justicebeliever]

I'm guessing it's this?  Never heard of it before...Sounds like Minecraft Creative Mode - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garry's_Mod

[_NOPE_]

That's the one.

[Coyote]

I should not be worth a billion infamy at this point, I haven't had to work hard enough to reach this level.

The thing is that has absolutely nothing to do with enhancement converters. It's always been possible to make tones of inf from the market. Now in terms of time:inf yes it is one of the most profitable things you can do in game but that's because relatively few people are interested in doing it. If you removed converters it would still be the most profitable way to make inf (it was on live after all, even long before converters were available).

 

So removing converters won't stop people making billion of inf at low levels by playing the market, it will just increase costs for everyone else and personally that smacks of telling people to pull themselves up by their bootstraps.

 

It has everything to do with converters. I didn't "play" with the market, nor did I spend any meaningful time learning the market. All I did was take worthless enhancements and instantly turn them into enhancements worth millions of infamy. It's not one of the most profitable things to do in the game it is THE most profitable.

 

So? I'm not seeing the problem here. Can you please spell it out for a simpleton like myself? What's wrong with people getting things really easily in a game whose purpose is to entertain, rather than frustrate?

 

When can I chose what level I want to be when I make a new character? I also want a button that will instantly take me wherever I want to go in the game because I find it frustrating at times to press my direction keys. Et cetera....

 

Slippery slope argument.

Do you see every character in the game have every IO in any set that they want? No? Then why make ridiculous metaphors?

 

The converters make it easier for people who play story arcs and task forces to raise a lot of money, but that only matches up to what other players could do by playing the market. I've made millions by using the market to obtain and use converters, and it's good that players who just want to run missions have access to a methodology of earning IOs that compares to playing the market or farming.

[hastened]

It is easy to actively marketeer now thanks to the readily available enhancement converters, where you can just make a million+ inf a minute whenever by clicking a bunch of times and interacting with the auction house.  The fastest inf per unit time invested is still going to be flipping to provide price stabilization though, I think; that makes time you're not playing work for you.

 

Personally, on live I had a marketeer character who did all of the flipping and whatnot because I wanted to be able to afford anything, and I could.  I'm in the same position here, and while it is a little bit easier and faster just because a fully IOed out build is 10 times cheaper here than live, it doesn't really impact how I play.

 

The thing is, City has never really been about loot.  It didn't even have an endgame for a large portion of its life, the primary focus was on making lots of different characters concepts, trying out lots of power set combos, build options and/or engaging in a bunch of different story arcs.  It just didn't develop a loot oriented culture, and thus it is still works as a game if everyone gets everything for free in a way that, say, everquest just wouldn't.

[Scientist]

The converters make it easier for people who play story arcs and task forces to raise a lot of money, but that only matches up to what other players could do by playing the market.

 

Even though margins are narrower, and I'm finding it harder as I go along to get the Inf/hour I had been getting in the market, I like this aspect of it, that the new market actually encourages marketers to play the game as well to get merits.  I also like that IO builds will be much more affordable for many more people, and they could potentially afford them without hundreds of hours on a dedicated farmer or being forced to play the market. 

 

I suspect that cheaper prices will get more people who really don't like the market enough to learn how to make money in it to put together at least decent IO builds, find out how nice they are, and create more customers for marketers.  I also suspect that more people will stick with the game because of being able to do that, but we'll have to see.  I'm certainly sure that they are a long way from losing so many people they can't keep the servers funded, they are still getting their month's funding in under an hour. 

[The_Cheeseman]

I just want to chime in to say that this discussion is not about difficulty. Farming has never been difficult, in fact it is specifically intended to be trivial gameplay. Allowing players to acquire the loot they want by actively enjoying themselves rather than feeling compelled to spend their time repeating trivial tasks is a good thing. It’s not making the game easier, it’s removing an unnecessary time sink. This is why making it possible to acquire all the stuff you want via reward merits is a great idea, stuff that awards merits are the activities we should be incentivizing. I’d argue that inf farming is an unhealthy mode of play that we’ve unfortunately come to accept from its ubiquity in MMOs. Any changes which result in less compulsive play and more enjoyable play seems like a win in my book.

 

I can’t speak for everyone, but I don’t think it’s too far off to assume most of us are working adults with families and other responsibilities putting demands on our valuable free time. Do you really want to spend that time mindlessly killing trivial MOBs just to watch a number slowly creep upwards? I’d much rather get my character all decked out, play it until I get bored, and then move on to one of my other alts. Endless vertical progression serves no purpose in a game that’s always been about experimenting and discovering novel play experiences.

[Robotech_Master]

Yeah, hear hear.

 

And also, one of the reasons I play this game is to feel like I'm good at something. I do love mowing through mobs with my 50+1 Fire/Fire Tanker, as I feel like I'm good at that--but I also like the feeling of looking at 10 digits in my Inf counter and feeling like I'm good at making it grow through conversion practices too. :)

[yrtalien]

How do you change an enhancers rarity?  I have enhancement converters and when I click convert it lets me convert within set of random within rarity.... What am I missing?

[Adeon Hawkwood]

How do you change an enhancers rarity?  I have enhancement converters and when I click convert it lets me convert within set of random within rarity.... What am I missing?

There's a little pull down menu that will let let convert within type instead of within rarity.

[greenstalker]

Someone mentioned something about people getting their build complete might get bored earlier in the thread. This game is one of the first ones that terms like altist and altism created. There are very few people who keep playing the same toon in this game so as long as altists are majority market won't be saturated. Besides like someone mentioned lowest and highest limits for certain things are set thanks to they are available in merit vendor. Like a converter will never go up more than 333.333 since with 1 merit you can buy 3 and merit has an option for buying at 1 million. Vendors buy recipes and salvages at certain prices. For recipes in AH having lower costs is because of people being lazy but salvages hardly drops under their vendor sell point since you get more salvages than recipes so the loss will be greater.

 

As someone who lacks the luck to play the conversion game (i tired it and lost 5 million in a night because converters stuck in switching between two useless enhancements) and the patience for waiting for my stuff being sold (I need that lotg now not tomorrow morning so this needs to be sold now :P ) market play won't be an option for me for the foreseeable future.

[Scientist]

I do love mowing through mobs with my 50+1 Fire/Fire Tanker, as I feel like I'm good at that--but I also like the feeling of looking at 10 digits in my Inf counter and feeling like I'm good at making it grow through conversion practices too. :)

 

See, I find the farming process quite boring, but enjoy figuring out the market, whereas all of my friends are the reverse (or don't enjoy either, and if I ever want their mains to be IOed out to team with, I'll be supplying them. . .). 

 

I'm glad there are people who like farming, because there has to be new Inf coming into the market, in a vacuum it would be a money sink because of the game's commission.  I'm glad there are people who like marketing, because there is always a supply of things I might want available, I don't have to personally store it all in my base. 

 

I also find it fascinating as an academic exercise how different prices of all kinds of things are on this market versus live, because of the combination of inexpensive enhancement converters, and the market readusting levels of recipes and enhancements as needed for orders.  I never dare sell anything to a vendor now without checking the AH first, you never know when that level 16 recipe is in super demand because it happens to lie in a niche where it will convert to something valuable most of the time. . . 

[Bropine]

How do you change an enhancers rarity?  I have enhancement converters and when I click convert it lets me convert within set of random within rarity.... What am I missing?

There's a little pull down menu that will let let convert within type instead of within rarity.

 

OK. I tried the enhancement converter thing for the first time last night. I used a level 30 uncommon in the "immobilize category". In this category there are, I think, 2 uncommons and 3 rares. I used the dropdown menu and chose "by category". It converted into the other uncommon enhancement in the "immobilize category"....Ugh. Did I do something wrong, or did I just get unlucky in the game of Converter Roulette?

[Adeon Hawkwood]

OK. I tried the enhancement converter thing for the first time last night. I used a level 30 uncommon in the "immobilize category". In this category there are, I think, 2 uncommons and 3 rares. I used the dropdown menu and chose "by category". It converted into the other uncommon enhancement in the "immobilize category"....Ugh. Did I do something wrong, or did I just get unlucky in the game of Converter Roulette?

Amusingly enough, the answer is both. At level 30 your uncommon has a 61% chance to convert into a rare enhancement (it's not quite 2/3rds since Debilitative Action has an uncommon despite mostly being a rare set). So you got somewhat unlucky getting another uncommon instead of a rare (although you can always re-roll).

 

However you also did it wrong by starting with a level 30. You see immobilize has all four sets available at level 30 so it's possible to roll into the other uncommon set. If you had instead used a level 31 (or higher) Enfeebled Operation or a level 19 (or lower) Rooting Grasp then you would have been guaranteed to roll into the rare set since the other uncommon set isn't available there (side note, the rooting grasp option isn't guaranteed to roll into a rare since as I mentioned one IO in Debilitative Action is still uncommon and would require an in-set roll to get a rare).

[AboveTheChemist]

one IO in Debilitative Action is still uncommon and would require an in-set roll to get a rare

Is that actually the case though? As Shinobu explained to me in the Zero to 1M thread, even though some IOs appear to be uncommon (yellow name), the converter treats them as rare.

 

I know for a fact that there are some sets (Kinetic Crash, for example) that are uncommon but appear to have a rare in them (Kinetic Crash: Knockback/Damage/Accuracy in this case). However, the converter tool treats this IO as uncommon. As I mentioned later in that thread I bought several of these thinking they were rare and that I was cleverly saving myself 2 converters, but they are uncommon, as illustrated via my logs below (I stripped out the text color tags for readability). The first conversion is an out-of-set by type, the second two are out-of-set by rarity, on level 31 enhancements.

 

2019-06-23 21:20:10 Kinetic Crash: Knockback/Damage/Accuracy successfully converted to Force Feedback: Knockback/Damage.

2019-06-23 21:20:49 Force Feedback: Knockback/Damage successfully converted to Winter's Gift: Run Speed, Jump, Flight Speed, Range/Endurance.

2019-06-23 21:28:04 Winter's Gift: Run Speed, Jump, Flight Speed, Range/Endurance successfully converted to Reactive Defenses: Defense/Endurance/Recharge.

 

Here's another example I found. These are both out-of-set by rarity conversions on level 31 enhancements. Edict of the Master: Accuracy/Damage is one of the yellow-name rare IOs.

 

2019-06-26 02:55:38 Lockdown: Accuracy/Recharge successfully converted to Edict of the Master: Accuracy/Damage.

2019-06-26 02:55:57 Edict of the Master: Accuracy/Damage successfully converted to Pacing of the Turtle: Endurance/Recharge/Slow.

 

[Adeon Hawkwood]

Is that actually the case though? As Shinobu explained to me in the Zero to 1M thread, even though some IOs appear to be uncommon (yellow name), the converter treats them as rare.

Honestly I've got no clue, I'm assuming that they are uncommon since that's how the wiki lists them but I've never really had a cause to test them myself. I was unaware that some uncommons are being treated as rares by the converters, that's good info to have.

 

I know for a fact that there are some sets (Kinetic Crash, for example) that are uncommon but appear to have a rare in them (Kinetic Crash: Knockback/Damage/Accuracy in this case). However, the converter tool treats this IO as uncommon. As I mentioned later in that thread I bought several of these thinking they were rare and that I was cleverly saving myself 2 converters, but they are uncommon, as illustrated via my logs below (I stripped out the text color tags for readability). The first conversion is an out-of-set by type, the second two are out-of-set by rarity, on level 31 enhancements.

Huh, I never knew that, that's good info to have though. Based on the facts here is sounds like maybe the converters use the rarity of the set rather than the rarity of the specific IOs. There are a number of sets where either 5 IOs are Uncommon and one is Rare or 5 IOs are Rare and 1 is Uncommon. But it looks like maybe the converts treat all IOs in a set as having the same rarity?