What do consider “Soloing AVs” to mean?

[Bill Z Bubba]

14 minutes ago, Snarky said:

I do not make character notes much.  And always forget to look to see if someone has a note.

 

But if you invite me to a Khan then insist on running it at +4 you will get such a note.

 

Stupid is not the word.  It is not stupid enough.

 

He ain't that bad. Time consuming, yes. But I've been on various +4 Khans and we got the job done. What's that? Have I soloed him? HAHAHAH. No. And Aeon in MLTF... I hate that guy.

 

Regarding Eva's Praetorian Invasion arc... yes, they can all be soloed at +4. But I got bored at Diabolique and quit. A lot of times an AV fight's success is inevitable but only if ya have the time.

[siolfir]

3 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Edit: Huh. Couple things there. I survived far longer than I expected and for some reason even on a tank, I wasn't able to keep them all aggroed on me. Seemed like even having been recently hit, some would get bored and head back to their spawn points. Exited mission before faceplanting to type this. Heading back in to see if I can actually take them all out one by one at +4.

Gauntlet (and the AoE splash taunt effect) isn't a guarantee if it's a "raid" tagged mob, while Taunt is. This has been true since before it was made into a proc, which was the conventional reason (before the -range was added) given for why Tankers and Brutes should take Taunt anyway, and why you can peel certain mobs off of them more easily by outdamaging them or applying a huge debuff.

 

More edits: Just to attempt to be on-topic, as many have said in the thread different AVs present different challenges even at the same ruleset. I had a much more strict rule for soloing AVs when I first made a character "to solo AVs," which was my EM/Elec Brute created back in i7 before IOs were a thing, you could mail inspirations to yourself, Energize replaced Conserve Power giving Electric Armor an uninterruptable self-heal, Incarnates, and "Ye Olde" EM nerf - when AVs only spawned solo when set to max difficulty (Relentless was equivalent to +2/x1 with bosses and AVs on). The rules then were basically inspirations in your tray, no temp powers, no outside buffs, and everything else was taken care of because the game wouldn't actually let you do it.

 

Those "rules" were because my first 50, an Ice/Rad Corruptor, was capable of soloing AVs that way (yeah, yeah, I know - a /Rad, ooh, big deal soloing AVs) as long as I wasn't mezzed and/or one-shot, and I wanted something a little sturdier to prevent the mezzed and/or one-shot part of that. Also, some mobs "con" as Hero but are Boss or EB-level - it's only in a few missions, but they exist - so it has to actually have the hit points to count.

 

I still don't count instances of using inspirations beyond what was in your tray (and heck, even some where you only use your tray if you pre-selected them specifically for the fight), non-permanent temp powers, and Lore pets, or if you outleveled them, but if someone tells me that their character soloed an AV while using BP Lore pets I won't try to tell them they didn't, it'll just get a mental eyeroll. I've done it myself just to get the badges faster, I just don't count it as "soloing" when all I'm doing is distracting the AV from pets perfectly capable of taking out GMs during their duration.

Edited June 24, 2021 by siolfir
added parenthetical notes and last clause; second edit to stay on topic; third because holy crap extra words

[SeraphimKensai]

If it cons AV/Hero and not Elite Boss we're in business, I don't care too much on the level unless I'm really testing my build in which I go to +4 to test my mettle, otherwise I'm normally a speed player and I'll test soloing Dr. Vahz and the Clockwork King at the low level end.

 

I am not opposed to using Temp Powers and as a speed player, I always toss in envenomed daggers just to help kill Regen whether solo or on a team.

[Lockpick]

19 hours ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

Just curious.  It is true that all’s fair in love and war, but I wanted to see how definitions vary when someone says their build solos AVs.

 

For me it is defeating an enemy AV solo.

 

I don't generally use anything but my powers and inspirations, but if I couldn't defeat the AV with those alone I have no issue with using temp powers, email inspirations, buffs, pets, etc.

[bodenee]

hmmm, I use EVERY advantage,  just me I guess... just set my own personal best on Hess...

 

my quickest so far was just this morning!! 

 

 

OOPS! Guess I forgot to mention that I'm going for speed!

 

Edited June 24, 2021 by bodenee

[EmperorSteele]

I feel like a filthy casual now because i consider "soloing an av" to be dualboxing with a support toon while whipping out all the temps and summons i can muster.

 

And that's for even cons!

[tidge]

I'm a 'free thinker' on the topic of soloing AVs. Once a character can survive an AV, my primary consideration is surviving boredom when fighting solo against an AV. It's not as if there is a day job for having an AV beat at/on a character.

 

Many of my characters can survive AVs (and higher level zone GMs) without being able to defeat them.

 

Some of my characters can survive and defeat AVs, but only if RNGsus is kind. One missed attack/debuff at an inopportune time can have a BIG effect on how the fight goes.

 

A few of my characters can defeat AVs through some combination of button smashing.

 

Depending on the character, sometimes I consider it a 'win' if (solo) I can get the AV/GM stunned (or otherwise victim to 'control') or flopping around from knockup/knockdown/knockback.

[arcane]

1 hour ago, EmperorSteele said:

I feel like a filthy casual now because i consider "soloing an av" to be dualboxing with a support toon while whipping out all the temps and summons i can muster.

 

And that's for even cons!

Could I interview you for my Muggle Studies thesis?

[aethereal]

I wanted to see what I could do with my minmaxed ice/bio stalker, and did a long list of AVs.  I'd try them at +4, no insps.  If that didn't go well, I'd use insps.  If it continued not to go well, I'd use envenomed daggers.

 

I don't have the full list anymore, but my recollection is:

 

Most of 'em I could do +4, no insps, no temps.  (like, the low-tier ones:  Mako, Black Scorpion, Marauder, Malaise, etc.)

A pretty substantial number of them required insps. (definitely needed them for people with substantial defense debuffs, so Chimera, Battle Maiden, Scirocco.  Needed them for Ghost Widow)

A few I had specific problems with dealing with their health/healing, so the envenomed daggers came out (Dominatrix, omg, she does no damage but what the hell is up with her resists?  Not AVs, but I used envenomed daggers on Jack and Eochai.  I can't remember what I used on the Seed of Hamidon, but probably daggers)

 

And a few I couldn't beat at all solo.  Recluse, Nightstar, Siege.  Couldn't beat the three Seeds of Hamidon at the end of the Number 6 arc -- never could quite figure out why.  Do the remaining ones get buffed after each one's death?

[Pixie_Knight]

Yeah, Recluse is a pain and a half even as an Elite Boss. As an AV, I definitely feel like I want backup.

[JasperStone]

No enhancements slotted

.... and using Brawl only

[Yomo Kimyata]

1 hour ago, aethereal said:

I wanted to see what I could do with my minmaxed ice/bio stalker, and did a long list of AVs.  I'd try them at +4, no insps.  If that didn't go well, I'd use insps.  If it continued not to go well, I'd use envenomed daggers.

 

I don't have the full list anymore, but my recollection is:

 

Most of 'em I could do +4, no insps, no temps.  (like, the low-tier ones:  Mako, Black Scorpion, Marauder, Malaise, etc.)

A pretty substantial number of them required insps. (definitely needed them for people with substantial defense debuffs, so Chimera, Battle Maiden, Scirocco.  Needed them for Ghost Widow)

A few I had specific problems with dealing with their health/healing, so the envenomed daggers came out (Dominatrix, omg, she does no damage but what the hell is up with her resists?  Not AVs, but I used envenomed daggers on Jack and Eochai.  I can't remember what I used on the Seed of Hamidon, but probably daggers)

 

And a few I couldn't beat at all solo.  Recluse, Nightstar, Siege.  Couldn't beat the three Seeds of Hamidon at the end of the Number 6 arc -- never could quite figure out why.  Do the remaining ones get buffed after each one's death?

I love this post.  It gives context and relative comparisons.

 

My benchmark is my broadsword/invulnerability scrapper at +3.  I agree Nightstar was a pain in the rear.

[Bill Z Bubba]

8 minutes ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

I love this post.  It gives context and relative comparisons.

 

My benchmark is my broadsword/invulnerability scrapper at +3.  I agree Nightstar was a pain in the rear.

 

It was the big robot version of Siege in Maria's arc that was my tank's stopper. I could not get past his heals. Finally just said fark it and called in some SGmates to take him down.

[UberGuy]

6 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

and for some reason even on a tank, I wasn't able to keep them all aggroed on me

 

Taunts can miss AVs and GMs. Even though they're auto-hit, they have a condition expression on them that still checks the toHit roll outcome, and if it was not sufficient to hit, the taunt doesn't happen. My guess is that this was what was up, especially if you were counting on any taunt auras you wouldn't normally slot for accuracy.

[America's Angel]

[siolfir]

56 minutes ago, UberGuy said:

 

Taunts can miss AVs and GMs. Even though they're auto-hit, they have a condition expression on them that still checks the toHit roll outcome, and if it was not sufficient to hit, the taunt doesn't happen. My guess is that this was what was up, especially if you were counting on any taunt auras you wouldn't normally slot for accuracy.

Punchvoke/Gauntlet can miss (mentioned earlier), but the actual power Taunt only has a to-hit check for player targets, not raid targets. You probably already know this but the wording can read as if you were talking about the power also, so I was just trying to clear up the difference between Taunt's effects:

 

and Gauntlet's effects:

 

before it confuses someone new.

 

 

[UberGuy]

Actually, I was misremembering that Taunt proper only had a chance to miss against players. So I guess we'd need to know what Bill was up to in terms of taunting to know if the punchvoke behavior could explain it.

[Bill Z Bubba]

9 minutes ago, UberGuy said:

Actually, I was misremembering that Taunt proper only had a chance to miss against players. So I guess we'd need to know what Bill was up to in terms of taunting to know if the punchvoke behavior could explain it.

 

15 or 16 AVs on map. All other critters wiped out.

 

I could only keep around 10 on me. If I went after the others and even attempted to bounce targets and use aoes only the freshly hit would stick around while the rest would just forget I was there and wander back to their spawn points. It was strange. No Taunt in the build but punchvoke and taunt aura were in full effect. It behaved as if there is a lower aggro cap for AVs than for regular critters but I didn't think that was a thing. This was with my shield/nrg tank.

Edited June 24, 2021 by Bill Z Bubba

[siolfir]

9 minutes ago, UberGuy said:

Actually, I was misremembering that Taunt proper only had a chance to miss against players. So I guess we'd need to know what Bill was up to in terms of taunting to know if the punchvoke behavior could explain it.

Ah, okay. With it lowercase and you mentioning taunt auras I thought that you were referring to the Gauntlet effect.

 

1 minute ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

15 or 16 AVs on map. All other critters wiped out.

 

I could only keep around 10 on me. If I went after the others and even attempted to bounce targets and use aoes only the freshly hit would stick around while the rest would just forgot I was there and wander back to their spawn points. It was strange. No Taunt in the build but punchvoke and taunt aura were in full effect. It behaved as if there is a lower aggro cap for AVs than for regular critters but I didn't think that was a thing.

I don't think it's a thing either, but since it's an AI behavior I guess it's possible. I would have thought that being close enough and in LOS would have them aggro even without having a taunt effect on them since from that description there weren't enough mobs left to be over the aggro cap. But then, when the taunt was broken in Fiery Aura you saw lots of mobs just run off from taking damage from Blazing Aura and then leave the fight entirely, so it might be their normal non-taunted behavior.

[UberGuy]

8 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

15 or 16 AVs on map. All other critters wiped out.

 

I could only keep around 10 on me. If I went after the others and even attempted to bounce targets and use aoes only the freshly hit would stick around while the rest would just forget I was there and wander back to their spawn points. It was strange. No Taunt in the build but punchvoke and taunt aura were in full effect. It behaved as if there is a lower aggro cap for AVs than for regular critters but I didn't think that was a thing. This was with my shield/nrg tank.

 

Punchvoke and the auras can miss their taunts against AVs. Also, punchvoke has a target cap of 5. If they were over-level, there's also a chance that any misses or critters out of range causing any taunts more distant AVs did get to wear off.

 

Edit: But yeah, them just wandering away does seem odd.

Edited June 24, 2021 by UberGuy

[Bill Z Bubba]

9 minutes ago, UberGuy said:

Punchvoke and the auras can miss their taunts against AVs. Also, punchvoke has a target cap of 5. If they were over-level, there's also a chance that any misses or critters out of range causing any taunts more distant AVs did get to wear off.

 

But once a critter on a map has been aggroed, if I'm the only player on the map, shouldn't they stay aggroed?

[siolfir]

10 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

But once a critter on a map has been aggroed, if I'm the only player on the map, shouldn't they stay aggroed?

Not necessarily - you can see this behavior when you "brute-stealth" a mission: even mobs hit by a taunt aura will stop coming after you once the taunt wears off if you haven't done anything else. I'm leaning towards "high threat caused them to back away, lack of taunt led them to go back to their spawn point" as the reason but I'm operating on observations of AI behavior and assumptions, not any inside knowledge.

[Bill Z Bubba]

14 minutes ago, siolfir said:

Not necessarily - you can see this behavior when you "brute-stealth" a mission: even mobs hit by a taunt aura will stop coming after you once the taunt wears off if you haven't done anything else. I'm leaning towards "high threat caused them to back away, lack of taunt led them to go back to their spawn point" as the reason but I'm operating on observations of AI behavior and assumptions, not any inside knowledge.

 

This appears to be the case. As long as I made absolutely sure to damage them all at regular intervals, they stayed on me. If I forgot about someone blasting me at range and got too far away from them, they'd wander off.

 

Side note: No, my tank can't survive this ride at +4. One AV at a time, sure, but I might not get it done in the 2 hour time limit. On the herding of them, even with avoiding Malaise and Numina, it just ends up being more than my mitigation can handle. Granted, I never popped One with the Shield as I plan to respec out of it, but even Malaise on his own was a rough fight due to all the psi damage, so I seriously doubt my current build would live long with all 15 beatin on me. Regardless, It's a fun test.

Edited June 24, 2021 by Bill Z Bubba

[Ukase]

Anecdotally, soloing to me will depend on the AV I'm facing and the character I face it with. 

Vandal, Clamor, Burkholder, Arakhn, Jurrasik, Hopkins, Countess Crey, Clockwork King, Dr. Vahz - these are all just bags of HP. I remember against Dr. Vahz, my rad/stone tank simply could not do enough damage (pre-tank changes) to Vahz, despite Envenomed Daggers and large reds. Just couldn't kill him. But my blasters, corruptors, brutes, scrappers have no issues with any of these. 

To be fully transparent, I always have envenomed dagger, and a ranged summons for my melee characters and a tank summons for my ranged characters. I don't always use either, but if I need them, I use them. With the tank, I tried to forgo use of these, but no dice. Rolled out the echo version of positron and beat Vahz pretty quickly. 

Yesterday, I took my fire/ice tank and solo'd all three blue side respec trials without use of lores or summons. But I did use 24 reds, particularly against the freaks, as they tend to rez when you'd prefer they not. No AV, but plenty of mobs and a reactor to keep healthy (enough). 

I am what you would call team averse most of the time. The idea of recruiting a team for killing heroes in Recluse's Victory for badges..that would just invite bored pvpers to grief me, so I am reluctant to recruit for that, so I will always try to solo those first. I remember, using the in-zone hvas, plus my lore pets, I got through all the AVs except Positron with my first blaster. I just couldn't get him without getting killed! My stats were great for pve, but in PvP, for some stupid reason, the old school devs changed things up and ruined any desire I ever had for pvp. But I digress. 
I had a knight errant, a shivan, clockwork gears, a Tsoo, a werewolf, katie hannon emp temp, an HVAS (rwz/msr), lore pets and the zone heavy and only just barely beat Positron. The only temp that was left was the Knight Errant if you can believe that. Which is crazy because on Red side, I solo Positron and he's fairly simple with a luck or two. 

[arcane]

I don’t really care which distinction you use, but it’s good to be transparent if you’re just talking about some even con situation with temp powers.

 

I don’t much care for the hard AV solo’ing gigs one way or another. It’s just more tedious than it is difficult IMO. Maintaining completely constant clicking for that long is plainly annoying to me. When I read this thread this afternoon, I loaded up a Nightstar mission with my SR/BS tanker. Went with level 54, no temps, no insps (though I have no qualms about insps). Took me 5 whole minutes to whittle Nightstar down to like 90% HP. About a month ago I solo’d level 54 Infernal with an Ill/Dark but it took north of half an hour. Just ugh no thanks all around from me.