Determining if the Game is Too Easy

[Monos King]

Topics in Suggestions and Feedback convinced me to focus in on this apparent issue. So here it is, in an attempt to consolidate concerns further.

 

We need to divide the terms "challenge" and "difficulty" so we're all on the same page. Whether or not there is a challenge for omega OP characters is irrelevant. The issue is there is no challenge at all to reaching said omega OP status. Progression is not difficult to do, and that's what is meant when I at the very least say the game itself is too easy. Here are some obstacles commonly pointed that are deployed to create challenge, which as a result people have attachment to.

 

1) Countering different enemies abilities
2) Encountering large amounts of enemies
3) Learning how to deploy the abilities of the character itself

4) Learning how to best enhance 
5) Navigating certain maps
6) Learning the mechanics of certain missions

7) Learning how to optimally adhere to the methods of overcoming certain trials/TFs

 

There are a few more, but those core elements are what help to create challenge, but not difficulty. This is because: 

 

Ways to circumvent all but 3-5

1) Being unkillable

2) Killing everything before you can be killed 

 

And getting to those two stages holds no difficulty whatsoever. Whereas the methods to make progression more difficult are:

 

1) Make IOs less accessible 

2) Make incarnates less accessible 

3) Make leveling more difficult (essentially increasing challenge as previously defined)

This is only natural, as incarnates and enhancements are the closest thing to gear in this game. 

 

There are different ways to play this game, and if you avoid some of the more challenging content, it is popularly believed you can't call the game "easy". But none of the above obstacles actually hinder progression, i.e. getting to the point of high OPness. Challenge and difficulty should be divided because one is reliant on accessibility of power and another hinges on the results of how power is deployed. 

 

The game used to have an inherent balancing factor, which made progression difficult (or at the least require investment) but didn't change the accessibility of challenge. This was how difficult it was to to acquire incarnates and IOs. The difficulty was in the tedium and rarity, however as a result, you didn't see teams running around with solo-all gods composing their entirety, which made the existing challenges greater by default. People still widely had their desired relevance in teams they would casually pick up, and the extremely invested would do their masterful speed runs at the exact same level of power they have now.

 

In synopsis, the game itself is easy because progression to a point where challenges are non-existent is not difficult. The fact that there is, in fact, a stage where challenges are non-existent is not the issue. Unless we desire to again limit the accessibility of extreme power in some way, this issue will never be resolved. I believe the absolute closest we can do is create new hyper difficult content for said OP gods, and hope they are all invested doing that so as to not trickle into the lesser level content. Seeing as IOs will however still be a factor, that will be a serrated solution at best. Thoughts?

[Dark Dove]

It's fine.

[Snarky]

To boil this down to the basics…

 

please reply.  Do you think it is 

 

A) Rabbit season

or

B) Duck season

[Monos King]

Related thread

 

[ZorkNemesis]

15 minutes ago, Snarky said:

To boil this down to the basics…

 

please reply.  Do you think it is 

 

A) Rabbit season

or

B) Duck season

 

Elmer season?

[Monos King]

@Snarky @ZorkNemesis You're both welcome to bring your discussion to DMs. Let's maintain topic.

[skoryy]

1 hour ago, Monos King said:

In synopsis, the game itself is easy because progression to a point where challenges are non-existent is not difficult.

 

Two points on that synopsis:

 

1. We have a much smaller player base than live, hence IOs and incarnates were goosed so you're not waiting months for a Luck Charm.

2. We have a lot of vets from live, like myself, who spent a lot of time leveling up our characters and tricking them out.  We really didn't want to spend all that time we did in live doing it all over again.

 

Tedium isn't difficulty.  Other games figured out over the years that you need to throw mechanics and expanded content at the player to keep their mind engaged.  Real challenge would require more than just turreting while repeating your rotation, stuff the game wasn't quite designed for what with animation locks, defense caps, et al.

 

CoH is what it is, an old school beat 'em up with occasional spurts of mechanics that require some awareness but one that can't compete on the level of other modern MMOs.  You have to start there and work your onwards.

Edited July 9, 2021 by skoryy

[Emperor Cole]

I'm ok with making the game harder. I'm not ok with nerfing procs. Can I go back to base building now?

[Monos King]

1 minute ago, skoryy said:

Tedium isn't difficulty.  Other games figured out over the years that you need to throw mechanics and expanded content at the player to keep their mind engaged.  Real challenge would require more than just turreting while repeating your rotation, stuff the game wasn't quite designed for what with animation locks, defense caps, et al.

Similar comment, I'll leave this here.

 

Tedium certainly isn't difficulty. The fact that the process itself is only a matter of tedium, is part of what makes it so easy. I think we're pretty much agreeing there. The former barrier of tedium did, however, still go leaps in preventing the situation we have now, where some express the game is "too easy".

[skoryy]

1 minute ago, Monos King said:

The former barrier of tedium did, however, still go leaps in preventing the situation we have now, where some express the game is "too easy".

 

Well, yes, some.  Why do we spend all this time debating their terms?

[Snarky]

I played a Bunch of Brutes on live using mostly SOs.  Then after a year or so i could prop up one big build at a time.  Had to shatter it if i wanted a different main.  Over time that went up to 3 or so.  
 

i still ran a lot of SO stuff.  
 

now i can pimp a 50 in about a three days from character creator to incarnate   I just did so with a new farmer.  I badge and run TF with the farmer using a second build pimped out with purples and other goodies

 

i find challenges all the time.  My pimped farmer just had a bit if excitement trying to run a Posi 1. Fire Armor at level 15 is not great. 
 

You do you. Let me enjoy the game i have back. The way it is

 

is that “on topic” enough of a direct message???

[Doomguide2005]

 

39 minutes ago, skoryy said:

2. We have a lot of vets from live, like myself, who spent a lot of time leveling up our characters and tricking them out.  We really didn't want to spend all that time we did in live doing it all over again.

     This (the part I bolded) plays a much greater role than I think is often acknowledged.  There isn't much new to surprise you when you've done it a dozen times or more.  Take 8 builds give them to 8 players who've never run an ITF or a Tinpex before but are familiar with the builds and have them give it a go.  Take 8 vets with those same builds who have run an ITF a dozen times and watch the difference in times, deaths etc..

 

[GraspingVileTerror]

I think there is perhaps another way to examine this question:

Are there players who have effectively "Beat the Game" confused and upset that they've beat the game after years of previously imagining that they would get an endless grind marathon?

 

I personally feel that it's time for widespread recognition that the game has changed, and that if we want to create a sense of "Challenge" or "Difficulty" that players once perceived the game as possessing, then we need to do so in entirely new ways.  

Not just "hard content," although I'm not against more of Piecemeal's work when it comes to new enemy types (and I think that if we could even upscale the turnaround on how frequently stuff like that gets pushed through, it would go a long way to alleviating the boredom and burnout that seem to be causing people so much concern).

But also entirely new types of content.

I've said it since the beginning; we are in a unique position to get experimental here!  We can radically redefine what it is to "play City of Heroes," while simultaneously preserving what came before and what exists presently.

 

I want to encourage everyone to stop trying to recapture something that was already fleeting by the time Sunset occurred, and try to explore the new horizons of "What IF?"

 

That's at least my perspective here.

[Tachstar]

So, I was playing my level 40 SR/MA tanker earlier this evening, running through a seemingly endless story arc centered around Lord Nemesis and those goofy bazooka-sniper guys. She's got a mix of mostly IOs, with a scattering of SOs and a couple of incomplete IO sets. A work in progress, like most of my guys. I was having a pretty good time, slowly but surely closing in on level 41, but some of the missions were getting a little too rinse and repeat-y so I started just running past the bazooka guys (some Council guys, too) whenever convenient to get to the objectives. Pretty easy to do that with SR. Then I got the mission to take down Nosferatu. Cool! I thought. Something different. Shake things up a little. This should be fun!

 

Well. No. Turned out it wasn't. For Nosferatu, maybe. But not for my tanker.

 

Nosferatu was a level 42 EB, which puzzled and perturbed me, because I'd been cruising along at +0/x1. He quickly and with authority folded, spindled, and mutilated my level 40 SR/MA tanker. So I grumbled a bit, loaded up on insps, and tried again. Can you say 'HAH hah'? I knew you could. Loaded up again, fought my way back, leveling up in the process. 41! Heh! You're in trouble now, Nosferatu, old chum! Nope. He wasn't. I hit Pocket D and got some handy dandy envenomed daggers. AV-bane, baby! Nosferatu said, "Yawn." Me being me, I kept on trying, and trying, and trying. And trying! Restarted the mission at -1/x1. He was still level 42. No matter how I mixed up the insps, whether I fought in melee range, or hovered up high spamming the daggers and that magic stick thingee, nothing worked. Got him below half health a couple of times. But invariably, inevitably, he'd heal himself right back up. Many colorful metaphors later, I called up the contact, said "<Double Dumbass On You!>", and auto-completed the mission. Logged out. Had dinner. Came back and finished the arc. Got 40-something merits out of it. Kinda felt robbed. Heh. Made lots of progress towards a debt badge.

 

Lord Nemesis, the Grand Poobah of the whole shebang, was a pushover.  Easy peasy.

 

So, anyway, right now I would have to say that the game really IS too easy -- for Nosferatu! That blankety blank blanking OP bastage. Probably decked out with ultra-violet IO sets. But it's most definitely NOT too easy for my work-in-progress level 41 SR/MA tanker.  Or me! Because I'm not OP. If anything, I'm more inclined to be PO'd.  P'd O? I dunno, I'm going to bed!

[Monos King]

27 minutes ago, Snarky said:

i find challenges all the time.  My pimped farmer just had a bit if excitement trying to run a Posi 1. Fire Armor at level 15 is not great. 

 

58 minutes ago, skoryy said:

 

Well, yes, some.  Why do we spend all this time debating their terms?

I don't disagree with the assessment the game is too easy, but I'm mostly indifferent to it at this stage. However, it's been introduced as a problem, so mapping out the source of it I find to be beneficial. 

 

As for your reply snarky, that goes back to the very core of my OP and the matter of progression. Whether or not you can find something that challenges you personally doesn't change the fact progression is extremely easy in this game. You could give me 10 elite boss pets, and I would still fail to solo nightmare mode Katie Hannon. I can be the king of soloing, and soloing Magisterium will still be too much for my best efforts. But I don't need to solo Magisterium. And I don't need to solo Katie Hannon. I certainly don't need to unslot all of my incarnates, move onto nightmare settings, or run on SOs. I already have all the god power and can crush any other content that would actually yield rewards. It can't be argued "the game isn't easy, you're just not looking" because no one can solo an end game incarnate trial, for instance.

 

Challenge exists if you make it, sure, but whether or not that challenge exists is completely irrelevant when it's always optional. Therein lies the big misconception between two sides, those that claim the game is easy are saying progression is easy, not just encounters. "What if you go seek every challenging encounter to level up, then you can personally feel it's difficult!" Sure, if you want to go solo. If you want to team, then as a result of that optional difficulty, you'll only find congregations of raid-killers running pretty TFs, and naturally those that aren't almighty are left feeling absolutely unnecessary.  "What if I say I only want to team with the underpowered?" Self limitation doesn't suddenly change the reality of the games state, the need to do so just reaffirms it. The ability to simulate difficulty doesn't make the game difficult. And who actually wants to limit themselves of the abilities they have? People would rather test the limits of their strength for challenges, not cripple themselves. You don't see runners racing each other with stilts because they've gotten so fast - they train and undertake greater challenges. When progression defines difficulty, a game extremely easy to progress through is just extremely easy. 

 

Is that actually a problem? Depends who is asked. I personally enjoy working for things. I don't believe there is satisfaction in rewards that are guaranteed. But at the same time, I enjoy quickly building PvP builds, and managing those restrictions is another worthwhile challenge for me. So even while the game is too easy, I'm not bothered. Going with the runner analogy of taking bigger challenges, I still believe the best way to solve this sort of problem is to work on creating new, harder content to stimulate those who have it all. But we shouldn't pretend this aged game isn't as easy as it is.

[Biff Pow]

The game's not easy, my character is just really powerful.

[Snarky]

1 hour ago, Monos King said:

 

Challenge exists if you make it, sure, but whether or not that challenge exists is completely irrelevant when it's always optional.

It took a lot of reading to boil down your goal. You want to remove the option to play the way i play

 

okay.  Set up your own server and recruit people who play that 801 or 805 AE arc and peeps that run Reichsman fights at +4

 

stop trying to change the game i have played since CoV came out into something you want. At least on the servers i play on. I enjoy Rechsman TFs at +0.  With fully i/o characters. Does this make me a crappy player who wants easy mode?  Oh wait i dont give a crap what anyone thinks about how i play

 

[Lines]

23 minutes ago, Snarky said:

stop trying to change the game i have played since CoV came out into something you want. At least on the servers i play on. I enjoy Rechsman TFs at +0.  With fully i/o characters. Does this make me a crappy player who wants easy mode?  Oh wait i dont give a crap what anyone thinks about how i play

 

While I don't disagree with you, MK hasn't really proposed any changes or explicitly stated any goals here. I think this thread is more of a temperature check.

 

 

I don't necessarily think there's any good reason to slow down the pace to 50 and to incarnates. Players have found, as they are prone to do, optimised ways to getting to those levels and those won't be going away. That maximised rate of progression probably won't change much regardless of any boundaries that are put in place and there is already a lot of customisation for players who don't take those routes.

 

I also don't love godly characters (narratively, I mean. I find OPness in characters doesn't resonate much with me. I like flaws.) so the whole endgame of CoH doesn't do much for me. I'm generally fine with the pace of the levelling experience, since I tend to shelve my level 50s and run another character. I'm not sure I fancy it taking longer than it does; I'm usually ready to move on when I hit 50 at the current rate. The only level range I really feel the problem in when teaming in the high 40s content, where incarnate and totally maxed out sets apply when they probably shouldn't. I wish I could enjoy the LRSF more, for example, but I just don't.

 

 

I'd prefer that incarnate abilities were... super different to what they are. Like tear it down and start over. They carry the stench of Subscribe-to-Win to me. Something a little bit more embedded in the character choices that you made, rather than something that feels so 'external'. Certainly with the goal of making them boost the player's existing powers in relevant content instead of having them outshine everything about the character. But also reduce the appeal. 

 

I have no idea how the game could satisfyingly alter the incarnate progression and keep the system it has in place, though.

[Monos King]

55 minutes ago, Snarky said:

It took a lot of reading to boil down your goal. You want to remove the option to play the way i play

 

okay.  Set up your own server and recruit people who play that 801 or 805 AE arc and peeps that run Reichsman fights at +4

 

stop trying to change the game i have played since CoV came out into something you want. At least on the servers i play on. I enjoy Rechsman TFs at +0.  With fully i/o characters. Does this make me a crappy player who wants easy mode?  Oh wait i dont give a crap what anyone thinks about how i play

 

I definitely didn't say any of that, but it's good to see how others feel about the topic of difficulty.

[Monos King]

1 hour ago, Supertanker said:

The game's not easy, my character is just really powerful

Correct. The process of getting to the point of being that powerful is easy, which is what's being examined here.

 

28 minutes ago, Lines said:

I'd prefer that incarnate abilities were... super different to what they are. Like tear it down and start over. They carry the stench of Subscribe-to-Win to me. Something a little bit more embedded in the character choices that you made, rather than something that feels so 'external'. Certainly with the goal of making them boost the player's existing powers in relevant content instead of having them outshine everything about the character. But also reduce the appeal. 

 

I have no idea how the game could satisfyingly alter the incarnate progression and keep the system it has in place, though

 

It definitely would be challenging to alter it satisfyingly, so again I'm left with the whole "game just needs better end game content to amuse our hyper gods" route that people have suggested for a little while now. 

 

I am of the opinion that alternative means of high power would be cool too though. You brought up the same concern someone did a far while back, and they suggested some sort of like tech breakthrough/culmination for their technology characters. Looking at the Praetorian villains, they are all narratively WAY more powerful than their primal counterparts, and it feels like each of them are villains that have already completed their master plans. If there were an alternative route detached and totally exclusive from incarnates, which I'll just call "Breakthrough" that was meant to imply your character had achieved their greatest goals and was now far more capable as a result (like the villain that built their doom ray or something" that would be cool. Maybe that could come with new content, it might be weaker but more flexible than incarnates (and have more options), but it'd take time to implement. If it was weaker but "funnner" than incarnates, that could offset some of the ostensible ease from the game.

Edited July 9, 2021 by Monos King

[Ghost]

I am so very confused

It is easy to get powerful.  Its equally easy to make what you do difficult (or challenging).

Not exactly sure why anything should be changed.  Play the way you like, without worrying about what others like, or how they play.

 

I'm probably missing the point.  Wont be the first, or last time.

 

 

 

 

[Monos King]

fffff

2 minutes ago, Ghost said:

I am so very confused

It is easy to get powerful.  Its equally easy to make what you do difficult (or challenging).

Not exactly sure why anything should be changed.  Play the way you like, without worrying about what others like, or how they play.

 

I'm probably missing the point.  Wont be the first, or last time.

 

 

 

 

 

3 hours ago, Monos King said:

If you want to team, then as a result of that optional difficulty, you'll only find congregations of raid-killers running pretty TFs, and naturally those that aren't almighty are left feeling absolutely unnecessary.  "What if I say I only want to team with the underpowered?" Self limitation doesn't suddenly change the reality of the games state, the need to do so just reaffirms it. The ability to simulate difficulty doesn't make the game difficult. And who actually wants to limit themselves of the abilities they have? People would rather test the limits of their strength for challenges, not cripple themselves. You don't see runners racing each other with stilts because they've gotten so fast - they train and undertake greater challenges. When progression defines difficulty, a game extremely easy to progress through is just extremely easy. 

This is the big concern of the "games too easy" crowd. It can be divided into reward chasers and role-players. When everyone around them is exceptionally powerful, the role players feel as though their role is muted. Without feeling they bring something to the team, there isn't much reason to team, as it isn't fun for them anymore. And in regards to those reward chasers who desire to feel as if they have "earned" something, they will be forever starved, because progression to each meaningful reward was essentially guaranteed. Refer to the analogy above in regards to running with severe limitations. This isn't limited to Power Progression either; since homecoming began XP is offered extremely quickly, costume pieces are auto unlocked, emotes are default granted, etc. This is a boon for some, who have always disliked grinding. But it's also bad for others, who will quickly see it as boring.

 

There are precious few true "challenges" for those that have reach the readily accessible power ceiling. And, of those few challenges, none offer real reward (again unless you are a badge chaser or obsessive soloer). As a result, there is a part of the community who do not feel there is worth in majority of content, for they cruise along through the ranks of power easily on their own, and have no enjoyment from teaming because they feel useless in them.

[Dusty Longshot]

11 minutes ago, Monos King said:

...The process of getting to the point of being that powerful is easy, which is what's being examined here.

 

I agree (to a point) that this is the case with all the options the HC Dev's offer us to "power-level" a character. Think of 2XP, AE Farm's offered by others, DFB runs, +4/x8 PI teams, TF/SF's.

 

I'm guilty of PL'ing a few characters from 1 to 20 using 2XP and PI teams. So getting to 50 and getting Incarnates would be a breeze if I stick to that formula and hang out with those teams for about 12-16 hours (rough guess, not based on any facts). But that's my choice. I choose to take the "easy" route to 50.
Just like it is my choice to not take that route for other characters and stick with 1XP solo'ing every mission I get. Learning how my characters' powers work and fine-tuning the attack chain so I can handle 3-4 yellow/orange mobs with my level 9 Fire/Kin controller.

 

It's not so much that the game itself, or the process of becoming that powerful is easy.

It is the conscious choice of the player to take an easy route or challenging route to become powerful.

 

[Monos King]

22 minutes ago, retrobytz said:

It's not so much that the game itself, or the process of becoming that powerful is easy.

It is the conscious choice of the player to take an easy route or challenging route to become powerful

I agree with everything you've said, but I take a different conclusion from it. The fact that there is an easy route makes the game easy, and give the concerns of "games too easy" folks validity. Dominant Strategy, and all that.

 

Games that don't have an "easy mode" route of progression can't be called easy. Since we're talking routes and modes, let's use an example. If you look at another genre, like storymode console/PC games for instance, there are easy and hard modes. When you take something like Cuphead...

Spoiler

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuphead

There are difficulty levels. This game is widely considered to be very difficult though. Why? Because even the easiest setting, is quite challenging. Those that complete that and are now looking for more challenges might begin taking on harder difficulties, putting limitations, enduring longer encounters. But since even the starting level has real rigor, the game is considered "challenging." We don't have that here. 

 

In CoH, Easy Mode takes you straight to the end, is exactly as effortless as is eponymous, and will simply give you everything you need progression wise. And in CoH, hardmode (when you create it for yourself) gives you pretty much nothing. There is no benefit to taking the harder route, you can do everything you want without it, thus most will, and actually have to go out of your way to seek challenge during progression. And then, once almighty, you can come down and crush what would've been apart of the "hard route". So, the game is easy. Again, that's not to say that's bad - a lot of people appreciate this change in their increased age and busyness, but I would like to demonstrate it as truth.

Edited July 9, 2021 by Monos King

[Hew]

2 hours ago, Ghost said:

It is easy to get powerful.  Its equally easy to make what you do difficult (or challenging).

This is a strawman and misdirection.

 

What makes things more difficult is explicitly bounded by the constraints of powersets. Some powersets excel so much at what they do, pretty much anything you pair with them will be overly successful. Some powersets are so.... middle of the road? NOT middle of the road? that you have to work hard to gain the same ground as using the powersets that excel. 

 

That makes things lopsided, because the powersets that tend to excel do so because they were crafted with layered offense/defense/support in mind, or were so berserk off the deep end with their particular strength that sheer muscle will power you through. You have several powersets that are defined by one power, sometimes two, with the rest being relegated to MEH. Those sets are intrinsically powerful. Making the game challenging for those powersets or powerset combos will dramatically skew difficulty/challenge for those bringing more "unique" sets to the table.