What are you guys doing to revive PvP? A suggestion.

[SwitchFade]

The problem with pvp is two fold...

 

The toxicity of pvp players, generally

 

This game does not lend itself well to pvp, by and large

 

[Super Atom]

That's the mentality that got PvP killed the first time.

 

gonna edit because I'm gonna get myself banned. Just gonna excuse myself from this thread, PvE people complaining about PvP gets me going.

Edited July 19, 2021 by Super Atom

[Illy]

5 minutes ago, Super Atom said:

That's the mentality that got PvP killed the first time.

 

gonna edit because I'm gonna get myself banned. Just gonna excuse myself from this thread, PvE people complaining about PvP gets me going.

I'm not surprised that you think the people who still pvp in CoH are the "pvp" sort. The real pvpers left long ago. 

[Super Atom]

5 minutes ago, Illy said:

I'm not surprised that you think the people who still pvp in CoH are the "pvp" sort. The real pvpers left long ago. 

 

I'm aware. I watched it happen in real time as my super group and many others depleted of people because of bad suggestions and trying to appease PvE players. I don't PvP anymore, I'm just aware that people who don't like whats there are the worst people to take advice on how to fix it. PvP can't be solved by dangling shinnies or increasing XP on mobs or forcing people off a server to make the bad PvP take place in random zones instead of arena or PvP zones. It just plain cannot be solved at all, It's too late. So option B is to just make whats there comfortable so they keep enjoying it and focus on PvE instead.

Edited July 19, 2021 by Super Atom

[Glacier Peak]

The folks who are a part of this community who spend their free time testing and restesting incremental changes to improve the balance of PvP encounters deserve a tip of the hat. It's not an easy task as it's been made to seem in this thread, it's not a click or exclusive group. Literally folks who know a lot about how the game's mechanics work and have the capacity and interest to get groups together to test out changes in different environments like zone or arena. Perhaps if you elect to contribute to this process, you'll find the improvement you're seeking.

[Illy]

22 minutes ago, Super Atom said:

 

I'm aware. I watched it happen in real time as my super group and many others depleted of people because of bad suggestions and trying to appease PvE players. I don't PvP anymore, I'm just aware that people who don't like whats there are the worst people to take advice on how to fix it. PvP can't be solved by dangling shinnies or increasing XP on mobs or forcing people off a server to make the bad PvP take place in random zones instead of arena or PvP zones. It just plain cannot be solved at all, It's too late. So option B is to just make whats there comfortable so they keep enjoying it and focus on PvE instead.

 

This is fair, I'll concede to most of these points. I was surprised to see how few players were online tonight in general. Even if the most attractive pvp system imaginable were devised, there probably aren't enough players around anymore to make anything of it. 

[Super Atom]

2 minutes ago, Illy said:

 

This is fair, I'll concede to most of these points. I was surprised to see how few players were online tonight in general. Even if the most attractive pvp system imaginable were devised, there probably aren't enough players around anymore to make anything of it. 

 

You should check out the PvP forums and discord areas, they have events and all kinds of inclusive stuff. I may not PvP anymore but they do their best to be inclusive and try to make the best of it. You can get some really good insight on the current community and the direction in general.

Edited July 19, 2021 by Super Atom

[America's Angel]

A better idea would be having dedicated PvP CRs/GMs who actively promote and run Official Homecoming PvP events for the PvP community.

 

Right now, no-one is doing it.

 

(Kudos to GM Smalls for helping out player-run events, though! )

[Greycat]

There's ... a lot, right now, that keeps people out of PVP (and kind of keeps getting worse about it.)

 

Back when COV came up, I kind of loved zone PVP. I was on Pinnacle, mostly - not "the PVP server," by any means. Nor was Victory. Yet we could have multiple teams going at it and it was fun. Yes, people complained, as well. Stalkers were "unfair" and the like (no, they weren't.) There *were* some issues. But honestly, it was approachable and *fun.*  Most "problems" could just be handled by having a team in zone.

 

Then we got IOs, and it went from "approachable" to "spend time and money on a build."

 

Then we had I13 and all the mess that came with *that,* which cratered the PVP population - which, as I recall, very much felt like their suggestions and viewpoints were very much *not* being listened to. *And* the changes made PVP - at least zone PVP - into having to learn a completely different environment. Haul a tank in there, for instance, and suddenly you're getting mezzed? Heal decay? Yes, it's been tweaked, but still... That population never really recovered.  PVP was down to a tiny percent of people, and they (live) mostly congregated on Freedom just to *find* each other, as I recall. Hard to PVP without other Ps to V.

 

The other thing, frankly, is COH culturally. Yes, PVP was planned since before release. The devs talk about it. It wasn't in game at launch, it only showed up in arenas - so PVP didn't really get to be part of its DNA. (Aside from the problems of balancing not just *ATs* but *powerset combos.* It's one thing when you have "fighter at level with gear," it's another when a "controller" can mean a hundred different things to face.) People complained when the Arenas launched because they didn't feel "Heroes fighting other heroes didn't feel right."

 

You'd think COV would fix that, but ... no. COH had kind of decided it was cooperative, and PVP by its nature doesn't feel like it fits with that.

 

Plus people felt very negatively against being "suckered into" zones (something I still disagree with, frankly, as there's nothing in a PVP zone needed for anything in the rest of the game, but that's a wholly different argument.) The only thing I agreed with there was moving the warzone contact outside the war zone for the people who wanted absolutely nothing to do with PVP, since it blocked getting other contacts at the time. But even "rewards" (badges, powers, etc.) don't bring people in to PVP. It doesn't make them want to PVP. It makes people who *don't* want to PVP cranky and just want to get things over with. If they're going for a PVP badge for (say) defeats? They'll find a quiet time, get with a friend and punch each other, then never come back.

 

TLDR? Make a server an open-world PVP server and they might as well take away the population/server load indicator. It won't be needed. It'd be so dead it won't even spawn zombies in october. Or to put it another way,

 

Quote

At this point, no alteration to the game for the purpose of reviving pvp would be too radical. What do you have to lose? Things could not be in a worse state. 

 

They would *definitely* be in a worse state if this were done.

 

[aethereal]

1 hour ago, Darmian said:

They already do it for Arena stuff.  They collect the exploration badges in the PVP zones, grab whatever else is needed, like Gunner and so on, or take out so many pillboxes in RV etc, and then they're out.

 

Yeah, I'm suggesting stuff that actually makes you engage in PvP, not just exploration and PvE content in PvP zones.  Win X matches.  Win a 2v2, a 3v3.  Damage taken in PvP.  Time mezzed in PvP.  Fight 6 distinct globals in PvP.

 

And, to be clear, I'm sure that a large number of badge hunters would try to do the content in the most expedient manner possible and never come back to it.  Some people just aren't going to enjoy PvP, and that's okay.  But something like this might encourage some folks to try it out and they might find they like it.

[Illy]

25 minutes ago, Super Atom said:

 

You should check out the PvP forums and discord areas, they have events and all kinds of inclusive stuff. I may not PvP anymore but they do their best to be inclusive and try to make the best of it. You can get some really good insight on the current community and the direction in general.

 

I'll do that, thanks for the suggestion. 

[Darmian]

5 minutes ago, aethereal said:

 

Yeah, I'm suggesting stuff that actually makes you engage in PvP, not just exploration and PvE content in PvP zones.  Win X matches.  Win a 2v2, a 3v3.  Damage taken in PvP.  Time mezzed in PvP.  Fight 6 distinct globals in PvP.

 

And, to be clear, I'm sure that a large number of badge hunters would try to do the content in the most expedient manner possible and never come back to it.  Some people just aren't going to enjoy PvP, and that's okay.  But something like this might encourage some folks to try it out and they might find they like it.

No, I getcha. Maybe some would. But I was including Arena matches and number of PVP defeats in my example, I know they do that, hell I've got a Disruptor badge because a badger needed defeats and wanted help, and I reckoned if I was going to get killed 50 times I was definitely doing it back!

[Greycat]

A thought comes to mind -

 

In all the various server spinups and spinoffs the last few years, *has* anyone created a "world PVP active" server? Whether it's actually lasted or not. Groups have played with all the *other* switches, after all... if there's serious interest, I'd have expected someone to have done this already (or documented the attempt and what did or didn't let them do it.)

[Illy]

1 hour ago, Greycat said:

There's ... a lot, right now, that keeps people out of PVP (and kind of keeps getting worse about it.)

 

Back when COV came up, I kind of loved zone PVP. I was on Pinnacle, mostly - not "the PVP server," by any means. Nor was Victory. Yet we could have multiple teams going at it and it was fun. Yes, people complained, as well. Stalkers were "unfair" and the like (no, they weren't.) There *were* some issues. But honestly, it was approachable and *fun.*  Most "problems" could just be handled by having a team in zone.

 

Then we got IOs, and it went from "approachable" to "spend time and money on a build."

 

Then we had I13 and all the mess that came with *that,* which cratered the PVP population - which, as I recall, very much felt like their suggestions and viewpoints were very much *not* being listened to. *And* the changes made PVP - at least zone PVP - into having to learn a completely different environment. Haul a tank in there, for instance, and suddenly you're getting mezzed? Heal decay? Yes, it's been tweaked, but still... That population never really recovered.  PVP was down to a tiny percent of people, and they (live) mostly congregated on Freedom just to *find* each other, as I recall. Hard to PVP without other Ps to V.

 

The other thing, frankly, is COH culturally. Yes, PVP was planned since before release. The devs talk about it. It wasn't in game at launch, it only showed up in arenas - so PVP didn't really get to be part of its DNA. (Aside from the problems of balancing not just *ATs* but *powerset combos.* It's one thing when you have "fighter at level with gear," it's another when a "controller" can mean a hundred different things to face.) People complained when the Arenas launched because they didn't feel "Heroes fighting other heroes didn't feel right."

 

You'd think COV would fix that, but ... no. COH had kind of decided it was cooperative, and PVP by its nature doesn't feel like it fits with that.

 

Plus people felt very negatively against being "suckered into" zones (something I still disagree with, frankly, as there's nothing in a PVP zone needed for anything in the rest of the game, but that's a wholly different argument.) The only thing I agreed with there was moving the warzone contact outside the war zone for the people who wanted absolutely nothing to do with PVP, since it blocked getting other contacts at the time. But even "rewards" (badges, powers, etc.) don't bring people in to PVP. It doesn't make them want to PVP. It makes people who *don't* want to PVP cranky and just want to get things over with. If they're going for a PVP badge for (say) defeats? They'll find a quiet time, get with a friend and punch each other, then never come back.

 

TLDR? Make a server an open-world PVP server and they might as well take away the population/server load indicator. It won't be needed. It'd be so dead it won't even spawn zombies in october. Or to put it another way,

 

 

They would *definitely* be in a worse state if this were done.

 

This was a thoughtful response. PvP not being in the "dna" of CoH is probably a factor that can't be overstated. 

[Super Atom]

9 minutes ago, Illy said:

This was a thoughtful response. PvP not being in the "dna" of CoH is probably a factor that can't be overstated. 

 

It was never perfect, but what was there pre-issue 13 was beloved by the community in it and the community was fairly large. Zones were active, tournaments were filled easily and the boards were very alive. No games PvP is perfect, but at least it was alive and had no signs of slowing down until issue 13 happened.

 

I don't think It's fair to say it's not in the DNA because for many many people issue 3 - issue 13, it very much was the game.

Edited July 19, 2021 by Super Atom

[Bopper]

10 hours ago, Illy said:

My suggestion is to turn Indomitable into a world-pvp server.

Two reasons why this can't work. First, all the servers get pushed the same code. So what's on Excelsior will be the same on Torchbearer as will be the same on Indomitable. Second, forcing everyone who is on Indomitable for reasons other than PvP (it's an unofficial PvP server, after all) into a world-pvp is incredibly obtrusive. Many on Indomitable have already set down roots, formed friends, formed SGs, etc. So asking them to simply go where world-PvP isn't a thing would be unrealistic.

 

The closest thing that you could possibly achieve would be an opt-in PvP world. Something like going to Null the Gull to grant yourself a token that says, "Hey all, I'm down for open-world PvP. If you're like me, come at me". Perhaps this can turn you red and targetable to anyone else who opted in, but if you choose to team then you become friendly once again.

 

I think that idea could be a form of getting new people into PvP. If you're in Atlas Park and you see two players going at it, how fun would that be?  You're safe but you get to witness some cool action and you might get tempted to try it yourself. At that point, your foot's in the door to potentially become an active PvPer.

 

Now, there are plenty of techincal issues to consider. For instance,

• Just because you opt-in, it should be a fair fight. So perhaps you can only fight others who are within 3 levels of you (exemplar/side-kicking rules applied).
• You would need to make sure powers function properly (some use PvPOnly flag or isPvPMap? type of requirements...so some power data sweeps and code update may be needed for a seamless inclusion of open-world PvP).
• Some powers have very different rules for PvP as they do in PvE, such as different recharge times. Powers like that would need some special attention to ensure in open-world they function as intended. Perhaps an event trigger can be used that says you are in PvPCombat, so for the next few seconds the powers you use that have PvP rules will use them (Jaunt comes to mind).

[Marbing]

12 hours ago, Super Atom said:

 

It was never perfect, but what was there pre-issue 13 was beloved by the community in it and the community was fairly large. Zones were active, tournaments were filled easily and the boards were very alive. No games PvP is perfect, but at least it was alive and had no signs of slowing down until issue 13 happened.

 

I don't think It's fair to say it's not in the DNA because for many many people issue 3 - issue 13, it very much was the game.

So would an approvable change be to simply undo all the PvP changes from i13? 
 

I played PvP on live pre-i13 and it was fun, no matter what AT I played I felt like I could do something. I played a Grav/FF a lot troller back then in PvP and felt very useful! Now (especially in open world) it’s just blasters blasters blasters blasters and stalkers… you occasionally see an AT of a different type.

 

In Arena it’s a little different, but still Blasters dominate that too, unless you change it to fight club rules but now we are artificially adding our own rules to make things relevant… and fun.

Edited July 19, 2021 by th0ughtGun

[oedipus_tex]

I don't PVP but I always did kind of wish heroes and villains could enter zones "owned" by the opposite side, and thereby tacitly consent to PVP. They could be attacked but not launch the first strike. Before I ever played this game, when I just knew there was something called City of Heroes and City of Villains, that's how I assumed it would work. Even if it was just a few zones, like hazard zones. People more familiar with PVP in MMOs may have more experience with whether that sort of system ends up working out or is abusable/annoying.

[Myrmidon]

14 hours ago, America's Angel said:

A better idea would be having dedicated PvP CRs/GMs who actively promote and run Official Homecoming PvP events for the PvP community.

 

Right now, no-one is doing it.

 

(Kudos to GM Smalls for helping out player-run events, though! )

I nominate @America's Angel for the task.

[Super Atom]

1 hour ago, th0ughtGun said:

So would an approvable change be to simply undo all the PvP changes from i13? 
 

I played PvP on live pre-i13 and it was fun, no matter what AT I played I felt like I could do something. I played a Grav/FF a lot troller back then in PvP and felt very useful! Now (especially in open world) it’s just blasters blasters blasters blasters and stalkers… you occasionally see an AT of a different type.

 

In Arena it’s a little different, but still Blasters dominate that too, unless you change it to fight club rules but now we are artificially adding our own rules to make things relevant… and fun.

 

It's far too late to simply just revert. Even after Paragon added that option for arena it was far too late. Most pre-i13 PvPers are long gone so it's better to focus on the current system and group of PvPers.

 

Pre-i13 was doomed to fail due to IO power creep, with it being as easy as it is now and incarnates the system would have needed addressing eventually.

Edited July 19, 2021 by Super Atom

[Illy]

My next question is, if someone organized a once-weekly zone pvp night, perhaps on saturdays, do you there are enough players to make it worth it? Could it be popular?

[Illy]

13 hours ago, Bopper said:

Two reasons why this can't work. First, all the servers get pushed the same code. So what's on Excelsior will be the same on Torchbearer as will be the same on Indomitable. Second, forcing everyone who is on Indomitable for reasons other than PvP (it's an unofficial PvP server, after all) into a world-pvp is incredibly obtrusive. Many on Indomitable have already set down roots, formed friends, formed SGs, etc. So asking them to simply go where world-PvP isn't a thing would be unrealistic.

 

The closest thing that you could possibly achieve would be an opt-in PvP world. Something like going to Null the Gull to grant yourself a token that says, "Hey all, I'm down for open-world PvP. If you're like me, come at me". Perhaps this can turn you red and targetable to anyone else who opted in, but if you choose to team then you become friendly once again.

 

I think that idea could be a form of getting new people into PvP. If you're in Atlas Park and you see two players going at it, how fun would that be?  You're safe but you get to witness some cool action and you might get tempted to try it yourself. At that point, your foot's in the door to potentially become an active PvPer.

 

Now, there are plenty of techincal issues to consider. For instance,

• Just because you opt-in, it should be a fair fight. So perhaps you can only fight others who are within 3 levels of you (exemplar/side-kicking rules applied).
• You would need to make sure powers function properly (some use PvPOnly flag or isPvPMap? type of requirements...so some power data sweeps and code update may be needed for a seamless inclusion of open-world PvP).
• Some powers have very different rules for PvP as they do in PvE, such as different recharge times. Powers like that would need some special attention to ensure in open-world they function as intended. Perhaps an event trigger can be used that says you are in PvPCombat, so for the next few seconds the powers you use that have PvP rules will use them (Jaunt comes to mind).

 

Sounds like a good idea to me. It would make paragon city much more immersive to see heroes and villains battling it out every once in awhile. Giving players the option to "flag" themselves for pvp has had success in other games. 

[srmalloy]

16 hours ago, Illy said:

This was a thoughtful response. PvP not being in the "dna" of CoH is probably a factor that can't be overstated. 

In point of fact, CoH not having PvP was one of the things that attracted me to it back when I first started playing (May 8, 2004).

[Super Atom]

If you don't like PvP, don't PvP or engage with the PvP community.

 

It's really not a hard concept, truly.

[Ston]

I also think a lot of players don't PVP because there's no need to PVP. My suggestion would be to give some kind of reward system that incentivizes PVP. I don't think this would be feasible in zone PVP since PVP IO's drop in regular content now... so the challenge would be to make this into an instance. 

 

The Arena makes the most sense. Perhaps you could give a reward roll to the winner with rewards being based on the level range (rare salvage for lowbies, incarnate components for incarnates, etc). This would probably have to be limited to once per day so it doesn't get abused.

This was just a suggestion off the top of my head.. But I think the only way to increase PVP population is to make changes that are purely optional. Forcing PVP onto players on any server would be a horrible, horrible idea.