Earth vs Pylons?

[Greycat]

Just seeing someone else's post about a pylon simulator - thought I'd throw this out for build people who want a challenge. 

 

Make an Earth controller and see how well they can do vs. a pylon. 

Ground rules:

- Must be Earth Control primary. 

- Must be a controller. 

- I don't care about the secondary. 

- No Incarnates past Alpha - I'm interested in seeing what people can do with earth control, not the best lore pets and judgements. 😉 You can run Alpha to T4 if you want, sure. 

 

Doable? How silly can you get with it, build-gurus?

[Sovera]

Sounds like 'two and a half hours later...'

 

Because Earth paired with Controller never struck me as huge. Now, on Dominators...

[arcane]

Don’t you pylon guys feel the need for an additional guideline like “Must be build for general gameplay as opposed to being built exclusively for a pylon test”? Or is that assumed across the board already? Because obviously anyone can load up a few S/T attacks with procs, but I imagine the point is to achieve something good within a generally usable build.

[Greycat]

37 minutes ago, arcane said:

Don’t you pylon guys feel the need for an additional guideline like “Must be build for general gameplay as opposed to being built exclusively for a pylon test”? Or is that assumed across the board already? Because obviously anyone can load up a few S/T attacks with procs, but I imagine the point is to achieve something good within a generally usable build.

 

Don't ask me, I'm not a "pylon guy."

[arcane]

39 minutes ago, Greycat said:

 

Don't ask me, I'm not a "pylon guy."

Just asking because I could totally see someone setting up something impressive proc bombing Fossilize, Infrigidate, Seismic Smash, etc... but it’d be nice to know people are answering the request in good faith and actually making playable builds that don’t skimp on mitigation, AoE power, etc.

[skoryy]

I'm likely a month or two away from trying out Elec/Time vs pylon, I'll give you the deets if/when I complete it.

[Sir Myshkin]

Traditional Pylon Rules are No Insp, No Temps, No Lores, and if Judgement gets used call it out but typically most don't use Judgements. Back when I did the proc testing I actually ran Earth through paired with Dark Miasma and part of my field runs were how it performed running content/field operations and also how it performed (same build) against a Pylon to best simulate a full run of content.

 

This is the video from back then, it does use Ageless but that's simply because of endurance. I typically ran a lot of the builds with Ageless active to wash out endurance concerns to get max experiential feedback, incidentally Dark is actually pretty good on its own anyway.

 

 

Pylon goes down in about five minutes between Stony and I.
 

This was the build:

Spoiler

This Hero build was built using Mids Reborn 3.0.4.7
https://github.com/Reborn-Team/MidsReborn

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Level 50 Natural Controller
Primary Power Set: Earth Control
Secondary Power Set: Darkness Affinity
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leadership
Ancillary Pool: Stone Mastery

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Fossilize -- GhsWdwEmb-Dam%(A), GhsWdwEmb-Acc/EndRdx(13), Apc-Dam%(13), GldNet-Dam%(27), UnbCns-Dam%(29), GldJvl-Dam%(29)
Level 1: Twilight Grasp -- Pnc-Heal(A), Pnc-Heal/EndRedux(3), Pnc-EndRdx/Rchg(3), Pnc-Heal/Rchg(5), Pnc-Heal/EndRedux/Rchg(5), Acc-I(7)
Level 2: Stone Cages -- Rgn-Knock%(A), Rgn-Dmg/EndRdx(11), Rgn-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(25), Rgn-Dmg(37), Rgn-Acc/Rchg(37), PstBls-Dam%(37)
Level 4: Tar Patch -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 6: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(25)
Level 8: Kick -- Acc-I(A)
Level 10: Darkest Night -- EndRdx-I(A), EndRdx-I(11)
Level 12: Stalagmites -- SprWiloft-Acc/Conf/Hold/Immob/Sleep/Stun/Fear/EndRdx/Rchg(A), SprWiloft-Acc/Conf/Hold/Immob/Sleep/Stun/Fear(31), SprWiloft-EndRdx/Rchg(31), SprWiloft-Acc/Conf/Hold/Immob/Sleep/Stun/Fear/EndRdx(34), SprWiloft-Rchg/Dmg%(36), PstBls-Dam%(36)
Level 14: Howling Twilight -- RechRdx-I(A), PstBls-Dam%(15), ImpSwf-Dam%(15)
Level 16: Shadow Fall -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def(17), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(17), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx(19), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(19), ShlWal-ResDam/Re TP(23)
Level 18: Earthquake -- RechRdx-I(A), FrcFdb-Rechg%(31)
Level 20: Fade -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def/Rchg(21), ShlWal-Def/Rchg(21), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(23), Ksm-ToHit+(36), UnbGrd-Rchg/ResDam(40)
Level 22: Tough -- GldArm-3defTpProc(A), StdPrt-ResDam/Def+(48), HO:Ribo(48)
Level 24: Weave -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(40), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(50)
Level 26: Volcanic Gasses -- NrnSht-Dam%(A), GhsWdwEmb-Acc/EndRdx(27), GhsWdwEmb-Dam%(43), GldNet-Dam%(43), PstBls-Dam%(50)
Level 28: Soul Absorption -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 30: Maneuvers -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A)
Level 32: Animate Stone -- ExpRnf-Acc/Rchg(A), ExpRnf-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(33), ExpRnf-EndRdx/Dmg/Rchg(33), ExpRnf-Acc/Dmg(33), SlbAll-Build%(34), OvrFrc-Dam/KB(34)
Level 35: Hurl Boulder -- SprWntBit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(A), ExpStr-Dam%(39), GldJvl-Dam%(39), FrcFdb-Rechg%(39)
Level 38: Dark Servant -- CldSns-%Dam(A), CldSns-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(40), CldSns-Acc/Rchg(45), CldSns-ToHitDeb/EndRdx/Rchg(48)
Level 41: Fissure -- PstBls-Dam%(A), Ann-ResDeb%(42), ExpStr-Dam%(42), FrcFdb-Rechg%(42), SprFrzBls-Rchg/ImmobProc(43), SprFrzBls-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(45)
Level 44: Seismic Smash -- SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(A), Hct-Dam%(45), GhsWdwEmb-Dam%(46), TchofDth-Dam%(46), GldStr-%Dam(46), Mk'Bit-Dam%(50)
Level 47: Tactics -- GssSynFr--ToHit/EndRdx(A)
Level 49: Super Speed -- BlsoftheZ-ResKB(A)
Level 1: Containment
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Swift -- Run-I(A)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A)
Level 2: Health -- Pnc-Heal/+End(A), NmnCnv-Regen/Rcvry+(7), Mrc-Rcvry+(9)
Level 2: Stamina -- PrfShf-EndMod(A), PrfShf-End%(9)
Level 1: Prestige Power Dash -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Slide -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Quick -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Rush -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Surge -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run
Level 50: Intuition Radial Paragon
Level 50: Degenerative Core Flawless Interface
Level 50: Banished Pantheon Core Superior Ally
Level 50: Clarion Core Epiphany
Level 50: Support Core Embodiment
Level 50: Ion Core Final Judgement
------------

 

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[arcane]

8 hours ago, Sir Myshkin said:

Traditional Pylon Rules are No Insp, No Temps, No Lores, and if Judgement gets used call it out but typically most don't use Judgements.

So still within the rules: a build with no AoE’s and bad mitigation. There would be a point at which, the better the pylon time, the worse the build is at the rest of the game. Some test I guess.

[Bill Z Bubba]

1 hour ago, arcane said:

So still within the rules: a build with no AoE’s and bad mitigation. There would be a point at which, the better the pylon time, the worse the build is at the rest of the game. Some test I guess.

 

Ya know why I love claws so much? It's not the best at aoe or st damage but it's damn good at both and that's how I build all my characters. Pylon tests tell me one thing and one thing only and they're a perfect test for this one bit of information: how will I do solo against AVs and GMs? And since I build my characters and judge them based on how well they solo, this is an important piece of info.

 

This test specifically describes exactly what my st dps will be and allows me to judge from that where I should work on the character. If I know the st damage is going to be crap regardless of what I do, it allows me to instead focus on aoe or control or some other aspect of the character.

 

It's just one tool in the handbag but it's a very good tool for a solid bit of info.

[Doomguide2005]

2 hours ago, arcane said:

So still within the rules: a build with no AoE’s and bad mitigation. There would be a point at which, the better the pylon time, the worse the build is at the rest of the game. Some test I guess.

    All tests have their faults or limitations.  Understanding what those limits are to a test is important to interpreting the test and drawing conclusions about those results.

    Not sure where you draw the conclusion that poor mitigation would be present.  Pylons will hurt when they hit.  If you can't mitigate that incoming damage you will die and die repeatedly which in turn will significantly hurt your damage output.  And that's what Pylon testing is intended for.  Determining your dps.  Other tests and "challenges" test other aspects of a build.  Basically I'm echoing Bill Z's post.  It's one test for essentially one thing.  RWZ challenge tests another, Trapdoor tests other things, @Galaxy Brain's tests are looking at other parameters.  And all see their critics and discussions on merits or lack thereof.

Edited August 10, 2021 by Doomguide2005

[Sir Myshkin]

On 8/10/2021 at 9:50 AM, arcane said:

So still within the rules: a build with no AoE’s and bad mitigation. There would be a point at which, the better the pylon time, the worse the build is at the rest of the game. Some test I guess.

I don’t follow your rationalization of this statement. A build would need to be able to survive the pylon itself which isn’t exactly a casual task for most non-melee characters. The build I posted also takes most of its reasonable choices for AoE abilities and attempts to turn even its typically non-damaging ones into more useful effects as Controllers are typically an AoE-lite AT.

 

I already stated I tested that build not only at taking down the Pylon, but also in performance against normal gameplay at +4/x8 and did fine, so unless you had something more specific you’d like to discuss… ?

Edited August 13, 2021 by Sir Myshkin
mobile typing

[ZemX]

2 hours ago, Sir Myshkin said:

I don’t follow your rationalization of this statement

 

I gather they are saying such a build WOULD be within the rules, not that your build was like that.   It's a knock against the Pylon test.  

 

But the Pylon test is only supposed to be a test of raw DPS.  It's not even necessarily supposed to be about survival.  It's allowed to have external survival buffs as long as they don't buff anything that affects damage performance.  Presumably it's even allowed to have a pocket tank taunting the pylon so you can be built solely for damage.   All these conditions are usually mentioned when people post times so the times can have the proper context.

 

Some might think it's lame to have someone else protecting them from the pylon, but it's actually good information.  Knowing where the upper limit is for DPS means you know how much damage you're trading for survivability when you build for that instead.

[arcane]

5 hours ago, Sir Myshkin said:

I don’t follow your rationalization of this statement. A build would need to be able to survive the pylon itself which isn’t exactly a casual task for most non-melee characters. The build I posted also takes most of its reasonable choices for AoE abilities and attempts to turn even its typically non-damaging ones into more useful effects as Controllers are typically an AoE-lite AT.

 

I already stated I tested that build not only at taking down the Pylon, but also in performance against normal gameplay at +4/x8 and did fine, so unless you had something more specific you’d like to discuss… ?

I’m not talking about your build or your video. I’m only talking about what your rules technically allow. I have seen at least one example on these forums of a player repping a strong pylon time but clearly having no AoE’s in their build. What this means is that, at a certain point, a strong pylon time starts to literally mean your build is *worse*, and what I am asking you is why none of the “standard rules” try to address this. Because as long as they don’t, that’s a pretty big asterisk next to any amazing pylon time.

 

 

[arcane]

2 hours ago, ZemX said:

 

I gather they are saying such a build WOULD be within the rules, not that your build was like that.   It's a knock against the Pylon test.  

 

But the Pylon test is only supposed to be a test of raw DPS.  It's not even necessarily supposed to be about survival.  It's allowed to have external survival buffs as long as they don't buff anything that affects damage performance.  Presumably it's even allowed to have a pocket tank taunting the pylon so you can be built solely for damage.   All these conditions are usually mentioned when people post times so the times can have the proper context.

 

Some might think it's lame to have someone else protecting them from the pylon, but it's actually good information.  Knowing where the upper limit is for DPS means you know how much damage you're trading for survivability when you build for that instead.

Yep pretty much. My concern is that there is a tier of great pylon times that are attainable by literally having a bad build. And this puts a giant question mark on this test for me.

 

If I wanted to make a great Earth Control build vs max out my pylon time as Earth Control.... those could be two very different builds and I’m concerned that no one is talking about this caveat. What you have done, Myshkin, is probably create a great Earth Control build. But considering Greycat didn’t actually ask for the build to be *good*, I felt the need to bring up the problem I see with just asking for a pylon time.

 

My concern was simply that, if it were me, and I *really* had some urge to brag about a pylon time here, I could make all sorts of bad decisions to increase my build’s focus on single target DPS. Earthquake? Stalagmites? Who needs em?

Edited August 13, 2021 by arcane

[Doomguide2005]

     A legitimate concern.  I'm also fairly certain if the numbers produced were 'unusual' they'd shortly be fielding questions about 'what's your build?', 'what's your attack chain?' and similar questions, at least if posted in the Pylon thread.  In turn that would likely reveal why they had the numbers they had followed shortly by, to put it politely, why they were not following the intent of the test and it's rules (or simply a 'well sure but how does it do outside the Pylon test?).  There's a video more or less poking fun at this very thing of a MM obliterating a Pylon in about 9 seconds ... clearly buffing the living daylights out of all their pets with Super Team Imbuements including level shift version iirc and then unloading.  DPS through the proverbial roof but equally clearly not a serious Pylon test run.

[Greycat]

Wow, there's a lot of overthinking this. ;)

[Doomguide2005]

5 hours ago, Greycat said:

Wow, there's a lot of overthinking this. 😉

Well of course it's the Forums!

 

(And involves a topic involving a great of min/max and number crunching)

[arcane]

6 hours ago, Greycat said:

Wow, there's a lot of overthinking this. 😉

Just trying to make sure you don’t get hoodwinked or bamboozled 🙂

[Sir Myshkin]

On 8/13/2021 at 9:32 AM, arcane said:

My concern is that there is a tier of great pylon times that are attainable by literally having a bad build. And this puts a giant question mark on this test for me.

For the record it would've been far better served to have just been up front about this from the get go instead of beating around the bush 😉  As such I understand the sentiment you're (now) expressing and that's something that tends to get self-edited out as far as the typical hive-mind of the Pylon thread is concerned. An impractical approach is oft considered just that, impractical.

 

On 8/13/2021 at 1:37 PM, Doomguide2005 said:

There's a video more or less poking fun at this very thing of a MM obliterating a Pylon in about 9 seconds ...

 

Pretty much every Mastermind run is erroneous from the get-go sadly because pets scale up against the Pylon in combat unlike how they would against an actual AV so the conditions of the fight aren't "accurate" out of the box/portal/parachute/smokebomb.

 

[nihilii]

If you see a Pylon build you think is bad for general gameplay, chances are you could manage to reach 90% of the Pylon DPS it does with all the key powers it'd need for general gameplay.

 

Personally, I feel the "super Pylon build sucking at general gameplay" has always been sort of an urban legend. It's technically possible but not really practical. The large overlap with frequent Pylon posters and solo +4/x8 challenges hints very few people bother to wreck their builds for the sake of slightly more Pylon DPS.

[Sovera]

Yes, Nihilli is pretty spot on. Most of the time the ones who can't handle a pylon's damage are the squishies and some people will rely on purples to achieve a complete run. But the remainder of the time it is simply a case of 'I'd never play wihtout Clarion but I took Ageless' or 'I took Waterspout for the -res'.

 

Most of the time the usual concession for pylon runs is slotting the dubiously useful -res procs into the attacks that take them. A set that can have these will blow past all others which is why some combos were so broken. Bio Armor in particular adding to it. In actual gameplay my own tests told me their effects were pretty minimal compared to the largess in results they show on a pylon.

 

I digress. Anything that handles a pylon is going to be decently sturdy even if not super min maxed for survival.