Greycat Posted August 9, 2021 Share Posted August 9, 2021 Just seeing someone else's post about a pylon simulator - thought I'd throw this out for build people who want a challenge. Make an Earth controller and see how well they can do vs. a pylon. Ground rules: - Must be Earth Control primary. - Must be a controller. - I don't care about the secondary. - No Incarnates past Alpha - I'm interested in seeing what people can do with earth control, not the best lore pets and judgements. 😉 You can run Alpha to T4 if you want, sure. Doable? How silly can you get with it, build-gurus? 1 Done with the Kheld "community" here. Since they obviously don't care about anything lore wise and crap on people who do. Kheld backstory guide might be uploaded in a non-Homecoming location when I finish the revision. No, it may not be put on the HC wiki, and what was there of my first one has been removed. Please do not reupload. I'm not giving the people here the benefit of the work just to be crapped on and told "lol, lore for a lore based AT, doesn't matter, f you." (Note, this refers to the playerbase, not the devs.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sovera Posted August 9, 2021 Share Posted August 9, 2021 Sounds like 'two and a half hours later...' Because Earth paired with Controller never struck me as huge. Now, on Dominators... - Simple guide for newcomers. - Money making included among other things. - Tanker Fire Armor: the Turtle, the Allrounder, the Dragon, and compilation of Fire Armor builds. - Tanker Stone Armor: beginner friendly (near) immortal Tanker for leveling/end-game and Stone Armor framework. - Brute Rad/Stone and compilation of Brute Stone Armor builds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arcane Posted August 9, 2021 Share Posted August 9, 2021 Don’t you pylon guys feel the need for an additional guideline like “Must be build for general gameplay as opposed to being built exclusively for a pylon test”? Or is that assumed across the board already? Because obviously anyone can load up a few S/T attacks with procs, but I imagine the point is to achieve something good within a generally usable build. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greycat Posted August 9, 2021 Author Share Posted August 9, 2021 37 minutes ago, arcane said: Don’t you pylon guys feel the need for an additional guideline like “Must be build for general gameplay as opposed to being built exclusively for a pylon test”? Or is that assumed across the board already? Because obviously anyone can load up a few S/T attacks with procs, but I imagine the point is to achieve something good within a generally usable build. Don't ask me, I'm not a "pylon guy." Done with the Kheld "community" here. Since they obviously don't care about anything lore wise and crap on people who do. Kheld backstory guide might be uploaded in a non-Homecoming location when I finish the revision. No, it may not be put on the HC wiki, and what was there of my first one has been removed. Please do not reupload. I'm not giving the people here the benefit of the work just to be crapped on and told "lol, lore for a lore based AT, doesn't matter, f you." (Note, this refers to the playerbase, not the devs.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arcane Posted August 9, 2021 Share Posted August 9, 2021 39 minutes ago, Greycat said: Don't ask me, I'm not a "pylon guy." Just asking because I could totally see someone setting up something impressive proc bombing Fossilize, Infrigidate, Seismic Smash, etc... but it’d be nice to know people are answering the request in good faith and actually making playable builds that don’t skimp on mitigation, AoE power, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skoryy Posted August 9, 2021 Share Posted August 9, 2021 I'm likely a month or two away from trying out Elec/Time vs pylon, I'll give you the deets if/when I complete it. Everlasting's Actionette Also Wolfhound, Starwave, Blue Gale, Relativity Rabbit, and many more! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Myshkin Posted August 10, 2021 Share Posted August 10, 2021 Traditional Pylon Rules are No Insp, No Temps, No Lores, and if Judgement gets used call it out but typically most don't use Judgements. Back when I did the proc testing I actually ran Earth through paired with Dark Miasma and part of my field runs were how it performed running content/field operations and also how it performed (same build) against a Pylon to best simulate a full run of content. This is the video from back then, it does use Ageless but that's simply because of endurance. I typically ran a lot of the builds with Ageless active to wash out endurance concerns to get max experiential feedback, incidentally Dark is actually pretty good on its own anyway. Pylon goes down in about five minutes between Stony and I. This was the build: Spoiler This Hero build was built using Mids Reborn 3.0.4.7https://github.com/Reborn-Team/MidsReborn Click this DataLink to open the build! Level 50 Natural ControllerPrimary Power Set: Earth ControlSecondary Power Set: Darkness AffinityPower Pool: SpeedPower Pool: FightingPower Pool: LeadershipAncillary Pool: Stone Mastery Hero Profile:Level 1: Fossilize -- GhsWdwEmb-Dam%(A), GhsWdwEmb-Acc/EndRdx(13), Apc-Dam%(13), GldNet-Dam%(27), UnbCns-Dam%(29), GldJvl-Dam%(29)Level 1: Twilight Grasp -- Pnc-Heal(A), Pnc-Heal/EndRedux(3), Pnc-EndRdx/Rchg(3), Pnc-Heal/Rchg(5), Pnc-Heal/EndRedux/Rchg(5), Acc-I(7)Level 2: Stone Cages -- Rgn-Knock%(A), Rgn-Dmg/EndRdx(11), Rgn-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(25), Rgn-Dmg(37), Rgn-Acc/Rchg(37), PstBls-Dam%(37)Level 4: Tar Patch -- RechRdx-I(A)Level 6: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(25)Level 8: Kick -- Acc-I(A)Level 10: Darkest Night -- EndRdx-I(A), EndRdx-I(11)Level 12: Stalagmites -- SprWiloft-Acc/Conf/Hold/Immob/Sleep/Stun/Fear/EndRdx/Rchg(A), SprWiloft-Acc/Conf/Hold/Immob/Sleep/Stun/Fear(31), SprWiloft-EndRdx/Rchg(31), SprWiloft-Acc/Conf/Hold/Immob/Sleep/Stun/Fear/EndRdx(34), SprWiloft-Rchg/Dmg%(36), PstBls-Dam%(36)Level 14: Howling Twilight -- RechRdx-I(A), PstBls-Dam%(15), ImpSwf-Dam%(15)Level 16: Shadow Fall -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def(17), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(17), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx(19), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(19), ShlWal-ResDam/Re TP(23)Level 18: Earthquake -- RechRdx-I(A), FrcFdb-Rechg%(31)Level 20: Fade -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def/Rchg(21), ShlWal-Def/Rchg(21), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(23), Ksm-ToHit+(36), UnbGrd-Rchg/ResDam(40)Level 22: Tough -- GldArm-3defTpProc(A), StdPrt-ResDam/Def+(48), HO:Ribo(48)Level 24: Weave -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(40), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(50)Level 26: Volcanic Gasses -- NrnSht-Dam%(A), GhsWdwEmb-Acc/EndRdx(27), GhsWdwEmb-Dam%(43), GldNet-Dam%(43), PstBls-Dam%(50)Level 28: Soul Absorption -- RechRdx-I(A)Level 30: Maneuvers -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A)Level 32: Animate Stone -- ExpRnf-Acc/Rchg(A), ExpRnf-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(33), ExpRnf-EndRdx/Dmg/Rchg(33), ExpRnf-Acc/Dmg(33), SlbAll-Build%(34), OvrFrc-Dam/KB(34)Level 35: Hurl Boulder -- SprWntBit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(A), ExpStr-Dam%(39), GldJvl-Dam%(39), FrcFdb-Rechg%(39)Level 38: Dark Servant -- CldSns-%Dam(A), CldSns-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(40), CldSns-Acc/Rchg(45), CldSns-ToHitDeb/EndRdx/Rchg(48)Level 41: Fissure -- PstBls-Dam%(A), Ann-ResDeb%(42), ExpStr-Dam%(42), FrcFdb-Rechg%(42), SprFrzBls-Rchg/ImmobProc(43), SprFrzBls-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(45)Level 44: Seismic Smash -- SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(A), Hct-Dam%(45), GhsWdwEmb-Dam%(46), TchofDth-Dam%(46), GldStr-%Dam(46), Mk'Bit-Dam%(50)Level 47: Tactics -- GssSynFr--ToHit/EndRdx(A)Level 49: Super Speed -- BlsoftheZ-ResKB(A)Level 1: ContainmentLevel 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)Level 2: Swift -- Run-I(A)Level 2: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A)Level 2: Health -- Pnc-Heal/+End(A), NmnCnv-Regen/Rcvry+(7), Mrc-Rcvry+(9)Level 2: Stamina -- PrfShf-EndMod(A), PrfShf-End%(9)Level 1: Prestige Power Dash -- Empty(A)Level 1: Prestige Power Slide -- Empty(A)Level 1: Prestige Power Quick -- Empty(A)Level 1: Prestige Power Rush -- Empty(A)Level 1: Prestige Power Surge -- Empty(A)Level 4: Ninja RunLevel 50: Intuition Radial ParagonLevel 50: Degenerative Core Flawless InterfaceLevel 50: Banished Pantheon Core Superior AllyLevel 50: Clarion Core EpiphanyLevel 50: Support Core EmbodimentLevel 50: Ion Core Final Judgement------------ | Copy & Paste this data into Mids Reborn : Hero Designer to view the build | |-------------------------------------------------------------------| |MxDz;1546;737;1474;HEX;| |78DA65945B4F135110C7CF6EB79696222D2D144A0BB4DC0A85C222EA9B46B905054| |342E22BD9C096566A4BB64B228926A2F10BF0E2372080898F469FFD1A3E88CA25DE| |201AA33E9875BAFF296DD2269BDF397366FE3367CE399D7F30E97D39B3755D48BE8| |99C562C2E4D14F2A651C8E574C3754733370C2D274A3F177D5D95B5B25B6A4A33CC| |4C7916AB72B8B9914EA72635632DAF93EA8D743A9BCF9A9BFED97C4637F4BC992A0| |F3C0B0592595CD7F595067B389D5DCD98D9FC6AA33D9BD3B515DD2866B2EB5E3816| |8C65DDD86C9A5ACF2EA716CD425E5F9AD78A26995AA9C2247D0F25C13FCB29EED34| |45584F71E53956D86A71C3623B3984786307F1FAA8AED824D8E30A3A0D2C1EC042F| |84C95D758B479442E258E92A743D57C0D671B0678C7999F95AD83CA0BC0EC40A471| |27A716AB9D316B42427DB5A99B20B2752F27785A1F18134DCECEF8EC1CFC37C4CF6| |7AAEAD7E1F7577EC3077C1D81ED8FD82C9B57D24DD06C4CA0D9CFF22AF5DDC21E1A| |8223E914F23723B1B9BD16B5F90E9039B7E41B7E90FD8721BDCA2653FF4257F12BA| |1DCFD09F43D20DB06E8075837EC9AE2138E3B0D912C0BCFB9FB06BE9FF0DBB831AD| |48C58B9790CB94642A877E41A99158750C827C43E21D6EF0F802AD7FD84D086FA94| |360DF161BE4F837CBF06F93EA9DC9723AABBDDBE0D9668E79EF9295794CF2CCAB99| |E123AF95C3A4FB1E7AE1FCC9FCC333036C13C40AE2F8438621DF17DC5B6F56D924F| |80C8F7B98FFB7842F5F4B26FEF898C3E1D834387E0C811F89542135C5382F733700| |CBD01D61F60DDC137C83BF40AFCEBC51B2CC526B7792D09DF61EED5F0122DF71313| |DCB3359C5B80FA93C25988D4AE8C3325DB28F76CF41D74C8B5FC46AD48655C9A5A9| |698ABB12C28E7EF5248B6E59B872C9C491AC60EBF57DB12B09D566CB214E3D77E17| |BBA8BB25D9BB38ABF848D2362AAC7BCEDDA9A965B4C6A2D6582ED558C66B2C6EDFF| |9FF85A5D0D9AAA8C09AAE1A7FEEA98CF7023466FFB7F1CAB82D58F1F90F5F3BFB0A| |-------------------------------------------------------------------| 1 Pylon Test Run Submission Proc Monsters (Controller Edition) Proc Monsters (Defender Edition) Pylon Test Run Results Proc Monsters (Tanker Edition) "Mad King Special" "Ceterum autem censeo Iram esse delendam" Mad King Special - Force Edition (NEW!) 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arcane Posted August 10, 2021 Share Posted August 10, 2021 8 hours ago, Sir Myshkin said: Traditional Pylon Rules are No Insp, No Temps, No Lores, and if Judgement gets used call it out but typically most don't use Judgements. So still within the rules: a build with no AoE’s and bad mitigation. There would be a point at which, the better the pylon time, the worse the build is at the rest of the game. Some test I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Z Bubba Posted August 10, 2021 Share Posted August 10, 2021 1 hour ago, arcane said: So still within the rules: a build with no AoE’s and bad mitigation. There would be a point at which, the better the pylon time, the worse the build is at the rest of the game. Some test I guess. Ya know why I love claws so much? It's not the best at aoe or st damage but it's damn good at both and that's how I build all my characters. Pylon tests tell me one thing and one thing only and they're a perfect test for this one bit of information: how will I do solo against AVs and GMs? And since I build my characters and judge them based on how well they solo, this is an important piece of info. This test specifically describes exactly what my st dps will be and allows me to judge from that where I should work on the character. If I know the st damage is going to be crap regardless of what I do, it allows me to instead focus on aoe or control or some other aspect of the character. It's just one tool in the handbag but it's a very good tool for a solid bit of info. 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doomguide2005 Posted August 10, 2021 Share Posted August 10, 2021 (edited) 2 hours ago, arcane said: So still within the rules: a build with no AoE’s and bad mitigation. There would be a point at which, the better the pylon time, the worse the build is at the rest of the game. Some test I guess. All tests have their faults or limitations. Understanding what those limits are to a test is important to interpreting the test and drawing conclusions about those results. Not sure where you draw the conclusion that poor mitigation would be present. Pylons will hurt when they hit. If you can't mitigate that incoming damage you will die and die repeatedly which in turn will significantly hurt your damage output. And that's what Pylon testing is intended for. Determining your dps. Other tests and "challenges" test other aspects of a build. Basically I'm echoing Bill Z's post. It's one test for essentially one thing. RWZ challenge tests another, Trapdoor tests other things, @Galaxy Brain's tests are looking at other parameters. And all see their critics and discussions on merits or lack thereof. Edited August 10, 2021 by Doomguide2005 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Myshkin Posted August 13, 2021 Share Posted August 13, 2021 (edited) On 8/10/2021 at 9:50 AM, arcane said: So still within the rules: a build with no AoE’s and bad mitigation. There would be a point at which, the better the pylon time, the worse the build is at the rest of the game. Some test I guess. I don’t follow your rationalization of this statement. A build would need to be able to survive the pylon itself which isn’t exactly a casual task for most non-melee characters. The build I posted also takes most of its reasonable choices for AoE abilities and attempts to turn even its typically non-damaging ones into more useful effects as Controllers are typically an AoE-lite AT. I already stated I tested that build not only at taking down the Pylon, but also in performance against normal gameplay at +4/x8 and did fine, so unless you had something more specific you’d like to discuss… ? Edited August 13, 2021 by Sir Myshkin mobile typing Pylon Test Run Submission Proc Monsters (Controller Edition) Proc Monsters (Defender Edition) Pylon Test Run Results Proc Monsters (Tanker Edition) "Mad King Special" "Ceterum autem censeo Iram esse delendam" Mad King Special - Force Edition (NEW!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZemX Posted August 13, 2021 Share Posted August 13, 2021 2 hours ago, Sir Myshkin said: I don’t follow your rationalization of this statement I gather they are saying such a build WOULD be within the rules, not that your build was like that. It's a knock against the Pylon test. But the Pylon test is only supposed to be a test of raw DPS. It's not even necessarily supposed to be about survival. It's allowed to have external survival buffs as long as they don't buff anything that affects damage performance. Presumably it's even allowed to have a pocket tank taunting the pylon so you can be built solely for damage. All these conditions are usually mentioned when people post times so the times can have the proper context. Some might think it's lame to have someone else protecting them from the pylon, but it's actually good information. Knowing where the upper limit is for DPS means you know how much damage you're trading for survivability when you build for that instead. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arcane Posted August 13, 2021 Share Posted August 13, 2021 5 hours ago, Sir Myshkin said: I don’t follow your rationalization of this statement. A build would need to be able to survive the pylon itself which isn’t exactly a casual task for most non-melee characters. The build I posted also takes most of its reasonable choices for AoE abilities and attempts to turn even its typically non-damaging ones into more useful effects as Controllers are typically an AoE-lite AT. I already stated I tested that build not only at taking down the Pylon, but also in performance against normal gameplay at +4/x8 and did fine, so unless you had something more specific you’d like to discuss… ? I’m not talking about your build or your video. I’m only talking about what your rules technically allow. I have seen at least one example on these forums of a player repping a strong pylon time but clearly having no AoE’s in their build. What this means is that, at a certain point, a strong pylon time starts to literally mean your build is *worse*, and what I am asking you is why none of the “standard rules” try to address this. Because as long as they don’t, that’s a pretty big asterisk next to any amazing pylon time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arcane Posted August 13, 2021 Share Posted August 13, 2021 (edited) 2 hours ago, ZemX said: I gather they are saying such a build WOULD be within the rules, not that your build was like that. It's a knock against the Pylon test. But the Pylon test is only supposed to be a test of raw DPS. It's not even necessarily supposed to be about survival. It's allowed to have external survival buffs as long as they don't buff anything that affects damage performance. Presumably it's even allowed to have a pocket tank taunting the pylon so you can be built solely for damage. All these conditions are usually mentioned when people post times so the times can have the proper context. Some might think it's lame to have someone else protecting them from the pylon, but it's actually good information. Knowing where the upper limit is for DPS means you know how much damage you're trading for survivability when you build for that instead. Yep pretty much. My concern is that there is a tier of great pylon times that are attainable by literally having a bad build. And this puts a giant question mark on this test for me. If I wanted to make a great Earth Control build vs max out my pylon time as Earth Control.... those could be two very different builds and I’m concerned that no one is talking about this caveat. What you have done, Myshkin, is probably create a great Earth Control build. But considering Greycat didn’t actually ask for the build to be *good*, I felt the need to bring up the problem I see with just asking for a pylon time. My concern was simply that, if it were me, and I *really* had some urge to brag about a pylon time here, I could make all sorts of bad decisions to increase my build’s focus on single target DPS. Earthquake? Stalagmites? Who needs em? Edited August 13, 2021 by arcane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doomguide2005 Posted August 13, 2021 Share Posted August 13, 2021 A legitimate concern. I'm also fairly certain if the numbers produced were 'unusual' they'd shortly be fielding questions about 'what's your build?', 'what's your attack chain?' and similar questions, at least if posted in the Pylon thread. In turn that would likely reveal why they had the numbers they had followed shortly by, to put it politely, why they were not following the intent of the test and it's rules (or simply a 'well sure but how does it do outside the Pylon test?). There's a video more or less poking fun at this very thing of a MM obliterating a Pylon in about 9 seconds ... clearly buffing the living daylights out of all their pets with Super Team Imbuements including level shift version iirc and then unloading. DPS through the proverbial roof but equally clearly not a serious Pylon test run. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greycat Posted August 14, 2021 Author Share Posted August 14, 2021 Wow, there's a lot of overthinking this. ;) 1 Done with the Kheld "community" here. Since they obviously don't care about anything lore wise and crap on people who do. Kheld backstory guide might be uploaded in a non-Homecoming location when I finish the revision. No, it may not be put on the HC wiki, and what was there of my first one has been removed. Please do not reupload. I'm not giving the people here the benefit of the work just to be crapped on and told "lol, lore for a lore based AT, doesn't matter, f you." (Note, this refers to the playerbase, not the devs.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doomguide2005 Posted August 14, 2021 Share Posted August 14, 2021 5 hours ago, Greycat said: Wow, there's a lot of overthinking this. 😉 Well of course it's the Forums! (And involves a topic involving a great of min/max and number crunching) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arcane Posted August 14, 2021 Share Posted August 14, 2021 6 hours ago, Greycat said: Wow, there's a lot of overthinking this. 😉 Just trying to make sure you don’t get hoodwinked or bamboozled 🙂 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Myshkin Posted August 15, 2021 Share Posted August 15, 2021 On 8/13/2021 at 9:32 AM, arcane said: My concern is that there is a tier of great pylon times that are attainable by literally having a bad build. And this puts a giant question mark on this test for me. For the record it would've been far better served to have just been up front about this from the get go instead of beating around the bush 😉 As such I understand the sentiment you're (now) expressing and that's something that tends to get self-edited out as far as the typical hive-mind of the Pylon thread is concerned. An impractical approach is oft considered just that, impractical. On 8/13/2021 at 1:37 PM, Doomguide2005 said: There's a video more or less poking fun at this very thing of a MM obliterating a Pylon in about 9 seconds ... Pretty much every Mastermind run is erroneous from the get-go sadly because pets scale up against the Pylon in combat unlike how they would against an actual AV so the conditions of the fight aren't "accurate" out of the box/portal/parachute/smokebomb. 2 1 Pylon Test Run Submission Proc Monsters (Controller Edition) Proc Monsters (Defender Edition) Pylon Test Run Results Proc Monsters (Tanker Edition) "Mad King Special" "Ceterum autem censeo Iram esse delendam" Mad King Special - Force Edition (NEW!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nihilii Posted August 15, 2021 Share Posted August 15, 2021 If you see a Pylon build you think is bad for general gameplay, chances are you could manage to reach 90% of the Pylon DPS it does with all the key powers it'd need for general gameplay. Personally, I feel the "super Pylon build sucking at general gameplay" has always been sort of an urban legend. It's technically possible but not really practical. The large overlap with frequent Pylon posters and solo +4/x8 challenges hints very few people bother to wreck their builds for the sake of slightly more Pylon DPS. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sovera Posted August 15, 2021 Share Posted August 15, 2021 Yes, Nihilli is pretty spot on. Most of the time the ones who can't handle a pylon's damage are the squishies and some people will rely on purples to achieve a complete run. But the remainder of the time it is simply a case of 'I'd never play wihtout Clarion but I took Ageless' or 'I took Waterspout for the -res'. Most of the time the usual concession for pylon runs is slotting the dubiously useful -res procs into the attacks that take them. A set that can have these will blow past all others which is why some combos were so broken. Bio Armor in particular adding to it. In actual gameplay my own tests told me their effects were pretty minimal compared to the largess in results they show on a pylon. I digress. Anything that handles a pylon is going to be decently sturdy even if not super min maxed for survival. - Simple guide for newcomers. - Money making included among other things. - Tanker Fire Armor: the Turtle, the Allrounder, the Dragon, and compilation of Fire Armor builds. - Tanker Stone Armor: beginner friendly (near) immortal Tanker for leveling/end-game and Stone Armor framework. - Brute Rad/Stone and compilation of Brute Stone Armor builds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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