Another round of VEAT suggestions - Night Widow specific

[Razor Cure]

8 minutes ago, Vanden said:

Speak of the devil, it’s the exact attitude that led to VEATs having a smoke-and-mirrors inherent in the first place.

 

What attitude? Honestly confused since in an early pose you talk about their Inherent, and now you are calling it their base stats. The inherent for all ATs are not base stats, or Doms would have perma dom from level one, scrappers always critting etc etc.

Even if the regen/rec 'boost' was their base, it is apparently so low as to be basically worthless.

[Vanden]

48 minutes ago, Razor Cure said:

What attitude?

 

That an AT has to have an inherent. I was just observing that when you heard they just have higher base stats your very first thought was, “Well then they should get a real inherent, shouldn’t they?”

[KaizenSoze]

18 hours ago, Vanden said:

 

That an AT has to have an inherent. I was just observing that when you heard they just have higher base stats your very first thought was, “Well then they should get a real inherent, shouldn’t they?”

So, what are Night Widows to do?

 

I read through your endurance cheat sheet. Obviously, you have put a lot of thought into endurance management.

 

In my personal recent experience, it is very obvious that endurance is major weakness.

 

What thoughts do you have to mitigate these issues?

 

Are there tweaks or improvements you would agree some VEATs need? Besides the obvious redraw and weapon customization.

Edited September 1, 2021 by KaizenSoze

[Vanden]

15 hours ago, KaizenSoze said:

In my personal recent experience, it is very obvious that endurance is major weakness.

 

What thoughts do you have to mitigate these issues?

 

Are there tweaks or improvements you would agree some VEATs need? Besides the obvious redraw and weapon customization.

 

Every AT has endurance issues, to an extent, with the exception of Blasters after 20. It's an intended problem that the player is supposed to solve when building their character. Are VEATs' issues with endurance worse than any other non-Blaster AT? It's not impossible. I definitely had endurance problems leveling my Bane Spider, but I eventually solved them. if you want to prove that VEATs have it worse than other ATs, you could put together some charts like I made in this post here to try to get a picture of how much endurance VEATs spend in a minute, compared to other sets.

 

I think that for the most part, Bane Spiders' issues are not Night Widows' issues, which are not Fortunatas' issues, etc., so changes should be targeted at the specific powers they have. Changing the inherent will affect all four branches, but I don't think all four branches are in the same spot.

[KaizenSoze]

1 hour ago, Vanden said:

 

Every AT has endurance issues, to an extent, with the exception of Blasters after 20. It's an intended problem that the player is supposed to solve when building their character. Are VEATs' issues with endurance worse than any other non-Blaster AT? It's not impossible. I definitely had endurance problems leveling my Bane Spider, but I eventually solved them. if you want to prove that VEATs have it worse than other ATs, you could put together some charts like I made in this post here to try to get a picture of how much endurance VEATs spend in a minute, compared to other sets.

 

I think that for the most part, Bane Spiders' issues are not Night Widows' issues, which are not Fortunatas' issues, etc., so changes should be targeted at the specific powers they have. Changing the inherent will affect all four branches, but I don't think all four branches are in the same spot.

 

At 50.

 

You are correct about Banes not having endurance issues. It is possible to have issues, but you have to heavily proc every attack.

 

Fortunatas are generally stable, but they can have issues. I think it's because their attack chain is slower.

 

Night Widows are just end hogs, claw attack are so quick. They just drink end.

 

Leveling Forts and NW is incredibly painful because of endurance and for other reasons mentioned in my OP.

 

I was thinking about putting together some videos of mean time to end failure against the training dummies.

Edited September 1, 2021 by KaizenSoze

[Razor Cure]

On 9/1/2021 at 8:48 AM, Vanden said:

That an AT has to have an inherent.

Well..dont they? I mean EVERY other AT before VEATs had one. Admittedly those have been tweaked, but they have mostly always been there. AN inherent is a chance to make the AT unique and characterful (is that a word? it is now!) and do or get access to something no other AT can.

 

On 9/2/2021 at 3:55 AM, Vanden said:

Every AT has endurance issues, to an extent, with the exception of Blasters after 20.

Exactly. Hence my very first comment in the thread, saying EVERY single AT should get a bit of an end/rec boost. It seems unfair that one single AT just..never (well mostly) has end problems, on the AT with the least amount of toggles no less!

 

CHampions had an Energy Building mechanic built into some attacks, that worked well as a way to keep fighting and doing stuff. I can see that providing a boost to every AT, in tier 1 attack powers (so early controls as well as attack powers). That would have almost no effect on ATs that already have minor end issues (blasters and those melee sets with +rec) but be a godsend to others.

Or how about just making missed ST attacks refund half or a % of end used on them? This would be awesome, even if it was just active pre level 20.

[Vanden]

1 hour ago, Razor Cure said:

Well..dont they? I mean EVERY other AT before VEATs had one.

 

You're just proving my point.

 

1 hour ago, Razor Cure said:

AN inherent is a chance to make the AT unique and characterful (is that a word? it is now!) and do or get access to something no other AT can.

 

As Epic Archetypes, VEATs are already unique from the get-go with branching power sets no other AT gets.

 

1 hour ago, Razor Cure said:

Hence my very first comment in the thread, saying EVERY single AT should get a bit of an end/rec boost.

 

No thanks to further homogenizing the game.

 

1 hour ago, Razor Cure said:

It seems unfair that one single AT just..never (well mostly) has end problems, on the AT with the least amount of toggles no less!

 

Not really sure what your point about toggles is, since they're generally one of, if not the smallest portion of any character's end costs. Usually the only things that cost you less end than toggles are situational powers you don't use off recharge.

Edited September 3, 2021 by Vanden

[Wavicle]

Considering how crazy powerful my NW is I cannot support these suggestions.

[MoonSheep]

On 9/1/2021 at 2:02 AM, KaizenSoze said:

So, what are Night Widows to do?

 

I read through your endurance cheat sheet. Obviously, you have put a lot of thought into endurance management.

 

In my personal recent experience, it is very obvious that endurance is major weakness.

 

What thoughts do you have to mitigate these issues?

 

Are there tweaks or improvements you would agree some VEATs need? Besides the obvious redraw and weapon customization.

 

team with people, use endurance inspirations, buy recovery temp powers

[Triumphant]

@KaizenSoze Part of the problem with Night Widows may be the very specific powersets.  Most AT's can have endurance issues, depending on the powerset combo you choose, as certain powersets are just more "endurance hoggish", if you will.  This can be offset by carefully considering your primary and secondary powersets and then filling in the gaps with endurance procs from the health and/or endurance sets.

 

But Widows are "locked in" to a choice of one base powerset and two branching choices.  So, you kind of get what you get and don't throw a fit (as it were).  It's always kind of put me off from trying them.  I have played Crab spiders a couple of times, but never really cared for the similar restriction in power choices.  Ditto for Peacebringers/Warshades.

 

I do think you should try to stuff all the endurance procs into your build that you can  afford (panacea, miracle, etc.), along with stuff like Numinas Convalescence and what not.  These really do help in a notable way that I think will surprise you.

 

Or (and I realize, this is not really a solution to your specific problem) just play an energy blaster and perma Energize, as I do, and never worry about energy again (I run all toggles and have hover and fly turned on all the time and can cycle every attack power I have, repeatedly, and my endurance bar hardly moves.  (Okay... maybe I'm just bragging, now.  Nevermind.  Anyway, blasters are horribly overpowered. 🤷‍♂️).

[KaizenSoze]

5 minutes ago, Triumphant said:

@KaizenSoze Part of the problem with Night Widows may be the very specific powersets.  Most AT's can have endurance issues, depending on the powerset combo you choose, as certain powersets are just more "endurance hoggish", if you will.  This can be offset by carefully considering your primary and secondary powersets and then filling in the gaps with endurance procs from the health and/or endurance sets.

 

But Widows are "locked in" to a choice of one base powerset and two branching choices.  So, you kind of get what you get and don't throw a fit (as it were).  It's always kind of put me off from trying them.  I have played Crab spiders a couple of times, but never really cared for the similar restriction in power choices.  Ditto for Peacebringers/Warshades.

 

I do think you should try to stuff all the endurance procs into your build that you can  afford (panacea, miracle, etc.), along with stuff like Numinas Convalescence and what not.  These really do help in a notable way that I think will surprise you.

 

Or (and I realize, this is not really a solution to your specific problem) just play an energy blaster and perma Energize, as I do, and never worry about energy again (I run all toggles and have hover and fly turned on all the time and can cycle every attack power I have, repeatedly, and my endurance bar hardly moves.  (Okay... maybe I'm just bragging, now.  Nevermind.  Anyway, blasters are horribly overpowered. 🤷‍♂️).

 I have all the health recovery pieces, stamina endurance recovery pieces, and accolades.

 

 I have 3.39% end recovery per sec. The SG recovery buffs only raised it to 3.65%.

 

 My Bane has 3.3 end/sec and I cannot remember the last time he ran out of end.

 

  Widows, Fortunata also have this issue just slightly less, are end hogs.

 

  Yes, buffing end for VEAT would help Banes and Crabs that kinda don't need it. But who cares.

 

  I am not asking for something that would cause VEATs to become overpowered.

 

  VEATs are still 400% damage cap, low-no DDR, tied with Keldians for the lowest HPs of any melee ATs

 

  I did some quick tests against the training dummies using my single target chain.

 

  Claws/SR scrapper with physical perfection with a recovery rate of 3.23% e/s.

  Time to end failure with continuous attacks. 1:15

 

  Night Widow recovery rate 3.65%

  44 seconds to end failure with strike instead of eviscerate

  51 second with eviscerate. I think this is because evisceration's animation slows the DPS

 

  Honestly people need to actually try running a Night Widow. And if I am wrong and you can post your build to show me.

 

  I would be very happy to be proven wrong.

 

My build.

Spoiler

This Villain build was built using Mids Reborn 3.0.5.6
https://github.com/Reborn-Team/MidsReborn

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Black Magic Night Widow: Level 50 Natural Arachnos Widow
Primary Power Set: Night Widow Training
Secondary Power Set: Widow Teamwork
Power Pool: Flight
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Teleportation
Power Pool: Leadership
Ancillary Pool: Soul Mastery

Villain Profile:
Level 1: Poison Dart -- Acc-I(A)
Level 1: Combat Training: Defensive -- ShlWal-ResDam/Re TP(A)
Level 2: Strike -- SprSpdBit-Acc/Dmg(A), SprSpdBit-Dmg/Rchg(3), SprSpdBit-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(3), SprSpdBit-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(5), SprSpdBit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(5), SprSpdBit-Rchg/Global Toxic(7)
Level 4: Tactical Training: Maneuvers -- LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(A), LucoftheG-Def(13), LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(13), LucoftheG-Def/Rchg(15), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(15)
Level 6: Fly -- WntGif-ResSlow(A), WntGif-RunSpd/Jump/Fly/Rng/EndRdx(17)
Level 8: Follow Up -- TchofDth-Acc/Dmg(A), TchofDth-Dmg/Rchg(17), Mk'Bit-Dmg/Rchg(19), GldStr-Dam/Rech(19), Hct-Dmg/Rchg(21), GssSynFr--Build%(21)
Level 10: Indomitable Will -- TtnCtn-ResDam/EndRdx(A)
Level 12: Spin -- Arm-Dam%(A), Arm-Dmg(23), Erd-%Dam(23), Obl-%Dam(25), ScrDrv-Dam%(25), FuroftheG-ResDeb%(27)
Level 14: Combat Training: Offensive -- Acc-I(A)
Level 16: Hover -- Rct-Def(A), Rct-Def/EndRdx(27), Rct-ResDam%(29)
Level 18: Slash -- Hct-Dmg(A), Hct-Acc/Rchg(29), Hct-Dmg/EndRdx(31), Hct-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(31), Hct-Dam%(31), TchofDth-Dam%(33)
Level 20: Mask Presence -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A)
Level 22: Foresight -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def(33), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(33), GldArm-3defTpProc(34), UnbGrd-Max HP%(34), StdPrt-ResDam/Def+(34)
Level 24: Mind Link -- AdjTrg-Rchg(A), LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(36), LucoftheG-Def(36), LucoftheG-Def/Rchg(36), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(37), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(37)
Level 26: Eviscerate -- SprDmnofA-Acc/Dmg(A), SprDmnofA-Dmg/Rchg(37), SprDmnofA-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(39), SprDmnofA-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(39), SprDmnofA-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(39), SprDmnofA-Rchg/DmgFear%(40)
Level 28: Mental Training -- Flight-I(A)
Level 30: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(40)
Level 32: Psychic Scream -- Rgn-Dmg(A), PstBls-Dam%(40), Bmbdmt-+FireDmg(42), JvlVll-Dam%(42), Bmbdmt-Dam(42), PstBls-Acc/Dmg(43)
Level 35: Gloom -- Apc-Dmg(A), Apc-Dam%(43), CldSns-%Dam(43), Apc-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(45), Apc-Dmg/EndRdx(45), Apc-Acc/Rchg(45)
Level 38: Teleport Target -- Range-I(A)
Level 41: Dark Obliteration -- PstBls-Dam%(A), Bmbdmt-+FireDmg(46), Bmbdmt-Dam(46), JvlVll-Dam/End/Rech(46), CldSns-%Dam(48), PstBls-Acc/Dmg(48)
Level 44: Maneuvers -- LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(A), LucoftheG-Def/Rchg(48), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(50), LucoftheG-Def(50), LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(50)
Level 47: Tactical Training: Leadership -- HO:Cyto(A)
Level 49: Tactical Training: Assault -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 1: Conditioning | Hidden
Level 1: Brawl -- Acc-I(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Clr-Stlth(A)
Level 2: Rest -- EndMod-I(A)
Level 2: Swift -- Flight-I(A)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A)
Level 2: Health -- Mrc-Rcvry+(A), Pnc-Heal/+End(7), NmnCnv-Regen/Rcvry+(9), Prv-Absorb%(9)
Level 2: Stamina -- EndMod-I(A), PrfShf-EndMod(11), PrfShf-End%(11)
Level 6: Afterburner
Level 50: Ageless Radial Epiphany
------------
------------

 

 

 

[Ukase]

I'll say this: part of the end problem - at least with my level 50 widow that's weaker than a level 7 hellion - is the numerous toggles that are running to provide the incredible defense. 

Mask Presence: .14/s

Tactical Training: .12/s

Tactical Training Assault: .15/s

Indomitable Will: .21/s
Tactical Training Maneuvers: .14/s
Combat Jumping: .06/s

Personally, despite running .79/s of end - with my end recovery of 3.05/s, I don't worry about endurance unless I leave Super Speed and Sprint on - which I often do - because I like playing with them on. It's nice to "stick and move" when fighting. But, that's only possible with IO set bonuses. I don't think 2.54/s is quite enough for full attack chain button mashing. Generally, I find I need to have 2.00/s more than what my toggles cost to run. 

Mind you - this character doesn't have ANY of the accolades, as it leveled up on red side only and all we did was story arcs; not many tfs. 


Still, my issue with them is they can't punch their way out of a paper bag. They just suck. At least, mine did. 

[Triumphant]

Quote

 I would be very happy to be proven wrong.

 

@KaizenSoze  Well, based on the information in your latest reply, I'm not so sure that you are wrong.  That sounds pretty frustrating.  Sorry.  🤷‍♂️

 

Not to derail your topic, but I'm kind of having the same issue with my Ice/Inv/Ice Sentinel.  Cool powers.  A lot of fun to play.   He runs out of endurance frustratingly quickly, though, and I have him slotted up with endurance in Durability and Stamina + lots of endurance procs.  Ah, well, maybe it will get little better once I hit 50 and reshuffle my slots a bit.  🤔

[arcane]

1 hour ago, Ukase said:

I'll say this: part of the end problem - at least with my level 50 widow that's weaker than a level 7 hellion - is the numerous toggles that are running to provide the incredible defense. 

I’m pretty sure most of my characters run 8-12 toggles. Widows probably come out better than most, in fact, since they get cheaper versions of leadership toggles and have very little need for the pool versions.

 

And look at how tiny those individual toggle costs are!

Edited September 3, 2021 by arcane

[KaizenSoze]

54 minutes ago, Ukase said:

I'll say this: part of the end problem - at least with my level 50 widow that's weaker than a level 7 hellion - is the numerous toggles that are running to provide the incredible defense. 

Mask Presence: .14/s

Tactical Training: .12/s

Tactical Training Assault: .15/s

Indomitable Will: .21/s
Tactical Training Maneuvers: .14/s
Combat Jumping: .06/s

Personally, despite running .79/s of end - with my end recovery of 3.05/s, I don't worry about endurance unless I leave Super Speed and Sprint on - which I often do - because I like playing with them on. It's nice to "stick and move" when fighting. But, that's only possible with IO set bonuses. I don't think 2.54/s is quite enough for full attack chain button mashing. Generally, I find I need to have 2.00/s more than what my toggles cost to run. 

Mind you - this character doesn't have ANY of the accolades, as it leveled up on red side only and all we did was story arcs; not many tfs. 


Still, my issue with them is they can't punch their way out of a paper bag. They just suck. At least, mine did. 

I'll have to go back and check. Pretty sure my scrapper has higher toggle end usage.

 

If nothing else, because she runs Focus Accuracy which is .78 all by itself.

[Ukase]

1 hour ago, KaizenSoze said:

I'll have to go back and check. Pretty sure my scrapper has higher toggle end usage.

 

If nothing else, because she runs Focus Accuracy which is .78 all by itself.

I learned back on live to simply NEVER choose FA as a power simply because of the endurance. It's a great power - except for that end usage. 

[KaizenSoze]

7 hours ago, Triumphant said:

 

@KaizenSoze  Well, based on the information in your latest reply, I'm not so sure that you are wrong.  That sounds pretty frustrating.  Sorry.  🤷‍♂️

 

Not to derail your topic, but I'm kind of having the same issue with my Ice/Inv/Ice Sentinel.  Cool powers.  A lot of fun to play.   He runs out of endurance frustratingly quickly, though, and I have him slotted up with endurance in Durability and Stamina + lots of endurance procs.  Ah, well, maybe it will get little better once I hit 50 and reshuffle my slots a bit.  🤔

You should post your build to the Sentinel forums. My best guess is that you might be over proced.

 

Do you have the two end accolades? Ice Blast can be an end hog.

[Triumphant]

@KaizenSoze I don't have the accolades, yet.  Actually, the only character I have any accolades on is my Energy blaster.  But, yeah, it does seem to be an endurance hog.  Also, the attacks seem quite slow to recharge (though, given they are ice based, I suppose this makes sense).  I don't typically bother with hasten and LotG in my builds, but this may well prove to be the exception. 

 

Of course, quicker cycling through attacks just creates more endurance issues.  I may be doomed here. 😛

[KaizenSoze]

@Ukase

@Galaxy Brain

@Bopper
Tagging because I know you like this kind of analysis and you can point out what I did wrong. 🙂

 

TL;DR Night Widow claw attacks cost more end proportional to damage and recharge slower

 

Night Widows biggest strengths over other VEATs is there single target damage and quicker Mind Link.

 

Fortunately, I have a incarnate Claw/SR scrapper build for comparison purposes.

 

On this first pass I focused on single target damage. Using Carni's log parser:

 

Scrapper log:

https://www.carnifax.org/?uuid=88e7c9ef-5d2b-4a2f-8c81-27adc9e23495

 

Night Widow log:

https://www.carnifax.org/?uuid=dec6740f-d8bb-46ff-b7ce-bd61f476a69e

 

The target was a Rikti Pylon. Training dummies to not take damage, so that's not a good test.

 

Scrapper lasted 71 seconds to end failure doing 12100 damage.

Night Widow lasted 55 seconds to end failure doing 10120 damage.

That's a 16% damage difference. Night Widow single target is their strongest attribute offensively.

 

Why the difference? One I reason I see is that several NW single target attacks have high end usage proportional to damage.

Swipe 10% less base damage 30% more end. Recharge 4s vs 1.7s.

Strike 26% more base damage for 45% more end. Recharge 8s vs 3.2s

Follow up 16% less base damage for equal end. Recharge 12s vs 12s.

Biggest hitters, Slash vs Focus, 28% more base damage for 53% end. Recharge 16s vs 6.4s.

 

The difference in AOE is even worse at Spin 15.44 vs 9.15 end, Eviscerate 13.52 vs 8.87, and in the battle of the T9s Psychic Scream vs Shockwave is 17.32 vs 11.56 with a DPA difference of 68 vs 131.

 

I guessed that the reason was that VEAT attacks were copied from mobs attacks, but my initial look found the mobs attacks recharge quicker. So, I have no idea why VEAT attack attributes are set at these levels.

 

	Night Widow	Scrapper	DPA - Slotted at 50 NW vs Scrapper	Base End cost per attack. 50 NW vs Scrapper
Toggle End Usage per second	1.23	1.86
Recharge	176	157
Swipe DPA	87 w/o slots	95 w/o slots	111 vs 156	4.16 vs 2.91
Strike DPA	183 w/o slots	135 w/o slots	339 vs 375	7.47 vs 4.16
Follow Up DPA	84 w/o slots	100 w/o slots	191 vs 261	7.8 vs 7.8
Eviscerate DPA	167 w/o slots	249 w/o slots	383 vs 646	13.52 vs 8.87
Slash DPA Extreme	239 w/o slots		737	14.25
Slash DPA Moderate		165 w/o slots	448	5.59
Shockwave DPA T9		131 w/o slots	347	11.56
Psychic Scream DPA T9	68 w/o slots		254	17.32
Spin DPA	153 w/o slots	197 w/o slots	395 v 522	15.44 vs 9.15
Gloom DPA	118 w/o slots		324	10.66
Lunge DPA	191 w/o slots		436	9.48
Focus DPA		174 w/o slots	488	6.82

 

[Bopper]

56 minutes ago, KaizenSoze said:

TL;DR Night Widow claw attacks cost more end proportional to damage and recharge slower

The damage and endurance is almost always following the design formula.

 

 

You can check what the recharge of each power is and see what costs wrong endurance and/or what does wrong damage..

 

The endConstant is 0.65 and ATconstant is 0.80

Edited September 6, 2021 by Bopper

[KaizenSoze]

16 minutes ago, Bopper said:

The design formula for damage is almost always following the design formula.

 

 

You can check what the recharge of each power is and see what costs wrong endurance and/or what does wrong damage..

 

The endConstant is 0.65 and ATconstant is 0.80

Widow Swipe 2 * (.8 * 4 +1.8) * .65 * .8 = 5.1 actual 4.16

Widow Spin 2 * (.8 * 14 + 1.8) * .65 * .8 = 13.52 actual 15.44

 

I must be mis-calculating. The values are off both directions.

 

The key factor is the recharge. And Widows have longer recharge for many powers, which leads to higher end usage. Seems kind of counter intuitive.

[KaizenSoze]

Damage per endurance	Swipe	Strike	Follow Up	Spin	Lunge	Slash	Focus	Eviscerate	Gloom
Night Widow	21	19*	10	8**	20	19*	NA	12	9
Scrapper	33	32	13	22***	NA	30	25	28	NA
Tanker	16	15	15	10	NA	NA	12	13	9
Stalker	19	16	NA	NA	NA	15	12	15	NA

* Widow Strike and Slash are higher damage attacks than other ATs. This explains some of the difference.

** DPE for NW is Spin is awful 😞

*** Scrapper Spin is known to be an extreme outlier

 

I didn't chart Brutes because Fury makes it hard to calculate.

Scrappers are the clear damage per endurance champs, they also are tied with Stalkers for recharge.

Stalkers DPE kind of sucks.

 

I am a bit tired to do a complete break down, but Night Widows get the longest recharge for their attacks.

Swipe is 27% slower than the Scrapper/Stalker, 9% tanker/brute

Strike is 40% slower than the Scrapper/Stalker, 32% tanker/brute. but is a higher DPA attack

Eviscerate is 26% slower than the Scrapper/Stalker, 4% tanker/brute

 

The attacks are very random which is little or a lot slower than the other AT's version. Some of this is the NW version hits harder.

 

The two obvious problem attacks are Spin and Eviscerate, which have lower DPE and longer recharge than the Tanker version. Follow hits for less, but has the same recharge and end cost as the scrapper version.

 

Bringing those attacks endurance costs down would help.

 

@Vanden

I checked Bane vs Scrapper mace attacks. Banes get the same recharge/end cost for ever attack except Crowd Control which is more expensive on Banes 25% recharge/22% end. This explains why Banes don't the endurance issues of Night Widows.

 

[Vanden]

I think the source of the confusion is that you're looking at Claws powers, which famously don't follow the standard damage formula.

[KaizenSoze]

On 9/6/2021 at 9:44 AM, Vanden said:

I think the source of the confusion is that you're looking at Claws powers, which famously don't follow the standard damage formula.

Well, I guess that's it. No matter what I show, suggestion, or relate from personal experience. You are just going to stay everything is fine.

 

For all I know you were the god of VEATs on live, but I haven't been able to find any posts from you on the VEAT forum. User search is not very good.

 

My request at this point. Please, post your experience leveling a Night Widow on IOs, SO, then sets. Show me I am wrong and that everything is fine.

 

As I stated before I would be happy to be wrong. Personal experience does not show it.

[arcane]

46 minutes ago, KaizenSoze said:

Well, I guess that's it. No matter what I show, suggestion, or relate from personal experience. You are just going to stay everything is fine.

 

For all I know you were the god of VEATs on live, but I haven't been able to find any posts from you on the VEAT forum. User search is not very good.

 

My request at this point. Please, post your experience leveling a Night Widow on IOs, SO, then sets. Show me I am wrong and that everything is fine.

 

As I stated before I would be happy to be wrong. Personal experience does not show it.

What are you hoping to be wrong about? VEATs having end issues before 50? That describes like most characters in this game, so I don’t really see the point.