Trollers, Fenders and the Useless Abilities Could Get A Once or Twice Over

[Piecemeal]

Think of it this way. 

 

That guy is pretty stronk and will self destruct, killing literally everyone. 

 

You don't need a player with confuse, but by Gord its hilarious when you do. Otherwise, situational awareness suggests RUN!

 

You don't need sleeps, but when you accidentally aggro the whole room because you thought stealthing ahead was clever, you might have wanted it.

 

If you want to enjoy the content and the character isn't beefy? Run it at 35-51. Feeling spicy? 52. Wreckless? 53. Straight up Pete Davidson's Blackguard? 54.

[GraspingVileTerror]

Not to knock the wind out of @Cobalt Arachne or @Piecemeal's sails, but I think the sentiment expressed in the latter half of https://forums.homecomingservers.com/topic/31268-trollers-fenders-and-the-useless-abilities-could-get-a-once-or-twice-over/?tab=comments#comment-396430 is the direction I'd like too see the majority of the focus on in this.
Emphasis on it being experimental, and that this experiment will inform future decision-making.  And really putting it to the point that things like this be used to learn from.
 
But I do hope there's room for other experiments too.  There's more than one way to skin a Hydra Protean, as the saying goes.

[skoryy]

8 hours ago, Piecemeal said:

If you want to enjoy the content and the character isn't beefy? Run it at 35-51. Feeling spicy? 52. Wreckless? 53. Straight up Pete Davidson's Blackguard? 54.

 

Don't take this harshly, but given the expectations that everything at endgame runs at 54?  I have a feeling this gonna get drama spicy in-game.

[Sovera]

I personally don't even like +4. Fortunately I find +3 the cut off point since its where incarnates leave me. +5 is ridiculous and I don't even touch it with a ten feet pole after the few times I join ITFs while leveling. My hardest attacks doing double digit damage is in no way entertaining.

 

Which is mostly my problem with calling for higher difficulties. I just don't equate slogging slowly with double digit damage as difficult, I just equate it with slowness.

 

Difficult is more like my recent incursion into First Ward. Heck, even IOed to the eyeballs my Fire Tank just melted at a miserable +1x8 versus Shepherds. The problem with difficult is that is can be pretty binary. It's either too easy and nothing stops us (every other faction in First Ward) or so difficult it deletes me (Shepherds). Fortunately I was on a character with Ice Patch that allowed me to push the envelope.

 

But the (really) nice thing about CoH is that it comes built in with a gradient for that binary scenario. Shpherds too tough? Remove bosses from soloing. Lower to x6. Go to x0. Other games will just throw us into the content and then it's like, WELP! YOU NEED A CONTROLLER FOR THIS! Or X buff, or a healer, or etc.

[Piecemeal]

3 hours ago, skoryy said:

 

Don't take this harshly, but given the expectations that everything at endgame runs at 54?  I have a feeling this gonna get drama spicy in-game.

 

Everyone will know the score before joining. This TF is simply not built to solo easily at top difficulty.

[Blackbird71]

20 hours ago, Cobalt Arachne said:

That being said people who like things right where they are now shouldn't be worried either.
We're dedicated to ensuring that everyone can enjoy this game the way they like moving forward, there will be options to move the difficulty ceiling up for those who are looking for it, but the floor where it exists isn't moving.

 

 

19 hours ago, Cobalt Arachne said:

Fair enough! You're free to quote me on that when Page 3 goes to testing; I've been very explicit to ensure existing content's difficulty perimeters don't get impacted. Insofar as my new difficulty balancing work is concerned.

That being said, what I said doesn't apply strictly regarding brand new content or future self-contained new difficulty modes of existing content that might be created down the road.

 

 

What I'm reading here is that for those who enjoy the existing content at the current difficulty floor, things will remain the same.  However, those same players will not be able to participate in the new content at the same difficulty that they enjoy playing for the rest of the game.  This is disappointing, to say the least.

[Bionic_Flea]

I don't think you are reading it correctly, but time will tell. 

 

I have the feeling that something is coming to a test server near you Soon^TM!!  Once there, we will all have a chance to try it and give it the Goldilocks test.

[Linea]

Right now the Difficulty spread is

|----|

The proposed Difficulty spread is

|-----------|

The floor is not changing, the roof is being raised.   If you just blindly set "Roof" and then "jump without looking", then yeah, the landing is gonna hurt. 

[Blackbird71]

11 minutes ago, Linea said:

Right now the Difficulty spread is

|----|

The proposed Difficulty spread is

|-----------|

The floor is not changing, the roof is being raised.   If you just blindly set "Roof" and then "jump without looking", then yeah, the landing is gonna hurt. 

 

 

According to what CA said, it sounds more like this:

Right now the Difficulty spread is

|----|
The proposed Difficulty spread for existing content is

|--------|

The proposed Difficulty spread for new content is

   |------|

 

So yes, existing content will have the same floor, but it was specifically stated that this does not apply to new content.

[arcane]

1 minute ago, Blackbird71 said:

 

 

According to what CA said, it sounds more like this:

Right now the Difficulty spread is

|----|
The proposed Difficulty spread for existing content is

|--------|

The proposed Difficulty spread for new content is

   |------|

 

So yes, existing content will have the same floor, but it was specifically stated that this does not apply to new content.

You mean all content won’t cater to one specific subgroup of players? Blasphemy!

[GraspingVileTerror]

The problem with the ambiguous hype machine . . . loads of speculation, little of certainty.

Another element of a culture of secrecy.

 

And hey!  More content is cool, even content that only caters to a very particular subset of players.

I just hope we're able to have more diverse and inclusive content produced in tandem next time too.

[Blackbird71]

2 minutes ago, arcane said:

You mean all content won’t cater to one specific subgroup of players? Blasphemy!

 

It just seems contradictory to first say that "people who like things right where they are now shouldn't be worried," and "we're dedicated to ensuring that everyone can enjoy this game the way they like moving forward," but then state that these players will not be able to enjoy the new content "the way they like," and so there is reason for them to be worried.

[Arcadio]

1 minute ago, Blackbird71 said:

 

It just seems contradictory to first say that "people who like things right where they are now shouldn't be worried," and "we're dedicated to ensuring that everyone can enjoy this game the way they like moving forward," but then state that these players will not be able to enjoy the new content "the way they like," and so there is reason for them to be worried.

But there’s already content that is intrinsically more difficult. Players cannot do all content the same already. So why should this be different?

[Glacier Peak]

Got some real paranoid folks in this community! If the past two and a half years have taught us anything, its that the faith we have in our volunteer team hasn't been misplaced. When the next page gets dropped for testing on Brainstorm, they will solicit feedback like they always do, and if appropriate, make changes as they always do. 

[arcane]

11 minutes ago, Blackbird71 said:

 

It just seems contradictory to first say that "people who like things right where they are now shouldn't be worried," and "we're dedicated to ensuring that everyone can enjoy this game the way they like moving forward," but then state that these players will not be able to enjoy the new content "the way they like," and so there is reason for them to be worried.

They haven’t taken away anything you have. They aren’t telling you you can’t play the new content. They’re just doing something to appeal to the large group of players that acknowledge the need for more difficult content. Is that so wrong?

[skoryy]

1 hour ago, Piecemeal said:

 

Everyone will know the score before joining. This TF is simply not built to solo easily at top difficulty.

 

True, but that's not what's had me thinking.  Offering better rewards for extreme difficulty is where I start recalling such fun times as optimal builds being the only builds, team kicks being more frequent, 'look at this scrub' posts, and all that drama.  Again, drawing on my experiences and understanding of FFXIV, its relatively drama free thanks to a.) extreme difficulty offering different - not necessarily better - rewards and b.) heavy forum / Reddit / GM moderation.  From what I'm reading here, its not a bad idea but I hope y'all are prepared for this.

[Bionic_Flea]

No matter what they do there will be drama, gnashing of teeth, and cries of doom, along with a good helping of thanks, devs are awesome, and nominations for sainthood.

 

Me, I wait for the stuff.  Try it out.  Give my input. 

 

Hopefully by the time it goes live it's something that I either love or at least can tolerate.  If not, I shrug my shoulders and move on.  Either way, I keep playing the way I have for years.

[Blackbird71]

17 minutes ago, Arcadio said:

But there’s already content that is intrinsically more difficult. Players cannot do all content the same already. So why should this be different?

 

Because:

 

21 hours ago, Cobalt Arachne said:

We're dedicated to ensuring that everyone can enjoy this game the way they like moving forward, there will be options to move the difficulty ceiling up for those who are looking for it, but the floor where it exists isn't moving.

 

(underline added for emphasis)

 

I'm calling out a contradiction in the statements.  "Moving forward" implies that this should apply to future content, but then CA turns around a few posts later and says it won't. 

[Bionic_Flea]

10 minutes ago, Blackbird71 said:

I'm calling out a contradiction in the statements.  "Moving forward" implies that this should apply to future content, but then CA turns around a few posts later and says it won't.

Magic 8 Ball says:

 

[Brutal Justice]

I have confirmed through the use of the interwebs, and an in-law of my cousin, that the new tf will apply a temporary power to all characters, similar to the vahz wasting disease.  This power will lower your defense cap to 40%.  Therefore raising the ceiling and not the floor.  While also providing value to control and support sets without making them mandatory.  

[Apparition]

A lot of friends of mine stopped playing on Homecoming over the past year and a half because they feel that they have done absolutely everything possible there is to do in the game, and that there is simply no challenge left.  They’ve soloed and duoed every single TF, SF, and even Incarnate Trial in the game.  One challenging TF won’t bring them back permanently, but it’s a step in the right direction and I hope that I get to play with them again for a little while.

[GraspingVileTerror]

Again, I'm not trying to be a pessimist, but to @Glacier Peak's sentiment I'll say that -some- members of the Homecoming Team have provided evidence to "keep the faith," as it were.  As members of the Team have themselves pointed out, they're not a wholly united group.  I'll certainly wait to see what @Piecemeal and @Cobalt Arachne have on offer this time before passing judgement on it.  But I also won't stop myself from discussing past experiences which colour my expectations, no matter how much I try to repress those expectations from influencing my judgement.

We're each only human, after all (allusions to character roleplay and feelings of dysmorphia notwithstanding).

 

I'll share a page from @Bionic_Flea's book on this one, but I'll also continue to advocate for improvements and additions which I personally value, whether in terms of content or development methodology.

 

I do appreciate Piecemeal's approach to the examination of The Warriors and bringing the discussion out to the community in advance as a first step.  Again, like this difficulty scale thing, we'll have to see how it all shakes out.  I acknowledge there's probably a great deal of pressure and frustration that members of the Homecoming Team feel too.  But with things being played so close to the chest, it's not hard for me to see why people feel bitter and resentful.  

I stand by my belief that additional communication would be beneficial.  There just needs to be a stronger push within the entire community (which includes members of the Homecoming Team, past-present-and-future) to press for compassionate and thoughtful words, understanding, and patience.  And frankly, I don't see saccharine platitudes as the way to achieve that.  I think the path forward will involve difficult conversations where we're able to ask one another to do better, and harmful language is addressed with improvements made to prevent that harm in the future.

 

So, yeah.

Very personal and subjective ranty bits incoming.
And apologies in advance here to both Piecemeal and Cobalt Arachne, as I'm just using the messages here as a recent example, and not suggesting these are the only instance of this.  I get being personally excited about something you've worked on, something you're passionate about, and sharing it with thousands of other people.  I realize that from your perspectives this thing has been baking in the oven for ages now, and you wouldn't be showing it off unless you and the people close to you weren't confident that it was ready for that.

But I kind of feel like your messages are still carrying a certain level of overconfidence here.  And I believe that's a by-product of crafting this content in a bit of an echo chamber.  You cite inclusivity, but I certainly don't think we're there yet on official and publicly accessible communication channels.  I can scarcely imagine how much more narrow the point of views become when we shave away . . . what?  90% of the greater community?  95%?  How many folks are actually involved in the process?  How many of those voices are decidedly different from one another?

 

I do appreciate that you've both been more careful than some other folks had been in the past with the choice of language used in this thread, and I absolutely do not want what I'm trying to say here to push anyone further in to secrecy and exclusivity.  I don't want either of you (or any members of the Homecoming Team) to feel any less passionate about the work you're electing to do in your free time for what (I assume) you hope to be the benefit of thousands of people.  I also really like that you've discussed some of your goals.  

 

Just . . . can we spare portions of the replies that are hype-train non-answers, please?

I know.  I have a personal bias of animousity against the sorry state the wider games industry is in, and the part I played in getting there with marketing, so please take my words with as many grains of salt as you feel appropriate.

I just want us to move past that sort of thing and get the community on firmer foundations of communication all around.

 

And hey!  This is one of those two-way street things.

Feel free to let me know what you need from me to lay that foundation I'm looking for.

Please let the whole community know where we can improve in this effort too.

[Bionic_Flea]

Folks can ask to be part of the Alpha testing process and everyone will have access to Beta testing.  The HC devs have demonstrated a willingness to make changes to stuff on test before it goes live, especially if the criticism is based on objective testing and rational critiques.  In other words, actually running the new stuff and demonstrating how and why new stuff is less than excellent either empirically or even subjectively might get them to change it. 

 

"OMG! This sucks. I'm rage-quitting" will never get the same results.  Not accusing GVT or anyone in this thread of doing that.  But we've seen it before.

[GraspingVileTerror]

I've seen those kinds of knee-jerk responses too, and I agree that they're not as helpful to the feedback process as calmer and more careful feedback is.

But I really, really think there is more that can be done in terms of including players in advance to help pre-emptively address that sentiment.

AND those knee-jerk reactions -are- valid feedback too.  All feedback is valuable.  It's definitely better when there is a dialogue and all sides can be on the same page, but -everything- is valuable for gauging the reception of work/product.

 

I've seen very effective marketing teams who take an approach in these sorts of cases to reach out to everyone who gave feedback, organize groups, and -change communication strategies- with different subsets.

Assuming "this person just likes to complain" isn't as productive as sitting down with that person and finding out what's really going on.

 

Human beings are notoriously terrible AND great at communication; it all depends on who you ask, and how you ask

 

 

All that said, I get that there's certainly a limit on volunteer time, and having a discussion takes time.  Especially with someone that you have communication barriers with.  AND this volunteer team can't hire more people to fill out their roster of community outreach positions, and they've made some attempts to recruit more (although those recruitment methods are a slightly different kettle of fish ...).

But there is a strategy they could employ that has been called for since the start of Homecoming:  Roadmaps.

 

Give the community the tools necessary to bring themselves on to the same page of your own book if you don't have the time or resources to get on the same page of each player.

Sure, this will still leave gaps in outreach.  But there will be far fewer gaps, and that will only make any outreach that much easier at that point.

It's the whole "an ounce of preparation is worth a pound of cure" thing.

[Glacier Peak]

1 hour ago, GraspingVileTerror said:

Again, I'm not trying to be a pessimist, but to @Glacier Peak's sentiment I'll say that -some- members of the Homecoming Team have provided evidence to "keep the faith," as it were.  As members of the Team have themselves pointed out, they're not a wholly united group.  I'll certainly wait to see what @Piecemeal and @Cobalt Arachne have on offer this time before passing judgement on it.  But I also won't stop myself from discussing past experiences which colour my expectations, no matter how much I try to repress those expectations from influencing my judgement.

We're each only human, after all (allusions to character roleplay and feelings of dysmorphia notwithstanding).

 

I'll share a page from @Bionic_Flea's book on this one, but I'll also continue to advocate for improvements and additions which I personally value, whether in terms of content or development methodology.

 

I do appreciate Piecemeal's approach to the examination of The Warriors and bringing the discussion out to the community in advance as a first step.  Again, like this difficulty scale thing, we'll have to see how it all shakes out.  I acknowledge there's probably a great deal of pressure and frustration that members of the Homecoming Team feel too.  But with things being played so close to the chest, it's not hard for me to see why people feel bitter and resentful.  

I stand by my belief that additional communication would be beneficial.  There just needs to be a stronger push within the entire community (which includes members of the Homecoming Team, past-present-and-future) to press for compassionate and thoughtful words, understanding, and patience.  And frankly, I don't see saccharine platitudes as the way to achieve that.  I think the path forward will involve difficult conversations where we're able to ask one another to do better, and harmful language is addressed with improvements made to prevent that harm in the future.

 

So, yeah.

Very personal and subjective ranty bits incoming.
And apologies in advance here to both Piecemeal and Cobalt Arachne, as I'm just using the messages here as a recent example, and not suggesting these are the only instance of this.  I get being personally excited about something you've worked on, something you're passionate about, and sharing it with thousands of other people.  I realize that from your perspectives this thing has been baking in the oven for ages now, and you wouldn't be showing it off unless you and the people close to you weren't confident that it was ready for that.

But I kind of feel like your messages are still carrying a certain level of overconfidence here.  And I believe that's a by-product of crafting this content in a bit of an echo chamber.  You cite inclusivity, but I certainly don't think we're there yet on official and publicly accessible communication channels.  I can scarcely imagine how much more narrow the point of views become when we shave away . . . what?  90% of the greater community?  95%?  How many folks are actually involved in the process?  How many of those voices are decidedly different from one another?

 

I do appreciate that you've both been more careful than some other folks had been in the past with the choice of language used in this thread, and I absolutely do not want what I'm trying to say here to push anyone further in to secrecy and exclusivity.  I don't want either of you (or any members of the Homecoming Team) to feel any less passionate about the work you're electing to do in your free time for what (I assume) you hope to be the benefit of thousands of people.  I also really like that you've discussed some of your goals. 

 

Just . . . can we spare portions of the replies that are hype-train non-answers, please?

I know.  I have a personal bias of animousity against the sorry state the wider games industry is in, and the part I played in getting there with marketing, so please take my words with as many grains of salt as you feel appropriate.

I just want us to move past that sort of thing and get the community on firmer foundations of communication all around.

 

And hey!  This is one of those two-way street things.

Feel free to let me know what you need from me to lay that foundation I'm looking for.

Please let the whole community know where we can improve in this effort too.

As I was @ in the above, I will reply and without going too far off topic, I feel the need to point out that there isn't anything being played close to the chest in this community. There isn't a cavalcade of nefarious intent wrapped in a cloak of ambiguity - if any player wants to support the community they can do so by testing out the content that the HC team makes, among many other things. If they want to find out what is going on and be at the cutting edge of development, then they can jump in to the scene and start developing powers, costumes, story content, or whatever expertise a player can bring to the team.

 

There is no hidden agenda here, no super secret club, no conspiracy to pull a fast one on anybody. The people who have free time to put in to this game, whether that is playing or testing, or creating content - that is done because it is enjoyable to them. And there are constant updates to the community, whether here on the forums or on the official discord. There are even teasers and bread crumbs for folks to chase after that are in to that sort of thing. 

Last little bit here - you both express appreciation in your response to the HC devs above and then reek perturbation and ignominy on the same kind based on past indignity (which you stated was in no way related to Homecoming, but as a generalization of the video game industry). That is seriously despondent, it ain't half bad here - it is a good community! And why are you reaching out rhetorically to ask how you can help the community? I have seen your account support this community. Either way, to answer your inquiry:

 

 

Edited September 8, 2021 by Glacier Peak
be to being spelling