So, running AV's huh?

[Nightmarer 2]

Hello and stuff,

 

Sorry if I missed a similar thread but my search-fu, well, it sucks. I was wondering about all this AV running when there's no taunt power on team. I'm sure I am not the only one who noticed, Romulus runs away, Requiem runs away, Hopkins runs away, Dr. Vazhilok runs away, Clamor runs away... I'm sure you get the gist of what I mean.

See, to make this short, just wondering if it is working as intended thus trying to force teams to have a toon with Taunt or is it a bug or some sort of unwanted behavior? and if so, anything being done to sort it out?

 

Thanks.

[Bill Z Bubba]

It's worse than you think. AVs are running away even IF taunted. If it was intentional, seems it was done to make those with immobilizes more useful.

 

 

 

Edited September 26, 2021 by Bill Z Bubba

[Apparition]

AVs running like triathlon runners isn't new, unlike what the thread Bill Z Bubba linked says.  Hopkins, Director 11, Romulus, et al. taking off like a bat out of Hell has been around since live.  It's just the consequence of not having a Brute, Tanker, Controller, and/or Dominator on the team.

 

Melee heavy teams face the consequence of AV and GM fights taking a while due to little or no debuffs.  Teams without a Tanker, Brute, Controller, and/or Dominator face the consequence of AVs running all over the place.

 

IMO, the "ideal" City of Heroes team composition consists of one Tanker or Brute with taunt, one Controller or Dominator, one buffer (can also be a Controller), two or three debuffers (can also be a Controller), and the rest damage.  Of course, you can replace the Tanker or Brute with a Warshade with Dwarf form, and the Controller or Dominator with a Fortunata.

 

Also of course, this is City of Heroes, so you don't need an ideal team composition.  Just that there are consequences for not having one. :D

[Aurora_Girl]

I feel like enemies *period* run specifically more and for longer durations because of being debuffed. Rommy pulling his best mountain goat act and parkouring all over the courtyard is, to me, a hell of a lot more entertaining and dynamic than a tank-n-spank experience. Feel like this is a taxonomical branch of the knockback naysayers family tbh 😛

 

Call it the difference between a $4 pizza buffet and wood-fired Neopolitan-style. 

 

If that type of experience bugs ya, bring your immobing friends or just embrace the chase. 

[ninja surprise]

3 hours ago, Apparition said:

Melee heavy teams face the consequence of AV and GM fights taking a while due to little or no debuffs.  Teams without a Tanker, Brute, Controller, and/or Dominator face the consequence of AVs running all over the place.

 

Some of them ignore the Tank's taunts completely and just run all over with everyone chasing them. If the purple triangles are up then controls are ineffective and the AV battle becomes a virtual re-enactment of A Fly Went By.

[Doomguide2005]

5 hours ago, ninja surprise said:

 

Some of them ignore the Tank's taunts completely and just run all over with everyone chasing them. If the purple triangles are up then controls are ineffective and the AV battle becomes a virtual re-enactment of A Fly Went By.

     All controls except Sleeps and Immobilizes are effected by the PtoD.  Hence the advice up thread to bring your "immobing friends" and I've never seen it but something like Electric Controls pulsing reapplying Sleep might work.  Chasing Rommy all over inspired many of my Defenders to take Electric Mastery's Electric Fence  This prior to the newer ppm proc mechanics.  Fast recharge with multiple procs it was quite deadly.  And even with the proc changes many of my builds kept it just to stop runners, AVs in particular.

[Six-Six]

put yourself in their shoes. Wouldn't you run away when faced with a mob or single foe you can't handle? I'm sure a lot of us have done this instead of grinning and bearing it only to wake up in the med bay... I suppose the AI is only human 😃

[Uun]

I've noticed that Director 11 often ignores immobilizes and just wanted to bring this power to your attention: Tactical Retreat

[iBot]

They run.  We chase.  Seems reasonable to me.  My SG runs all sorts of team make ups for these and invariably there is always someone (usually the same person) that complains that the AV won't stand still and take the pounding like a real person.  Personally, I don't see the big deal.  Press "F" and run all over the map with them.  Or even better, play ranged, slot for range, stay in one spot, and blasterize them  from across the map. ☠️

[The_Warpact]

I chalk it up to them being able to resist/defend against some things.

Honestly I don't blame them can you imagine being a single villain and having the JLA bearing down on you.

Ego and arrogance will only take you so far, then its the "shit your britches" and take off running.

I know its programming blah, blah, blah I like my reasoning better.

[Doomguide2005]

5 hours ago, Uun said:

I've noticed that Director 11 often ignores immobilizes and just wanted to bring this power to your attention: Tactical Retreat

     Interesting though it does make me realize that unlike most (all?) of my characters the game's AVs aren't particular fond of Combat Jumping.  Fortunately for us Immobilizers.

[Yomo Kimyata]

I’ve always considered this to be part of the programming, like how Nemesis goes untouchable at 25% or whatever.  I’ve rarely found it to be a serious problem ( although it’s a pain when Diabolique or whoever it is flies away like crazy).

 

I have a trick that I use.  I have NO IDEA if there is any validity to it or if it’s just a superstition I came up with.  When I’m coming up to a quartile in an AV’s health (when they normally say something smarmy) *I* run away a short distance.  They pursue me, I blast them through the health quartile, they say their piece, and they don’t seem to run away.  My superstition is based on the off chance that the run reflex is triggered based on HP total and that if they are in “pursue” mode they don’t seem to flip to “run” mode.  I can not emphasize enough that I have no idea if this is true or not, but it helps me sleep at night and I rarely chase AVs.

 

 

Edited September 27, 2021 by Yomo Kimyata
Editing is super cool

[Bill Z Bubba]

Just ran a solo ITF and even when laying down darkest night, I didn't have a single AV go into skidaddle mode. This was on a shield/em tank.

[ninja surprise]

On 9/26/2021 at 10:00 PM, Doomguide2005 said:

     All controls except Sleeps and Immobilizes are effected by the PtoD.  Hence the advice up thread to bring your "immobing friends" and I've never seen it but something like Electric Controls pulsing reapplying Sleep might work.  Chasing Rommy all over inspired many of my Defenders to take Electric Mastery's Electric Fence  This prior to the newer ppm proc mechanics.  Fast recharge with multiple procs it was quite deadly.  And even with the proc changes many of my builds kept it just to stop runners, AVs in particular.

 

I don't think Sleeps would be very effective during an AV battle. Not enough time for them to fall asleep before they get attacked again.

Do various AVs have resist to immob aside from the PToD?  The AV I've had to chase the most is Mary MacComber, but it's hard to remember if/when there were toons with immobilizes, including Blasters. Rommie often runs for the stairs during the computer phase of ITF. Is there a web grenade type temp power? I'll buy that for my tanks and scrappers.

[Veracor]

There are a few powers that apply an AI-only status called "Afraid" to targets, which tells the AI to immediately go into flee state.  Some AVs such as Romulus and Requiem do not use "Never Afraid" AI, nor do they have inherent protection against Afraid, meaning they'll run all the way to Galaxy City if they get hit by a single DoT that has it.  And despite most sources of Afraid being very short in duration, it can take a long time for the AI to loop back and realize it should stop being in its flee state once the status expires.

 

Afraid is not to be confused with Terrorized, which is the status effect seen in some control abilities.  It is also not to be confused with kAvoid, which is a flag that tells the AI to merely move out of an AoE effect like Rain of Fire, yet not abandon the fight.  Afraid is its own thing; it can stack on players but it doesn't do anything to us.

 

The most common sources of Afraid are Hot Feet and Tornado (Any AT).  If you are using those powers, you will definitely want some Immobilize to help counter it.  Sometimes Fire/Fire Blaster speedrunners will use one Bio Scrapper (Who has both Confront and a taunt aura) to prevent some AVs from fleeing their stacked Hot Feet, but it isn't super clear to us how exactly Taunt interferes with the AI's flee state, mechanically speaking.

 

And yes, Director 11 does indeed use a power that makes himself Afraid.  So do Neuron's clones to tell them to move around in combat.  Lol.

Edited September 28, 2021 by Veracor

[Doomguide2005]

7 hours ago, ninja surprise said:

 

I don't think Sleeps would be very effective during an AV battle. Not enough time for them to fall asleep before they get attacked again.

Do various AVs have resist to immob aside from the PToD?  The AV I've had to chase the most is Mary MacComber, but it's hard to remember if/when there were toons with immobilizes, including Blasters. Rommie often runs for the stairs during the computer phase of ITF. Is there a web grenade type temp power? I'll buy that for my tanks and scrappers.

Simple one application Sleep effects no, not going to work.  

[Doomguide2005]

7 hours ago, Veracor said:

There are a few powers that apply an AI-only status called "Afraid" to targets, which tells the AI to immediately go into flee state.  Some AVs such as Romulus and Requiem do not use "Never Afraid" AI, nor do they have inherent protection against Afraid, meaning they'll run all the way to Galaxy City if they get hit by a single DoT that has it.  And despite most sources of Afraid being very short in duration, it can take a long time for the AI to loop back and realize it should stop being in its flee state once the status expires.

 

Afraid is not to be confused with Terrorized, which is the status effect seen in some control abilities.  It is also not to be confused with kAvoid, which is a flag that tells the AI to merely move out of an AoE effect like Rain of Fire, yet not abandon the fight.  Afraid is its own thing; it can stack on players but it doesn't do anything to us.

 

The most common sources of Afraid are Hot Feet and Tornado (Any AT).  If you are using those powers, you will definitely want some Immobilize to help counter it.  Sometimes Fire/Fire Blaster speedrunners will use one Bio Scrapper (Who has both Confront and a taunt aura) to prevent some AVs from fleeing their stacked Hot Feet, but it isn't super clear to us how exactly Taunt interferes with the AI's flee state, mechanically speaking.

 

And yes, Director 11 does indeed use a power that makes himself Afraid.  So do Neuron's clones to tell them to move around in combat.  Lol.

Indeed.  Recall one SG run of the STF (long time ago, IOs were still new to many of us) where we had issues with Recluse doing the track star routine and chatting amongst ourselves afterwards and realizing it almost had to be the Afraid in Tornado (Defender character) that was doing it.  Hot Feet I've never noticed it.   Most of the HF users I teamed with were Controllers or I was on a Controller myself and was using Immobilize.  Generally I wouldn't have had the chance to tell the difference between get out of burning ground and get out of town Afraid.   

 

PS:  Lightning Storm also has Afraid, so both the t8 and t9 have Afraid add in the Avoid in FR and Repel from Hurricane and probably the only things not running or moving about will be Snipers and Turrets 😋 Chaos incarnate!

[Snarky]

In the Magisterium sometimes Tyrant will just harang off on his own.  Not sure he is 'running' so much as just "I do what I want!"  

[Olly]

21 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Just ran a solo ITF and even when laying down darkest night, I didn't have a single AV go into skidaddle mode. This was on a shield/em tank.

 

Rommy won't run away on me if I'm ground-based on my scrapper, either. *BUT* he will go bat crazy if I activate hover on that same scrapper. And of course, if someone is laying doing sleet / rain of fire / other similar powers, then yes, they will run away unless taunted. It's been like that forever, people mostly sort it out. Don't think it's ever going to get fixed.

[DreadShinobi]

@Veracor @Doomguide2005

Yeah i dunno about the note on hotfeet, cause back on live i tanked lord recluse on a MoSTF with my fire/kin controller and i kept hotfeet toggled and detoggled super speed (threat level manipulation) and i was able to keep recluse's attention while towers were destroyed. 

[Doomguide2005]

15 hours ago, Olly said:

 

Rommy won't run away on me if I'm ground-based on my scrapper, either. *BUT* he will go bat crazy if I activate hover on that same scrapper. And of course, if someone is laying doing sleet / rain of fire / other similar powers, then yes, they will run away unless taunted. It's been like that forever, people mostly sort it out. Don't think it's ever going to get fixed.

Couple things to note.  Sleet, Rain of Fire those powers have Avoid in them ... which makes them try to run out of the AoE.  Then if they've survived they'll turn and attack.  It's also worth pointing out debuffs increase your threat rating.  Darkest Night as Bill Z noted has neither Avoid nor Afraid and as a debuff is strong (and presumably increases threat more then a smaller value debuff).  It's doing nothing but make whatever your fighting more likely to continue to attack.  Generally if present in a debuff (like Tornado's) the mag of Avoid or Afraid way, way outstrips the mag of everything else as in the Afraid is on the order of 500 mag.  That's a lot of threat to generate to overcome the Afraid.

[Olly]

6 hours ago, Doomguide2005 said:

 It's also worth pointing out debuffs increase your threat rating. 

 

Yeah I think there's also a possible situation wherein if the incoming DPS is too high, it triggers the running. Certain for adds, not sure for AV's.  Debuffs can make it easier to trigger that event, I suppose.

 

13 hours ago, DreadShinobi said:

Yeah i dunno about the note on hotfeet, cause back on live i tanked lord recluse on a MoSTF with my fire/kin controller and i kept hotfeet toggled and detoggled super speed (threat level manipulation) and i was able to keep recluse's attention while towers were destroyed. 

 

You tanked a MoSTF with a controller??? On Live?? Balls! 

 

Hot Feet, iirc yes for adds, but not sure for AV's. 

[Doomguide2005]

@Olly

@DreadShinobi

If I had to guess ... Hot Feet is going to both help take out the Tower, kill the Repairmen while the who or whatever is doing the tanking receives Transfusion as needed in this case DreadShinobi's own Kin.

 

PS: Most (all?) of the all support teams I've been on haven't so much tanked him as essentially ignored him until it was his turn.  The ones where there was a Scrapper or other AT doing the tanking but all healing needed a foe to target that's how it was done.  The healing used a Tower not currently being brought down as the target.  A Kinetic works well as there's less risk Recluse will catch them with an AoE aimed at tank.

Edited September 29, 2021 by Doomguide2005
Afterthoughts

[DoctorDitko]

On 9/26/2021 at 6:04 PM, Aurora_Girl said:

parkouring all over the courtyard is, to me, a hell of a lot more entertaining and dynamic

Very much this!

Same reason I seldom take self-anti-knockback measures: It makes me feel like I'm in a superhero fight!

If only we could knock each other through walls...

(Getting knocked through the occasional Tech door doesn't count; the door stays closed.)

[Aurora_Girl]

1 hour ago, DoctorDitko said:

Very much this!

Same reason I seldom take self-anti-knockback measures: It makes me feel like I'm in a superhero fight!

If only we could knock each other through walls...

(Getting knocked through the occasional Tech door doesn't count; the door stays closed.)

 

You *can*, however, teleport through walls. Which is baller AF. 

 

cackles in combat teleport loc target