Why a Brute?

[wjrasmussen]

On 9/27/2021 at 3:02 PM, Apparition said:

 

 

Yep.  I know that the legion of old school Tanker fans will say that everything about Brutes and Tankers right now is just fine, but it isn't.  The Issue 26, Page Four patch overbuffed Tankers to the point that there's now very little objective reason to make a Brute other than for farming, and even then there's an argument to be made in favor of the Tanker.  IMO, the Tanker melee damage modifier needs to be nerfed back to 0.85, or if the developers are dead set against that, then Brute's melee damage modifier needs to be increased.  Otherwise there will continue to be very little reason to make a Brute.

Give brutes a crit % bonus based on Rage!

[Snarky]

THe two above pulled quotes bookend where Brutes are now.  Brutes max damage cap is very nice, if you plsay in optimized team settings.  (Big IF!) Tankers got a much needed (and deserved) buff.  That Brutes will always be jealous of.  

 

Could Brutes use some tweak?  Maybe.  I love Brutes.  i am soloing the game (every arc/contact/side mission red/blue/gold) on a Dark/Invul Brute.  F-ing s l o w going.  No AoE to speak of and very light damage until I am swarmed and pop a couple reds.  I would love to see Brutes get something.  They got a nerf hammer because they were out damaging Scrappers years ago and havent been touched since.  

 

Again, Tankers needed some love.  Sentinels NEED love.  Brutes.....well, being meh in some ways is not going to get you very far up a incredibly long list of to do projects for a Dev team that is woefully understaffed, unpaid, and constantly being told what players NEED RIGHT NOW!

 

But, bon chance. 

[Redletter]

"Why a brute?"

 

Because youre a tanker who can actually deal damage, and youre a scapper who wont die in a stiff wind.

[lemming]

I have a couple Tank/Brute combos that I've mirrored.    On most occasions, the brute goes thru the mission quicker, but I have to watch their health.  The tank is a much more relaxed mission style, slower, but I can multitask.

At least that's my experience on small teams.  Large teams, it depends on the team if I play my brute like a scrapper, or a tank

[Without_Pause]

39 minutes ago, wjrasmussen said:

Give brutes a crit % bonus based on Rage!

What about non-SS sets? 

 

I wouldn't mind some sort of ATO rework for brutes as the +fury one seems a bit meh. Stalker, Scrapper, and Tanks all got really good ATOs.

 

While this goes beyond just Brutes, getting a Fort to near completion has really made me think about what a build can handle.

 

I think any new brute build outside of that will likely be StJ with something which promotes a blender style build. Rad has the best top end in that it has +recharge and damage, but it has no mitigation in terms of -recharge as where Elec does. EA doesn't add damage, but it has -recharge def built in due to being def based and has a solid -recharge to mobs. I'm about tapped in terms of doing EA right now with one 50 and two others being leveled.

 

I finished DA with my Fort, so I need to bet back to my Rad/bio and start pushing it to see it finish off the area as well. So far that's doing well as a build.

[Sovera]

2 hours ago, Without_Pause said:

What about non-SS sets? 

 

I wouldn't mind some sort of ATO rework for brutes as the +fury one seems a bit meh. Stalker, Scrapper, and Tanks all got really good ATOs.

 

While this goes beyond just Brutes, getting a Fort to near completion has really made me think about what a build can handle.

 

I think any new brute build outside of that will likely be StJ with something which promotes a blender style build. Rad has the best top end in that it has +recharge and damage, but it has no mitigation in terms of -recharge as where Elec does. EA doesn't add damage, but it has -recharge def built in due to being def based and has a solid -recharge to mobs. I'm about tapped in terms of doing EA right now with one 50 and two others being leveled.

 

I finished DA with my Fort, so I need to bet back to my Rad/bio and start pushing it to see it finish off the area as well. So far that's doing well as a build.

 

Despite being perfectly happy with my EM/Fire I've decided to level a StJ/Fire next. Just because I like playing the game but don't really play the game much anymore. Leveling something is a good excuse to go out.

 

I've only done the combo with a Tanker and was not impressed but I like that the AoE lets me slot a FF proc so it's time to try it on a Brute and see how the differences feel.

[Hjarki]

When I'm building a character, I tend to think of AT last.

 

The first thought is either thematic or mechanical. Only then do I decide what AT I'll be use - I've got 4 to choose from after all.

 

However, when I'm doing this "what AT?", Brute usually isn't the answer.

 

If I'm concerned about raw durability or I'm going to be using a lot of Cone AE, then Tanker is probably the right choice. If the attack set is insufficient in single target, that leads towards Stalker. If the armor set has damage buffs or the melee set has a very imbalanced attack chain (one high damage attack amidst low damage ones), that probably means Scrapper. About the only time Brute is an unqualified 'win' is when I'm concerned with afk farming.

[Without_Pause]

5 hours ago, Sovera said:

 

Despite being perfectly happy with my EM/Fire I've decided to level a StJ/Fire next. Just because I like playing the game but don't really play the game much anymore. Leveling something is a good excuse to go out.

 

I've only done the combo with a Tanker and was not impressed but I like that the AoE lets me slot a FF proc so it's time to try it on a Brute and see how the differences feel.

I accept EM is a better performer than StJ. StJ is best on a Stalker regardless. To me it is more about flow. Case in point, I was on my Dark/staff Tank tonight and died twice due to being stuck in an 2.57 second cast time animation which prevented me from using my heal.

 

Whirling Hands: 2.5 second cast time

Total Focus: 2.53 second cast time

 

Spinning Strike: 1.8 second cast time.

Crushing Uppercut: second 2.17 cast time

 

EM does more damage as it should. Again, it is about the flow to me and a big reason why I took Claws to 50 twice and no, I don't care for Eviscerate. I skipped the T1 on my EM scrapper and yeah, it was a bit annoying waiting until 32 to have a decent ST attack chain. Also note StJ is just going to feel better paired with a click heavy armor set.

[Erratic1]

7 hours ago, Hjarki said:

However, when I'm doing this "what AT?", Brute usually isn't the answer.

 

If I'm concerned about raw durability or I'm going to be using a lot of Cone AE, then Tanker is probably the right choice. If the attack set is insufficient in single target, that leads towards Stalker. If the armor set has damage buffs or the melee set has a very imbalanced attack chain (one high damage attack amidst low damage ones), that probably means Scrapper. About the only time Brute is an unqualified 'win' is when I'm concerned with afk farming.

 

By framing your answer to, "What AT?" in either/or terms you miss out on the answer, "What not both/all?"

 

I am not going to say I have not seen some impressive Tankers. There is a Bio/Staff tanker I bumped into a few weeks ago who is plain amazing at laying out damage and melts through a group every bit as fast as anything one might imagine. But that is the rarity in terms of what I have seen.  Yes, plenty of Tankers do solid damage, but amazing is a beast which is rare. How rare is impressive damage on Brutes?

 

Likewise, there have long been survivable scrappers. My original scrapper in Live, back in the first month of release, was DM/Inv. But what DM/Inv was known for back in the day was just how survivable it was. Specifically how survivable it was in comparison to what you could otherwise being playing as a scrapper. Such is not a selling point if on the whole the AT enjoys comparable survivability across its builds and no Brute powerset combination lacks the resources to be extremely survivable. 

 

So the question to me is if you ever, in your deliberations on what AT to make your concept, ever ask, "Which AT gives me survivability and damage?" And having asked that question, how it is that the answer, "...usually isn't [Brute]"?

[Hjarki]

3 hours ago, Erratic1 said:

So the question to me is if you ever, in your deliberations on what AT to make your concept, ever ask, "Which AT gives me survivability and damage?" And having asked that question, how it is that the answer, "...usually isn't [Brute]"?

Brute, at damage cap, gives 10% more damage than Tanker. Indeed, the main damage advantage Brutes have is probably that they're not forced to take the (normally weak) first attack. For AE, the significant target cap and arc/radius advantages of Tankers mean they're often more effective at basic room clearing.

 

Scrappers and Brutes have the same numbers on their armor sets. Brutes have slightly more health and a higher resist cap. However, the higher resist cap isn't necessarily all that meaningful since you're not even reaching the Scrapper resist cap for most resists in most sets. I'm far more likely to choose Brute > Scrapper over issues like existence of taunt auras than I am general durability.

[Ukase]

On 9/29/2021 at 8:40 AM, roleki said:

Out on the street, going door-to-door with a group, I'd take a Scrapper over a Brute, because in theory you'll have team buffs out the wazoo that mask over the inferior survival stats and amp up your damage output.  Out on a pylon or some other single target benchmark, I'd go with a Scrapper over a Brute, because for linear damage, a Scrapper will *usually* chunk out more DPS than a similarly-equipped Brute, due in no small part that the Brute ATOs are absolutely shitty, while the Scrapper ATOs are among the best in the game.

I probably shouldn't say anything, as it's been almost a couple of months. But, it's beyond my control, really. Brute ATOs "absolutely shitty"? That's madness. Scrapper ATOs best in game? That's purely your opinion, which you're entitled to, but please don't state such things, lest some unknowing player come along and assume you've got some sort of data to back that up. 

The Brute ATOs are quite excellent. What's interesting to me is I often see scrapper builds that only use one set of the Scrapper ATOs, and sometimes, just the proc of one set. Whereas, with brutes, I've never seen any brute build that didn't use both sets. (unless they were going for a pure SO or common IO build) 

And, as far as door to door with a group, whatever covers a hole in a scrapper from buffs, seems like it requires you to be in a group. Why be tethered to other players just to enjoy your character? I mean, if they're on and you're on - great - but if you need a team to play your character to its potential, then the case can be made you're on the wrong character. 

 

[Erratic1]

31 minutes ago, Hjarki said:

Brute, at damage cap, gives 10% more damage than Tanker. Indeed, the main damage advantage Brutes have is probably that they're not forced to take the (normally weak) first attack. For AE, the significant target cap and arc/radius advantages of Tankers mean they're often more effective at basic room clearing.

 

If you are able to play where you are always at damage cap (though I may have done the math wrong since it seems to me the cap difference is 25%) then more power to you. 

 

31 minutes ago, Hjarki said:

 

Scrappers and Brutes have the same numbers on their armor sets. Brutes have slightly more health and a higher resist cap. However, the higher resist cap isn't necessarily all that meaningful since you're not even reaching the Scrapper resist cap for most resists in most sets. I'm far more likely to choose Brute > Scrapper over issues like existence of taunt auras than I am general durability.

 

Because the most commonly dealt damage type is Smash/Lethal and so that is where people first focus on getting maxed on. The demon may be quite willing to throw a fireball at range but once you're up in his face he'll be hitting you and since you're a melee, you're probably going to be getting up in his face. The only brute builds I can see shortchanging S/L resistance are positional defense based ones.

 

[Hjarki]

46 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

If you are able to play where you are always at damage cap (though I may have done the math wrong since it seems to me the cap difference is 25%) then more power to you. 

Brute is 0.75 damage scale with 700% cap, so 5.25 scale. Tanker is 0.95 damage scale with 500% cap, so 4.75 scale. 5.25/4.75 = 1.11.

[Erratic1]

4 minutes ago, Hjarki said:

Brute is 0.75 damage scale with 700% cap, so 5.25 scale. Tanker is 0.95 damage scale with 500% cap, so 4.75 scale. 5.25/4.75 = 1.11.

 

Ahh, you said more. I was looking at it in terms of raw difference.

[Sovera]

... who plays at damage caps for this to even enter the equation?

 

I've test mirrored builds and of course the Brute does more damage (on a pylon) while being squishier. In practical terms with wider AoEs the Tanker looks like it's on par but the Brute still pulls ahead.

 

As for the ATOs, year, if we are talking of the specials they are crap. A stacking regen and endurance reduction and extra fury lag so far behind it is laughable to compare. Fury is about capped at 85-90 and no IO pushes it further and the stacking regen&endurance reduction, heh. I think it was 100% regen it gave, so, what, 10 HP per second?

[Bill Z Bubba]

28 minutes ago, Sovera said:

As for the ATOs, year, if we are talking of the specials they are crap. A stacking regen and endurance reduction and extra fury lag so far behind it is laughable to compare. Fury is about capped at 85-90 and no IO pushes it further and the stacking regen&endurance reduction, heh. I think it was 100% regen it gave, so, what, 10 HP per second?

 

Fury's cap is and always was 100%. I hit 99% the other day against a pylon with BZB Brute. The rest of what you state is, of course, absolutely true. His regen/endurance AT IO proc was replaced in Focus with a Glad Jav CF +Toxic but I did keep the full Brute's Fury set in Followup for the set bonuses. The CF +Fury is gravy.

 

But to compare them to the scrapper's passive and proc +crit chances? Or the tank's chance for +6.7% res that stacks 3 times easy? Even the stalker's autohide proc is better than what brutes get.

 

Edit: To be fair, though, doesn't look like BZB Tank has the Gauntleted Fist set at all either.

Edited November 18, 2021 by Bill Z Bubba

[roleki]

2 hours ago, Ukase said:

I probably shouldn't say anything, as it's been almost a couple of months. But, it's beyond my control, really. Brute ATOs "absolutely shitty"? That's madness. Scrapper ATOs best in game? That's purely your opinion, which you're entitled to, but please don't state such things, lest some unknowing player come along and assume you've got some sort of data to back that up. 

The Brute ATOs are quite excellent. What's interesting to me is I often see scrapper builds that only use one set of the Scrapper ATOs, and sometimes, just the proc of one set. Whereas, with brutes, I've never seen any brute build that didn't use both sets. (unless they were going for a pure SO or common IO build) 

And, as far as door to door with a group, whatever covers a hole in a scrapper from buffs, seems like it requires you to be in a group. Why be tethered to other players just to enjoy your character? I mean, if they're on and you're on - great - but if you need a team to play your character to its potential, then the case can be made you're on the wrong character. 

 

 

I stand by it, and I would gladly tell a newb the same.  Roll a similarly-kitted Scrapper, Brute, or Tank without ATOs, and run around with them.  Then slot the ATOs.  The Brute and Tank, eh, ok, nice little perks.  The Scrapper turns into a capital 'g' God.  The ability to sometimes get a little Absorb or a little spike in Fury is insignificant next to the ability to reliably predict when you are going to crit.  In comparison to every other ATO special, it is damn near broken.

[Bionic_Flea]

10 minutes ago, roleki said:

In comparison to every other ATO special, it is damn near broken.

And then the Stalker ATOs showed up . . . .

[Pzn]

1 hour ago, Bionic_Flea said:

And then the Stalker ATOs showed up . . . .

Scrapper ATOs get you a bigger DPS boost.  Only because the stalker chance to hide has a 10s lockout while scrapper's critical strikes can be spammed way more.  The build up refresh is definitely nice.

Edited November 18, 2021 by Pzn

[Without_Pause]

14 hours ago, Without_Pause said:

I accept EM is a better performer than StJ. StJ is best on a Stalker regardless. To me it is more about flow. Case in point, I was on my Dark/staff Tank tonight and died twice due to being stuck in an 2.57 second cast time animation which prevented me from using my heal.

 

Whirling Hands: 2.5 second cast time

Total Focus: 2.53 second cast time

 

Spinning Strike: 1.8 second cast time.

Crushing Uppercut: second 2.17 cast time

 

EM does more damage as it should. Again, it is about the flow to me and a big reason why I took Claws to 50 twice and no, I don't care for Eviscerate. I skipped the T1 on my EM scrapper and yeah, it was a bit annoying waiting until 32 to have a decent ST attack chain. Also note StJ is just going to feel better paired with a click heavy armor set.

An aside, I went looking and got reminded that Kat doesn't have any cast times at 2+ seconds. MA might be in the running for lowest animation time for ST attack chain even with EC factored in, but that would depend on the attack chain. It would be nice if exotic types got an attack set with fast animations. Let's say 2.17 seconds max and go from there. Sonic is near plug and play that this point.

[Bill Z Bubba]

3 hours ago, roleki said:

I stand by it, and I would gladly tell a newb the same.  Roll a similarly-kitted Scrapper, Brute, or Tank without ATOs, and run around with them.  Then slot the ATOs.  The Brute and Tank, eh, ok, nice little perks.  The Scrapper turns into a capital 'g' God.  The ability to sometimes get a little Absorb or a little spike in Fury is insignificant next to the ability to reliably predict when you are going to crit.  In comparison to every other ATO special, it is damn near broken.

 

You're seriously going to just ignore 20.1% damres to EVERYTHING that comes from triple stacking Sup Might of the Tanker? Really? That's just a "nice little perk?"

[Bill Z Bubba]

1 hour ago, Without_Pause said:

An aside, I went looking and got reminded that Kat doesn't have any cast times at 2+ seconds. MA might be in the running for lowest animation time for ST attack chain even with EC factored in, but that would depend on the attack chain. It would be nice if exotic types got an attack set with fast animations. Let's say 2.17 seconds max and go from there. Sonic is near plug and play that this point.

 

MA has a faster chain than claws' 3.96 seconds? (Edit: Arcanatime used.)

Edited November 18, 2021 by Bill Z Bubba

[Ukase]

3 hours ago, roleki said:

The ability to sometimes get a little Absorb or a little spike in Fury is insignificant next to the ability to reliably predict when you are going to crit.  In comparison to every other ATO special, it is damn near broken.

So...let me learn something here. How is it that you can reliably predict when you'll crit. Anecdotally, I seem to crit when the npc already has 1/4 to 1/8 hp left. How would you guarantee a crit? This has been the primary reason I've always gone brute over scrapper. Fury is superior to the overkill of a crit on an NPC that's already 3/4 defeated in my experience. If you can do as you say, please share how this is done. 

[Pzn]

14 hours ago, Ukase said:

So...let me learn something here. How is it that you can reliably predict when you'll crit. Anecdotally, I seem to crit when the npc already has 1/4 to 1/8 hp left. How would you guarantee a crit? This has been the primary reason I've always gone brute over scrapper. Fury is superior to the overkill of a crit on an NPC that's already 3/4 defeated in my experience. If you can do as you say, please share how this is done. 

Good placement and use of the critical strikes proc in your chain let's you have a lot of control over crits.  If you start your chain with it firing off then that +50% crit chance means that within 2 attacks you've got at least 1 crit on average.  There's always going to be some random chance to it.  You can also avoid intentionally overkilling by skipping over your critical strikes attack when the enemy HP is low and saving it for a new target.

[roleki]

16 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

You're seriously going to just ignore 20.1% damres to EVERYTHING that comes from triple stacking Sup Might of the Tanker? Really? That's just a "nice little perk?"

 

Time for me to learn something... describe this Triple Stacking.  If by "triple stacking" you mean splitting a set across 3 powers so that each gets 2 pieces, you only get 12% damage off Sup Might of the Tanker that way.  In that arena, splitting a set into 3, I would argue that Corruptor's Superior Scourge set split into 3, which nets you 10.8 endurance, would be the 'best' ATO split that way, followed by Sentinel Strikes (30% Range) and Dominator's Grasp (24% Mez duration) if the value of what those bonuses contribute to the performance of the character is considered apart from the impact of the unique from a given set.   

 

If you split a set into two, sliding 3 pieces into two separate powers, Tanker's SG Fist gets you 20% Mez Resist, 12% Resistance to E/NE, and 7.2 Max End, and that's pretty good.  Might of the Tanker split that way just nets you 70.6 Max HP and 8% Max Damage, which is kind of meh.  I would argue, in that scenario, Superior Scourging Blast is way up there in terms of value, netting 20% Recharge and 7.2 max endurance.  Kheldian Grace split that way nets 30% Accuracy, 20% Mez Resist, and 12% S/L resist which is also pretty good.

 

But when I consider EVERYTHING an ATO set does, I still believe that Scrapper ATOs are the best in the game - whether you slot them 6-wide or break them down into bonus mules -  mostly because their uniques are just so damn impactful.  In practice, changing your odds of a Critical Hit 3x a minute, from a 5 or 10 percent chance to 50% is just bonkers, considering what a crit adds to your DPS.  Adding 3 or 6% chance to crit from the other unique  is nothing to sneeze at, because it essentially doubles your chance to crit on every swing.   

 

 

15 hours ago, Ukase said:

So...let me learn something here. How is it that you can reliably predict when you'll crit. Anecdotally, I seem to crit when the npc already has 1/4 to 1/8 hp left. How would you guarantee a crit? This has been the primary reason I've always gone brute over scrapper. Fury is superior to the overkill of a crit on an NPC that's already 3/4 defeated in my experience. If you can do as you say, please share how this is done. 

 

Maybe 'reliably predict' is too strong a phrase for increasing your chance to crit by 900% vs minions (from 5% chance to 50% chance) and 400% against higher level targets (from 10% chance to 50% chance) but in practice, it FEELS reliable.  As @Pzn mentioned, placement is key, both in what power you put it, where you fire off that attack, and what you follow it with.  

 

I would have to do some data logging to back this up with numbers, but, on an Energy Melee type, if you put the Superior Critical Strikes set/proc in Total Focus and fire that off as a setup, I would say 8 or 9 times out of 10, you're getting the Critical Strikes cue.  You then have ~3.0 seconds to fire off another attack and it will crit... if it's Energy Transfer, you just killed a boss in two clicks.  If it's Whirling Hands, you just killed 80% of the minions surrounding you. 

 

ETA: to your observation that Crits usually happening when an enemy is already close to death and it usually being overkill, that's been my experience as well, and another reason why I prefer Brutes overall... dead is dead.  If there's two dudes lingering around at 200HP and my Brute hits one for 300 and your Scrapper hits the other for 600, sure, you out-DPS'd me, but they both were defeated, and I resisted 15% more of the incoming fire.  Also, I'll hit the next one for 310 or so, and it's a toss-up whether your Scrapper will hit for 300 or 450 or 600.  In the grand scheme of things, I prefer consistency.

Edited November 19, 2021 by roleki