Why a Brute?

[No Gods No Kings]

 

TLDR: What power combination makes Brutes standout from the other Melee Classes?

 

 

So I've been messing around with Brutes in Mids, and as I started to pay attention to the numbers I started feeling a little confused. What is the incentive to be a brute?

 

This isn't a knock on the class or anything,  I have a couple Brutes and I enjoy playing them. I'm just not sure what incentives being a brute. Basically I like looking at ways to maximize the inherent advantages of of the AT.

 

Looking at damage, Scrappers burst damage blows brute out the water, and even Tankers will hit harder right out the gate. Brutes more damage than Tankers in the end but in practice on teams you will tend to split the aggro with another Tanker or Brute so while the amount of fury you get does put you ahead of the Tanker it doesn't put you much further ahead. Also the Tanker gets larger AOEs so they seem to come out ahead in that area. So if you want to do single target damage or AOE both seem like better options. 

 

Another point for Tankers is that they don't have to invest so heavily in there defenses by chasing set bonuses, so they are free to pursue more competitive damage. Though ultimately the brute will out damage them in some areas.

 

Scrappers and Tankers have higher base damage so sets like Electric Melee, Shields, Bio seem to favor them 

 

The next is damage mitigation. So this was really what drove me to make this post. I have a SR Brute and Tanker both, which are both fun, but unless you hit the resists cap you may as well roll a scrapper, they hit the same cap as the Tanker and Brute but come loaded with more damage, so again SD, SR, Ice (Scrapper version is way better than brute or tank) etc. Even bio a scrapper can get comparable levels of Health Regen, even though not as much resists.  At first  I looked at Energy Aura cause it was the one armor that Brutes had Tankers didn't but being a defense set it had comparable survival to scrapper, but was a lot less damaging. 

 

Put another way my question is what is the Brutiest Brute Combination? What do Brutes do best, and what Primary/ Secondary combo would accenuate their strengths the most? Right now they sort of occur as sort of narrow Tankers.

 

I'm hoping for a different answer than "just play what you like" I already do that. I was wonder what some peoples idea of a quintessential brute is. Thank you. 

 

 

[No Gods No Kings]

Also for reference here is the brute I was working on, and I kept wondering why I don't just make it a scrapper? 

 

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[Apparition]

Why a Brute?  I've asked myself this question many times since the Issue 26, Page Four update.

 

Objectively:

 

1. You want to tank using the Energy Aura power set.

 

2. You don't want to play a Stalker nor tank, you hate runners, and you want to play an armor set that isn't Bio Armor, Invulnerability, or Shield Defense.  Other armor sets either have a stronger taunt aura on Brutes compared to Scrappers, or have a taunt aura at all on Brutes compared to no taunt aura on Scrappers.

 

Other than that, in all other cases you are better off playing a Scrapper or Tanker, objectively.

 

Now just for funsies or for feel, those are different things.

Edited September 27, 2021 by Apparition

[DreadShinobi]

The swing factor for me was the tanker patch.

 

Pre-tank patch - Fiery Aura is a great brute set

Post-tank patch - I pretend the archetype doesn't exist anymore.

[No Gods No Kings]

8 minutes ago, DreadShinobi said:

The swing factor for me was the tanker patch.

 

Pre-tank patch - Fiery Aura is a great brute set

Post-tank patch - I pretend the archetype doesn't exist anymore.

 

The Brute is dead to you or the tanker? 

 

 

16 minutes ago, Apparition said:

Why a Brute?  I've asked myself this question many times since the Issue 26, Page Four update.

 

Objectively:

 

1. You want to tank using the Energy Aura power set.

 

2. You don't want to play a Stalker nor tank, you hate runners, and you want to play an armor set that isn't Bio Armor, Invulnerability, or Shield Defense.  Other armor sets either have a stronger taunt aura on Brutes compared to Scrappers, or have a taunt aura at all on Brutes compared to no taunt aura on Scrappers.

 

Other than that, in all other cases you are better off playing a Scrapper or Tanker, objectively.

 

Now just for funsies or for feel, those are different things.

 

 

Thanks that's just the kind of response I was looking for, I was tying to see if maybe there was some other way to look at it. Like what am I missing mechanically. 

[Outrider_01]

Scrapper - Lower resist, random burst damage in crits

Tank - Higher resist, higher target cap

Brute - Tanker resist, extra 3 DMG enhancements in fury bar, higher damage cap, smaller target cap

 

  Tanks are the jock, scrappers are the flashy show off, stalkers are the quiet kid, and the Brutes the middle emo goth edge lord brother that just blow right through everything.

[Apparition]

12 minutes ago, DreadShinobi said:

The swing factor for me was the tanker patch.

 

Pre-tank patch - Fiery Aura is a great brute set

Post-tank patch - I pretend the archetype doesn't exist anymore.

 

 

Yep.  I know that the legion of old school Tanker fans will say that everything about Brutes and Tankers right now is just fine, but it isn't.  The Issue 26, Page Four patch overbuffed Tankers to the point that there's now very little objective reason to make a Brute other than for farming, and even then there's an argument to be made in favor of the Tanker.  IMO, the Tanker melee damage modifier needs to be nerfed back to 0.85, or if the developers are dead set against that, then Brute's melee damage modifier needs to be increased.  Otherwise there will continue to be very little reason to make a Brute.

[Sovera]

I feel that I can speak based on my recent experience leveling a Brute.

 

 

- You level a Brute because you want to do more damage than a Tanker. Not all builds are equal, but the last build I did broke a pylon one minute faster than the same build as a Tanker. And it also has much better burst because of that.

 

- You level a Brute because all secondaries have agro grabbing auras which is not the case for a Scrapper. This may seem like a minor thing until we get mobs running away constantly (if solo). It also may be a minor thing if only playing the secondaries that have agro auras (Rad, Bio, etc), but there is a reason so few Scrappers go for Fire Armor.

 

- You level a Brute because you want to do steady higher damage instead of relying on crits. Scrapper damage is great. When it crits. When it does it's not that amazing. Now crits happen when they care to happen. A crit out of the bat after a BU and it happens for an AoE? Serotonin to the brain baby! But that's not something that happens all the time. And sometimes it happens when we don't care for it such as the mob going to die anyway and a crit is overdamage.

 

Why is a Scrapper so much better damage then? Because our tests are of Damage Per Second instead of Burst Damage. And because of that the Scrapper evens out. In regular gameplay we don't deal with DPS. Instead we deal with Burst. We go in, we explode a spawn, then mop the remains, then repeat.

 

Scrappers are still great damage and still worth to look at in terms of pure damage dealers because their ATOs are amazing. Brutes... welp... Their ATOs stupendously suck. I would personally like one of the to be half strength of the Tanker ATO and the other half strength of the Scrapper (not in crits of course, but something like 'each point of Fury instead of giving 1% damage gives 1.10% damage'. Or whatever. I'm not a balance dev but you get the idea. Having an ATO that gives Fury and an ATO that gives regen and recovery is pretty close to useless.

 

In terms of defense yep, Tanker has much better numbers. But that's normal. A Scrapper does more damage but is squishy, a Tanker is sturdier but does less damage. The Brute is the middle version of both. We know this. Nothing has changed.

 

 

Edit: You also overstate how long it takes to reach full Fury. In my pylon test I got too full Fury in 10-15 seconds. This is not a good example because the pylon only hits every 5-6 seconds. We get Fury when we are swung at so in normal gameplay the first 10 seconds of a fight the Brute will be at full. Then it will degenerate between spawns, but the same patch that buffed Tankers also buffed both Fury generation and minimized Fury degeneration.

 

Edited September 27, 2021 by Sovera

[No Gods No Kings]

24 minutes ago, Sovera said:

I feel that I can speak based on my recent experience leveling a Brute.

 

 

- You level a Brute because you want to do more damage than a Tanker. Not all builds are equal, but the last build I did broke a pylon one minute faster than the same build as a Tanker. And it also has much better burst because of that.

 

- You level a Brute because all secondaries have agro grabbing auras which is not the case for a Scrapper. This may seem like a minor thing until we get mobs running away constantly (if solo). It also may be a minor thing if only playing the secondaries that have agro auras (Rad, Bio, etc), but there is a reason so few Scrappers go for Fire Armor.

 

- You level a Brute because you want to do steady higher damage instead of relying on crits. Scrapper damage is great. When it crits. When it does it's not that amazing. Now crits happen when they care to happen. A crit out of the bat after a BU and it happens for an AoE? Serotonin to the brain baby! But that's not something that happens all the time. And sometimes it happens when we don't care for it such as the mob going to die anyway and a crit is overdamage.

 

Why is a Scrapper so much better damage then? Because our tests are of Damage Per Second instead of Burst Damage. And because of that the Scrapper evens out. In regular gameplay we don't deal with DPS. Instead we deal with Burst. We go in, we explode a spawn, then mop the remains, then repeat.

 

Scrappers are still great damage and still worth to look at in terms of pure damage dealers because their ATOs are amazing. Brutes... welp... Their ATOs stupendously suck. I would personally like one of the to be half strength of the Tanker ATO and the other half strength of the Scrapper (not in crits of course, but something like 'each point of Fury instead of giving 1% damage gives 1.10% damage'. Or whatever. I'm not a balance dev but you get the idea. Having an ATO that gives Fury and an ATO that gives regen and recovery is pretty close to useless.

 

In terms of defense yep, Tanker has much better numbers. But that's normal. A Scrapper does more damage but is squishy, a Tanker is sturdier but does less damage. The Brute is the middle version of both. We know this. Nothing has changed.

 

 

Edit: You also overstate how long it takes to reach full Fury. In my pylon test I got too full Fury in 10-15 seconds. This is not a good example because the pylon only hits every 5-6 seconds. We get Fury when we are swung at so in normal gameplay the first 10 seconds of a fight the Brute will be at full. Then it will degenerate between spawns, but the same patch that buffed Tankers also buffed both Fury generation and minimized Fury degeneration.

 

 

I agree with what you are saying about the scrapper sometimes having his crit be overkill, and that tends to be how the game goes most of the time. Which I think accentuates my question about brutes. It seems like they thrive best in some unnatural situation like a farm or pylon Test. 

 

I actually have a Fire/MA based of you build so thanks for that lol. So question then is still what Primary/ Secondary set would you say plays most to the Brutes strength? 

[Sovera]

2 minutes ago, No Gods No Kings said:

 

I agree with what you are saying about the scrapper sometimes having his crit be overkill, and that tends to be how the game goes most of the time. Which I think accentuates my question about brutes. It seems like they thrive best in some unnatural situation like a farm or pylon Test. 

 

I actually have a Fire/MA based of you build so thanks for that lol. So question then is still what Primary/ Secondary set would you say plays most to the Brutes strength? 

 

It's more the reverse. Pylons are where Scrappers work best. Probably farms too. There is no pause in the damage ergo it's sustained damage. I know my Claws/Bio can do it for infinity at +4x8 other than occasionally healing and the constant AoE crits are a darn pleasure to watch. It works because Claws' Shockwave is so quick to recharge the mobs barely have time to get up before being bounced back down again.

 

Math wise Claws doesn't work so well for Brutes. In practical terms Claws is so good it works with everything, but math doesn't back me up in this. Energy Aura is definitely what works best for a Brute. I've had good results with Fire Armor that left it at near Tanker levels but the progression isn't as good as on a Tanker (Burn at level 18 pls).

 

But your question was made in the past, you'll probably find it page 2 or 3.

[Ukase]

2 hours ago, No Gods No Kings said:

TLDR: What power combination makes Brutes standout from the other Melee Classes?

Simply put: Fury is more consistent than a critical hit. 

Scrappers do NOT blow brutes out of the water. That is a fallacy. They may at times out dps a brute, but that's not consistent. You never know when you're gonna get a crit. But, a brute knows they're going to get fury.  There is more to my stating that it's a fallacy than you might think. 

Some may say that a scrapper out-performs a brute on a pylon test. I would counter with - "Oh? That pylon that doesn't run away?" 
Play a fiery aura scrapper and you'll see what I mean. It's annoying. Pylon tests are only indicative of a scrapper's superior performance against a pylon. No more, no less. Additionally, some folks may be able to make the most out of a scrapper's build. I may not be one of those people. But I can make the most out of my brute's build. Ergo - for me, the brute is a superior choice. I mean, it's not even close. I'd pick a blaster over a scrapper, too. I'd pick a tank over a scrapper, too. They're that bad. (For me) 

Brutes have higher HP than scrappers. Thus, they have higher regen. Brutes have an inherent taunt aura. Scrappers do not. Brutes do not need to chase foes. Scrappers do. 

These are the reasons why I play a brute over a scrapper. 

As for the best primary/secondary combo - for me, I really like the Spines/Rad brute. I love my spines/fire, but there's no defense debuff resistance, unless you consider Ageless. The spines is good primarily because of impale being a ranged attack, you can slot a set of winter-Os in there, as well as in ripper and throw spines, and lung or barb. That's all the winter-Os which help a lot with recovery & s/l defense. (some winter sets do great with fire defense - which is great for a fire farmer, but not really needed. But, either way, the spines primary allows for a purple set in each category except for holds - but you can cover that in your epic if you choose. This increases the ability to get high recharge which never hurts. Rad armor is a great set, imo, to chase recharge. The faster your recharge, the higher your damage and regen. 

Edited September 27, 2021 by Ukase

[The_Warpact]

Et tu, brute?

 

 

Just because.....yeah I've played scrappers never been really impressed I'm not a numbers cruncher on alot of ATs. That being said brutes I just love the wild action, I play tanks to go up against anything and survive, stalkers are ok, I prefer them to scrappers. 

I started and stayed on redside so brutes have been the unstoppable monster, until tanks got their buff and now they're ok.

[SomeGuy]

Brutes are pretty well between tanker and scrappers, damage and survivability wise. Just comes down to what you value more, and if you can't decide, you Brute. Then probably never look back. They are an awesome class, and the game really was City of Brutes at one point. Everyone played a brute. The DPS is really predictable (this is a good thing IMO) and so is the survivability.

 

But why a Brute...You want to do more than Tanker DPS, but want to live more than a scrapper/stalker. Or you want to do damage similar (but not quite) as well as a scrapper/stalker but want a taunt aura. A lack of taunt aura is why I won't do Fiery Aura on anything other than a Brute. And boy howdy, FA is fun.

[Doomguide2005]

The other place Brutes will edge out Scrappers and Tankers for damage output.  When teaming with Kinetics (Corruptors, Controllers, Defenders) in the post Fulcrum Shift world.  "Helloooo, my big beautiful damage cap."

[Without_Pause]

One of the few combos I would do would be Savage/rad. ST won't be great, but Savage is end friendly and offers +recharge which is what /rad wants. Fury fuels the DoT of Savage. Lots of potential in AoEs, It is more fury than smash, but still brutish. Mine is level 14.

[DreadShinobi]

3 hours ago, Doomguide2005 said:

The other place Brutes will edge out Scrappers and Tankers for damage output.  When teaming with Kinetics (Corruptors, Controllers, Defenders) in the post Fulcrum Shift world.  "Helloooo, my big beautiful damage cap."

This is a misconception. Brutes have low base damage - every 1% increase to their damage is less beneficial than that same 1% applied to a tanker, scrapper, or stalker. Tankers also had their damage cap increased substantially and brute dmg cap was lowered by a tiny amount to address that already. While brutes have a gargantuan dmg cap about 190% of that is to provide room for fury. That 775% bright blue number in your combat attributes might look pretty but it is not as large a difference as you make it out to be compared to another melee archetype sitting on a 400% bright blue number. The maths around this were broken down ad nauseum over im the beta feedback threads regarding the tanker changes. This is also very unfortunate around the usage of +dmg set bonuses and red insps for brutes.

Edited September 28, 2021 by DreadShinobi

[StriderIV]

I found @Darkir’s Savage/Bio combo to be optimal on a Brute (if you want to do that particular combo). Both Savage Melee and Bio Armor’s DOTS are affected by Brute’s fury. Ends up being a ton of little orange numbers going off at a time and mobs tend to drop pretty quickly.

[Elia87]

38 minutes ago, StriderIV said:

I found @Darkir’s Savage/Bio combo to be optimal on a Brute (if you want to do that particular combo). Both Savage Melee and Bio Armor’s DOTS are affected by Brute’s fury. Ends up being a ton of little orange numbers going off at a time and mobs tend to drop pretty quickly.

What about savage/dark brute? Better or worse than /bio?

[Hyperstrike]

10 hours ago, Apparition said:

The Issue 26, Page Four patch overbuffed Tankers

[Bill Z Bubba]

Yes, tanks were overbuffed at last pass. But it don't matter cuz nuthin's gettin changed.

 

If you team all the time and aren't concerned with solo gameplay, the brute will often shine thanks to all the incoming buffs from your teammates on either the damage or mitigation sides of things. While rare, sure, a brute at the caps is a sight to behold.

 

Solo, however, a brute falls behind both the scrapper and the tank. Who the hell wants almost tank damage with almost scrapper mitigation values? Yes, the taunt auras and the ability to take Taunt are nice. EDIT: Yea, that's a glass half-empty view. You could say that the brute has slightly better damage than the tank with slightly better mitigation thanks to higher HP and caps than the scrapper but you're still dishing out less damage than the scrapper and taking a hell of a lot more damage than the tank.

 

That said, chasing fury can be its own reward. It's a nice reason to fully give in to the scrapperlock.

Edited September 28, 2021 by Bill Z Bubba

[krj12]

I play a Brute because it still does more DPS than the comparable tanker, and has most of the tank's survivability.

Considering I still see a lot more brutes being played than tankers when I run a TF, I dont think the player base as 

a whole seems to have an issue.

[Without_Pause]

4 hours ago, Elia87 said:

What about savage/dark brute? Better or worse than /bio?

Worse from the stand point of /dark only really having the heal in terms of needing things to recharge and Savage fueling recharge. Both secondaries should put out more damage respectively though. It is just /bio is known for its offense. Saying that, I have a low level Dark/savage tank.

[No Gods No Kings]

Ok thanks all. What I'm taking away is I need to look at combo defenses like, Will Power, Bio to spread out the survivability gap between a brute and a scrapper, and when picking primary look for damage auras, dots eg: savage, spines, maybe fire?

 

I enjoy the class I was just curious what combos maybe play most to the Brute's strengths. Thinking maybe make a Savage/ Bio or Savage/ WP. 

[Without_Pause]

I would personally like a Savage/wp, but I would pick something like /elec which offers a heal and +recharge. /elec has end recovery, but Savage is lighter on end usage. Not saying /elec is better than /wp. My main here is a Claws/wp brute. I'm just saying as a brute stacked +recharge will be fun, see Savage/rad.

[Elia87]

59 minutes ago, Without_Pause said:

Worse from the stand point of /dark only really having the heal in terms of needing things to recharge and Savage fueling recharge. Both secondaries should put out more damage respectively though. It is just /bio is known for its offense. Saying that, I have a low level Dark/savage tank.

I rolled a sav/dark brute..I wanted that dmg high, maybe i should roll /something else