Focused Feedback: Electrical Blast Revamp

[DarknessEternal]

3 hours ago, ScarySai said:

Honestly, if the single target damage on tesla cage gets bumped up a lot, be it a hilariously roided out shock proc or a base damage buff, I'd call the set perfect.

 

Though, aoe proccing static would also be very nice.

Tesla Cage's chain lightning doesn't carry procs.  So it's just always terrible damage.

[ScarySai]

If the damage either built up faster, or just flatly hit hard instead of building up to it in the chain, the aoe would be okay. As it stands, you only really hit the last three targets notably hard.

 

In line with the aoe static change though, Thunder Strike should probably grant it now.

Edited November 16, 2021 by ScarySai

[Carnifax]

On 11/14/2021 at 9:09 PM, oedipus_tex said:

I am excited that you are encouraging new build strategies. However, I'd like to see the direction for powersets with vulnerable mezz toggles to trend more toward suppression on mezz versus a full detoggle

Hell I'd be stoked if it could just get a pass now.

 

Nature really suffers from it too. 

 

And while you're at it why not make kheld toggles and pool powers also supress when in forms (if it's low hanging fruit). Although personally I think pool powers toggles should persist through forms (if that's lower hanging fruit just do that instead )

Edited November 16, 2021 by Carnifax

[nihilii]

I love love love VS as a toggle. For me, it is all pros.

 

Previously: if I want VS, I must to spend a 3.3s cast and aim a target reticle (or make a macro for it). Every. Single. Minute.
 

Now: if I get mezzed, I have to recast VS.

As long as I don't get mezzed at least twice per minute, I'm better off; and if I'm getting mezzed that often, I probably have bigger concerns and VS' tiny pew pew won't save my hide anyway.

[Communistpenguin]

Am I the only one to take Tesla Cage to use as a hold? I have the proc that adds a chance at +2 mag hold and its a solid boss holding power.

[Wavicle]

2 hours ago, Communistpenguin said:

Am I the only one to take Tesla Cage to use as a hold? I have the proc that adds a chance at +2 mag hold and its a solid boss holding power.

 

You are not the only one, no.

 

The changes to Tesla Cage may not make it a must take power for the min maxers but many players will like it, I think.

[DarknessEternal]

13 hours ago, Communistpenguin said:

Am I the only one to take Tesla Cage to use as a hold? I have the proc that adds a chance at +2 mag hold and its a solid boss holding power.

Lots of people take Tesla Cage as a hold.  Single target holds are important to blasters.

 

The feedback in this thread is that the changes to Tesla Cage are sort of pointless since they do nothing to change Tesla Cage into anything new and its sole purpose and use is still single target hold.

[Generator]

16 hours ago, Communistpenguin said:

Am I the only one to take Tesla Cage to use as a hold? I have the proc that adds a chance at +2 mag hold and its a solid boss holding power.

Hell no.  Hold is gold, I always say (if we generously redefine "'always" to include "stuff I just came up with"). Used it that way since my very first Elec Blaster in Apr '04.

Edited November 17, 2021 by Generator
spelling

[ForeverLaxx]

3 hours ago, DarknessEternal said:

The feedback in this thread is that the changes to Tesla Cage are sort of pointless since they do nothing to change Tesla Cage into anything new and its sole purpose and use is still single target hold

I don't really see that as a problem, personally. The whole set got bumped with the Shock mechanic, essentially making the entire set better by default. I think most of the complaints are from people who want Tesla Cage to be a stronger, more "reliable" AoE damage button instead of a Hold and I don't think they're going to get that. It's just a bit of residual, extra AoE in a set that already has 3 AoE buttons to its name.

 

A single-target Hold is decent for a Blaster, though only if you can stack it with other Hold effects (usually). Luckily, Blasters have access to Holds in more than one place so that shouldn't stop people from taking this power for its intended purpose. I think we're just seeing people who are upset that the changes to Tesla Cage aren't changing the power's entire identity, making it still a "bad choice" for people who only play this game with maximum enemy saturation so they inherently undervalue anything that doesn't delete spawns in 3 seconds or less.

Edited November 17, 2021 by ForeverLaxx

[DarknessEternal]

7 hours ago, ForeverLaxx said:

I don't really see that as a problem, personally. The whole set got bumped with the Shock mechanic, essentially making the entire set better by default. I think most of the complaints are from people who want Tesla Cage to be a stronger, more "reliable" AoE damage button instead of a Hold and I don't think they're going to get that. It's just a bit of residual, extra AoE in a set that already has 3 AoE buttons to its name.

The real problem is that Tesla Cage is the worst single target electricity hold available to Blasters.

 

Shocking Grasp and Shocking Bolt are both light years better.  Tesla Cage needs something.  The current beta of this something just doesn't accomplish this.

[Glacier Peak]

8 minutes ago, DarknessEternal said:

The real problem is that Tesla Cage is the worst single target electricity hold available to Blasters.

What are you comparing this to? A T9 from a Blaster Secondary? That's not a good faith comparison. How about if you look at other Blaster primary powersets, maybe even around the same Level. There's Abyssal Gaze that's also available at Level 18 from Dark Blast, but Telsa Cage recharges twice as fast, costs less endurance, and does the same Mag 3 hold for the same duration. Tesla Cage is even comparable to Ice Blast's Bitter Freeze Ray, but that power is only available at Level 26. 

[DarknessEternal]

The point is that Tesla Cage is not the electric hold Blasters are taking.

[ForeverLaxx]

1 hour ago, DarknessEternal said:

The real problem is that Tesla Cage is the worst single target electricity hold available to Blasters.

 

Shocking Grasp and Shocking Bolt are both light years better.  Tesla Cage needs something.  The current beta of this something just doesn't accomplish this.

What are you talking about? Shocking Grasp is more of a damaging attack than it is a Hold, plus it's a T9. It only lasts 1.5 seconds longer than Tesla Cage but has a recharge rate that's 50% longer. On top of that, it costs almost 3 times as much Endurance per cast and is melee range.

 

Shocking Bolt being "better" than Tesla Cage is just an opinion. Sure, Bolt lasts longer by default, but it also takes longer to recharge. It also costs more Endurance to use. They both deal so little damage that Bolt doing slightly more is meaningless. Other than having a bit more range, the only thing you get out of Shocking Bolt more reliably than Tesla Cage is that it's better suited to procs. It's not really fair to fault a power based on its procability, particularly in light of the fact both sets existed long before IOs were ever a thing.

 

All of Elec Blast just got a boost with this Shocked mechanic. They didn't have to touch Tesla Cage at all and everything I said above would still be true. Despite that, it has some minor AoE added to it, further differentiating itself from your examples, but that's not good enough because... why? Because of your (in my opinion) bad opinion about how it compares to its "themed competition?"

[Glacier Peak]

7 hours ago, DarknessEternal said:

The point is that Tesla Cage is not the electric hold Blasters are taking.

That is not a point at all. How do you even know this? Did you ask every Blaster player this question?

 

You could just say it's a power you're not taking for whatever reason, but instead you're claiming a consensus among Blasters that they are not choosing this power. Where is the evidence to support this? Explain why it's a power you're not taking.

[KaizenSoze]

8 hours ago, DarknessEternal said:

The point is that Tesla Cage is not the electric hold Blasters are taking.

Take this from someone who doesn't think Tesla Cage is all that great.

 

Making these kinds of absolute statements does not help your argument.

 

I think TS is not mandatory, I can build strong sappers with continuous attack chains w/o it. Even though the devs obviously want players to take it.

 

As I said before, if they would counterintuitively raise the recharge it would proc better or add damage or lengthen the chain jumps so it would hit more targets.

 

I think it needs some tweaking, but it's not garbage.

[arcane]

On 11/15/2021 at 12:25 PM, Sovera said:

I don't grap why there is a schism between defensive and offensive toggles. Defensive toggles suppress when CCed. Offensive toggles drop and need to be retoggled.

 

Why? What does distinction add? What's it's purpose? What does it add to the game?

 

Because-it-has-always-been-like-that needs to be looked at.

The distinction exists because they were all the same until the devs generously blessed 90% of your toggles with a massive buff. 
 

Toggles dropping adds difficulty to the game as it puts a time constraint on how quickly you can get back to 100% in the middle of the action. 
 

We don’t need to continue stripping this game of every last annoyance or inconvenience, so no thanks from me.

 

I do agree Kheldians need suppression because they have a motivation to initiate a toggle-dropping power themselves. But for every other AT, it’s just asking for one more tiny problem to be bulldozed out of your way in a game that’s already gotten 10x easier.

Edited November 18, 2021 by arcane

[Proteus50]

In my limited testing of this. This is what I have found. 

 

Makes my Elec/Elec Sentinel much better. I never took VS before. I have a reason to take it now. I would drop Havoc Punch from my current build and replace it with VS. One of my issues with VS however is that it doesn't seem to track close to me. I find myself always looking around for where it is compared to my position.  I would also work to get to T4 on my Alpha and Interface to maximize end mod now since I actually benefit from the Shocked mechanic.

 

My Elec/Kin Defender however has a different issue. VS is better yes but because he has no inherent way to limit being stunned, VS can become pointless depending on what mob he is fighting. For example fighting Warriors.. pretty solid. Fighting the mezz happy Ritki.. pointless power. Also the distance between VS and the Defender is an issue because it can sometimes aggro mobs I'm not ready to deal with.  It is a better Sapper although not as good as the Sentinel. 

I had an issue with Tesla Cage on both. It does decent damage on my Sentinel and the Defender has it proc'd out but it does seem like it fires the proc's often enough. Its possible like others have said maybe if a few seconds were added to rechage ( like 2 seconds )  There has to be an improvement on the Static build up mechanic. It didn't build fast enough to be reliable. Blasters will probably build it up well because of the secondary. I concur that static should be built across the AoEs as well, but to a lesser extent.
 

I will try a blaster build next.

 

 

Edited November 18, 2021 by Proteus50

[aethereal]

Sentinels seem like they're obviously the huge winners on the Voltaic Sentinel and Tesla cage changes, since they largely do not need to fear being mezzed ever, and they use Tesla Cage as part of their attack chain and so getting some AoE out of it is gravy, rather than something where they have to try to cram into their lives.

[Carnifax]

2 hours ago, arcane said:

 

I do agree Kheldians need suppression because they have a motivation to initiate a toggle-dropping power themselves. 

Specifically for Khelds in forms all the toggles which drop (including proposed Power Pool powers) are, with one exception, Defensive as well. So them supressing rather than dropping in forms makes sense. 

 

Orbiting Debt is the only offensive one and I wouldn't weep if that was the only exception in this specific case.

 

Although like I said in the original post Pool Power toggles should really stay up through forms (and manual powers like Hasten should be allowed to be cast, although animations potentially raise their heads then). Kheld defensive toggles should supress. Kheld offensive toggle(s) should drop. 

 

All that being said I'd love to see a few more Kheld powers get the Shadow Bolt / Ebon Eye treatment and be available in forms too (Orbiting Death for WS lobsters and maybe the Cone stun for Nova). Not sure what the equivelent for PBs is. 

 

And I know I'm digressing here from the subject and should stop. So I will 🙂

[Wavicle]

4 hours ago, Proteus50 said:

 

 

My Elec/Kin Defender however has a different issue. VS is better yes but because he has no inherent way to limit being stunned, VS can become pointless depending on what mob he is fighting. For example fighting Warriors.. pretty solid. Fighting the mezz happy Ritki.. pointless power.

 

 

break free, defense, Hold, Teammates. calling it a pointless power just indicates that you haven’t figured out how to handle mez on your toon.

[Wavicle]

2 hours ago, Carnifax said:

Specifically for Khelds in forms all the toggles which drop (including proposed Power Pool powers) are, with one exception, Defensive as well. So them supressing rather than dropping in forms makes sense. 

 

Orbiting Debt is the only offensive one and I wouldn't weep if that was the only exception in this specific case.

 

Although like I said in the original post Pool Power toggles should really stay up through forms (and manual powers like Hasten should be allowed to be cast, although animations potentially raise their heads then). Kheld defensive toggles should supress. Kheld offensive toggle(s) should drop. 

 

All that being said I'd love to see a few more Kheld powers get the Shadow Bolt / Ebon Eye treatment and be available in forms too (Orbiting Death for WS lobsters and maybe the Cone stun for Nova). Not sure what the equivelent for PBs is. 

 

And I know I'm digressing here from the subject and should stop. So I will 🙂

WS also has Inky Aspect.

 

 That said, Kheldians can both Cap damage res with click powers, so making their damage res toggles suppress isn’t really necessary, not to mention they would still have to pay the end cost on the suppressed toggles.

[oedipus_tex]

6 hours ago, arcane said:

The distinction exists because they were all the same until the devs generously blessed 90% of your toggles with a massive buff. 
 

Toggles dropping adds difficulty to the game as it puts a time constraint on how quickly you can get back to 100% in the middle of the action. 
 

We don’t need to continue stripping this game of every last annoyance or inconvenience, so no thanks from me.

 

I do agree Kheldians need suppression because they have a motivation to initiate a toggle-dropping power themselves. But for every other AT, it’s just asking for one more tiny problem to be bulldozed out of your way in a game that’s already gotten 10x easier.

 

 

Melee characters were already given this treatment for the most part. There's a solution to the mezz problem, but its bringing the archetypes closer together and making mezz meaningful for everyone, not making mezz even worse for the archetypes who already have to deal with it.

 

If we want to have mezz start shutting down Melee toggles I'm down for it. If the answer is "No that's annoying" I'm like, "Yes. It is." 🙂

Edited November 18, 2021 by oedipus_tex

[Wavicle]

10 minutes ago, oedipus_tex said:

 

 

Melee characters were already given this treatment for the most part. There's a solution to the mezz problem, but its bringing the archetypes closer together and making mezz meaningful for everyone, not making mezz even worse for the archetypes who already have to deal with it.

 

If we want to have mezz start shutting down Melee toggles I'm down for it. If the answer is "No that's annoying" I'm like, "Yes. It is." 🙂

 

So maybe reduce Armor mez protection from 10 down to like 5, add mez protection of about 2 or 3 to most squishies, make all player toggles suppress, and then pray that you haven't completely broken some aspect of the game with all that?

[oedipus_tex]

1 minute ago, Wavicle said:

 

So maybe reduce Armor mez protection from 10 down to like 5, add mez protection of about 2 or 3 to most squishies, make all player toggles suppress, and then pray that you haven't completely broken some aspect of the game with all that?

 

 

I think the solution is harder to come up with than identification of the problem. Overall I think the issue evolved over a timeline similar to this:

• Way too many throwaway enemies have "nuisance mezz" with high magnitude and chance to proc
• In compensation, melee characters were made nearly immune to these mezzes and simply disregard them
• To help unarmored characters keep up, various methods were added to give them their own less perfect ways to disregard mezz
• Toggle powers on squishies that are meant to be occasionally punished end up at ground zero and obtaining mezz protection becomes the major focus of the build. Every 1 second Sleep on a minion becomes a life threatening emergency (less so for this particular power, but in general) 

 

The true long term solution I think is to backtrack and remove a lot of the throwaway mezz hurled by minions and lieutenant level enemies, so that mezz is a major event. The ITF is a great example of an environment designed this way, and that's partly why that TF is so popular.  

 

Since a full rebalance is unlikely, a good tradeoff would at least be to not make the archetypes who already deal with mezz situation even worse. If making mezz threatening is a goal, we need to be looking at the archetypes who are currently completely disregarding it, not doubling down for the archetypes who are already dealing with it.

[ScarySai]

Getting a little off topic, dudes.